Department store security authority

[Ezekiel]

how often do you let suspicious people leave your store, [knowing] that you dont have positive evidence they are thieves?

About as often as cops let "known guilty parties" go because they don't -- yet -- have enough for a conviction. It happens with some regularity, I'll admit. Being wrong is my phobia: it's not a career-wrecker, per se, but you can forget about further promotion...

 

[extremefishin00]

mfree,

I'm not quite sure what you're implying with the last statement you made. Do you care to explain how I'm going to make someone very, very, wealthy one day? I'm not sure where I came off as having let my ego get on top of myself.

Sindawe,

If I stopped going to a merchant just because I ran into one jerk that worked for them, I'd never have any place to shop. One reason why I wish we still sold ammunition at Target, I despise going into Wal-Mart.

Ezekiel,

I'm not sure if you've heard this or not, but I seem to remember my ETL-AP or DAPTL telling me the average loss to an external shoplifter is between $10-$100. The average loss to an internal is over $1000. Probably why Target is so big on finding internal theft.

Chris

 

[Big Gay Al]

I worked in the Private security field in the Chicago area for over 10 years. During that time I was ALWAYS paid above minimum wage. Sometimes it wasn't much over, and other times it was at least double what the minimum wage was. A lot of it depended on the clientele that the agency had.

It always amazed me that people could have very expensive things they wanted to keep secure, but when it came to security, they didn't always want to spend a lot.

 

[Edmond]

It always amazed me that people could have very expensive things they wanted to keep secure, but when it came to security, they didn't always want to spend a lot.

Yeah, it doesn't make any sense at all. Then again, some of us (me included) have our garage filled with junk while the car that we spent thousands on sits outside to endure the weather. LOL.

 

[Mark in California]

Law Enforcement Agencies have only been around for the last 150 to 250 years. Before that everyone was responsible for giving “The Hue and The Cry†for any crime they witnessed so the kings soliders could respond. To fail to respond was a violation of law and punished as such. Law Enforcement started as an outgrowth of firemen. The night watch was essentially a look out for fire; the most dangerous enemy man had. This grew into private security (paid for by business and neiborhoods) and finally the start of civil authority policing. The London Police Department is supposed to have been the first police department founded.

The Constitution names all citizens as Sovereigns. We are all responsible for policing under the Constitution and the tradition of “The Hue and The Cryâ€. The addition of police forces in America was to aid the citizens in law enforcement, not to replace them.

Now some think that only the police can respond to a crime and arrest the guilty. They are just giving up to the government a Right granted by the Constitution.

I have read here that some states do not allow their citizens (subjects) to make a legal citizen arrest. Well, for all its faults, California allows its citizens to fully enforce the law for the protection of self, city, county, and state.

To answer the question asked: If they simply wanted to see my receipt, I would show it to them and then be on my way. Life is just too short to get bothered about a business transaction. It may be your property in the bag, but you are still on their property. They have as much a right to safe guard their property, the front door, as you do to the items you purchased. They are simply asking you to show your receipt to the “customer services types†at the front door.

If stopped and asked to come back inside I would demand the police be called. I would wait there until the police arrived. I would admit nothing and listen to everything. If anyone tried to move me before the police arrived I would start yelling for some one to call the police or if need be yell FIRE. I would continue to yelling until the police arrive.

 

[Ezekiel]

I would continue yelling until the police arrive.

On your ass, in cuffs, in the detention room. If I'm wrong, you're a rich man.

Of course, since you'll never offer the burden of proof (i.e., "be guilty") for this to occur, the whole point is moot. Still, I cannot stress enough: once a determination has been made to detain someone, there is nothing short of 100% committment. Making "noise" at the door will have no effect...

 

[Mark in California]

Ezekiel:

I understand what you are saying. That is why I would Volunteer to wait at the door for the police. I would hope loss prevention would take the easier road rather than a violent take down. Given a choice, they might wait. In California, you can only hold a shoplifter so long. Waiting four hours for the police to arrive is too long. I have been part of loss prevention teams that have had to let shoplifters go because the police can not respond in time.

I would never put myself into a situation to be arrested for shoplifting or anything else. But if I should be approached, I would be wary of something being planted on me. If I was removed to a isolated area where they control everything, this becomes very easiy, since I would be in cuffs, they control/inventory everything and there are no outside witnesses. Loss prevention has to much to lose if they are wrong.

If I am not given the option, then I yell, and yell loud, long and hard that there is a fire and you are not taking me in there to burn to death. That might give Loss Prevention other problems, like people leaving the store because they think a fire has started. Opening fire doors, and setting off alarms.

At that point, it would be my only option.

 

[Ezekiel]

I would be wary of something being planted on me. If I was removed to a isolated area where they control everything, this becomes very easiy, since I would be in cuffs, they control/inventory everything and there are no outside witnesses.

This is the primary reason why my corporation videotapes everything (including the detention area) and is quite careful about apprehending folks. We want our integrity to be beyond reproach. If there is an ugly scene with an innocent involved, I couldn't hide it if I wanted to. Still, this is a valid concern -- I presume -- with less reputable organizations.

Excellent discourse.

 

[LiquidTension]

The little brother of a guy I used to know got busted by Best Buy LP for stuffing several CDs in his pants. They took him into the security office (a closet-sized room next to the LP desk) and told him that they knew he had the stuff, and that he should give it up or it would be worse when the police arrived. He refused, had an attitude, etc. The LP guy left him in the room to go meet the police. STUPID. The kid pulled the CDs out of his pants and tossed them behind a file cabinet where they couldn't be seen. After the cops got there, they were all baffled as to where the CDs went He got off with only being banned from the store. They had him on video, but couldn't produce the goods when the cops got there. Pretty funny if you ask me. I wonder if those cds are still back there?

 

[pete f]

If this would happen to me I would make sure i was postioned close to a wall or fixture so that my weapong was secured and then...

I would just say NO.

Then i say I will cooperate with you but we will do this in private with the store manager and the MOD present. I then show them my carry permit and my license and say Now do you understand why we are not going to do this out in the public. Letting the LP person understand that you are not a threat but are armed is going to drastically change his attitude that he is in control.

 

[Ezekiel]

Letting the LP person understand that you are not a threat but are armed...

If you are armed, you are a threat (perception). You're right, things change in that situation. I'll not indicate in what manner, for fear of offending THR troops, but it [the result] is not fair to you: it doesn't matter at all to me.

You realize that all sorts of signs are going up at retailers across America indicating "property status" and that no weapons are allowed, right? Short of an immediate threat to my life, I would hesitate to enter a major retailer and have it be known that I was carrying. Why? The introduction of a handgun into a confrontational scenario is decidedly not "cooperating". That's the BEST thing that could occur. Outright public rioting (with injury), caused by YOU, is the worst.

The important thing to remember is this: 99% of all retail security and customer interactions are nothing but polite conversations that last <10 seconds. Anything besides this makes us more uncomfortable then you! It's a lot like an officer involved shooting. Once the shooting (righteous or not) ends, the real fun begins. (analysis, critique, investigation, etc.)

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Seems that if there is any consensus to this thread, it must be that those magnetic tags have to go.

Not long ago my wife and I were on vacation in South America. We walked INTO a department store in an urban mall and she set off the alarms. Security guy came over, we chatted, he clearly saw that we were on our way IN, and that was that. Naturally, the alarms went off again when we left, but we went out through the same door, talked to the same security guy, showed him the receipt for what we had bought, and everybody was happy.

Until we went into the next department store, and set off thier alarms. Same scenario, but this time we decided we'd had enough. Security guy was quite understanding, and the three of us went through every dang thing in her purse. Finally traced it to a security tag on a lipstick she had bought at Wal-Mart weeks before we left home.

Now I understand they're gearing up t use microchips instead of magnetic tags. I shudder to even consider the myriad ways those things are going to malfunction.

 

[SMMAssociates]

Hawk:

Great story....

I think there may be a market for home-deactivators....

Sometimes those tags are buried where you can't find them (or the store people can't find it to de-activate it), and you really never know what's going to set off what.

***
When confronted by a door-checker with a bad attitude, I think my play (OH requires notification!) would be to tell the checker: "I may be required by law to inform you that I have a CHL and am carrying. For everybody's safety, we will remain here until Uniformed LEO's turn up or you can show me active duty LEO ID. If you are active duty LE, I will cooperate as required by law. Otherwise we're staying out in the open."

Or something like that.... We're required to notify under almost all conditions if we're carrying, and who knows where they got that guy in the store.... A local grocery uses off-duty Township Brass - Lt's and Captains - and one of them looks like a teddy bear. You'd never guess.... Point being that we in OH must notify in all but the most trivial contact circumstances.

(IOW, I was in the local Best Buy dealing with a service issue when an off-duty LEO from another township showed up with his little girl to buy a computer. We chatted a bit, but I didn't say anything about the CHL or the bulge on my belt. That's fine. If, however, he asks to see my OL or something, then he'll get notification. Long thread on this elsewhere, but the issue is "Law Enforcement Related Contact". "May I talk to you, Sir?" probably doesn't require anything, but "Don't Move" probably does....)

Crazy world....

 

[extremefishin00]

Wallets seem to be one of the biggest culprits. A guest came in one day and beeped, and decided he'd had enough. He went through everything trying to figure out what was setting off the alarms. Turns out it was his wallet. Even then, we couldn't find the tag hidden in there, but at least now he knew why the alarms beeped everytime he came in or left.


Chris

 

[photobug]

I didn't get stopped by anybody at the door...

...and no sounds went off when I left the store. This is my first post and after reading almost all of these posts (not at one sitting) I thought I would chime in. I am a professional photographer. I do weddings, pro and college football games and car races. I took about six rolls of 35 mm film to Sam's Club to be developed and printed. While I was waiting at the counter to pick up the pictures I picked up a digital camera to look at before the cashier got to me. She finally came over to wait on me and I reach in my pocket to give her my ticket stub for the right pictures to pick up. I continue to look at the camera and as she comes back with the pictures I put the camera back down. I pay for my pictures and walk away to browse before I leave. I'm not looking around to see who's watching if I steal anything no sudden moves and just go about my business and I even show my receipt to the person at the door. No big deal to me. A year and a half later I am involved in a parking lot accident where a man backed into my car and messed the paint up. Since an individual is usually at fault when they hit the person in front of them, the guy in front backed into me. I wanted a police report for insurance purposes to get my car fixed and establish who is at fault. Police arrive and run my license and inform me there is a warrant for my arrest. The LEO was very nice and did not handcuff me in front of my daughter, she's 7, he let me make phone calls to have my child picked up and did not cuff me until right before we went inside the jail. That was very much appreciated. Back to the story, the charge was grand theft from Sam's Club. I was blown away. I've never had anything like that happen to me. Police report says that there is a video of me putting the camera in my pocket and leaving without paying. Time for discovery during the prosecution and I see the video and it is the worst quality, not clear at all and at NO time does a camera go in my pocket and the video proves it. Now i'm waitng for court again next week and a trial date will probably be set for Jan. or Feb. I'm looking forward to a trial or a dismissal. I don't believe the Prosecutor has even seen the video yet, so many cases in a big city.

I would have thought that the cashier would have said something if I had put something like that in my pocket because anytime my hand goes in my pocket she is in front of me. They video shows that too. It also shows me pick it up and put it down. I really thought Sam's Club would have better quality video to try and convict somebody with, but it is taking video every 2 or 3 sec and is jerky. Fortunately for me it will prove I didn't do it. What does amaze me is that a police officer and the loss prevention guy state in the police report that I "can clearly be seen put the camera in my pocket". I have shown this video to numerous people and asked them to just watch it and tell me what you see. Not one person has been able to see what the LEO and the LPO saw.

I decided to do some looking around on the internet and came across this thread. It seems that all of the "confrontations" at a store took place there at the store at that time not a year and a half later. One important part of my story not told yet is how they knew it was me. When I paid for the picures I gave my Sam's card to the cashier and I didn't get it back. I missed it a few months later but I didn't know where it was. I don't go there that often. I usually take the film elsewhere to be processed but I was in a hurry for these pictures. This is driving me crazy. Hard to sleep and eat like I used to and worrying about the outcome and potential loss of freedom but I feel confident that a jury will see what I see. These LPO"S must be on some sort of power trip.

One other intresting note on the video is that before i get to the counter there is a woman all over those cameras picking up different ones. It looks like she had more oppurtunity to take a camera than me. I'll just have to have my day in court.

 

[Edmond]

These LPO"S must be on some sort of power trip.

Oh, they are. From my interaction with them, they want to be like the cops but they don't have the skills to be a cop. They're given this "power" that is limited to being inside the store. And if you work at a place like I did where you have in-house LPO's, they like to go around and act like a hard@$$ and start stuff with the employees. It's also a "legitimate" reason for them to fire employees they don't like. Have the LPO spy on them for something and then give them the axe. It happens mostly to experienced employees on the higher end of the pay scale so it must be a coincidence.

My advice is to hire an expert to challenge that video and then counter-sue Sam's Club for damages.

 

[photobug]

Thanks for your response Edmond. I believe it would be best to have the criminal case against me over, with an acquittal or dismissal. When that happen's I will sue them for every charge a good lawyer can think of. I'm mad as hell about this and it's cost me a lot of money for bail, lawyer and lost time from work...not to mention the embarassment of being accused of such a ridiculous crime. I bet the LPO was giddy about the cost of the camera being just over $300 to make it a felony.

 

[Edmond]

Thanks for your response Edmond. I believe it would be best to have the criminal case against me over, with an acquittal or dismissal. When that happen's I will sue them for every charge a good lawyer can think of. I'm mad as hell about this and it's cost me a lot of money for bail, lawyer and lost time from work...not to mention the embarassment of being accused of such a ridiculous crime. I bet the LPO was giddy about the cost of the camera being just over $300 to make it a felony.

I work as a private investigator and one of our guys is considered an expert witness in video. He worked on a case last year where they acquitted a guy who was charged with stealing a lot of jewelry. The acussed ended up filing a lawsuit against the company but I never found out how it turned out.

I know it's cost you a lot of money and no amount of money will bring back the dignity that you lost because some wannabe made a mistake. Make sure that when you're acquitted, you get them back for every penny you spent and then some.

 

[coylh]

"Move along sir."

 

[NHBB]

lmao @ the moby posts... $$$

 

[jnojr]

Funny how if it's a police officer you spit on they call it assault. Double standard anyone? If somebody does spit in your face that is assault.

No.

It's misdemeanor battery.

And yes, if the spittee is a police officer or a regular Joe, it's the same charge. The difference is, a police officer cannot arrest you for a misdemeanor that s/he didn't witness. If you spit on a cop, guess what? He witnessed it If some guy runs up to a cop and says "That guy over there just spit on me!", the officer doesn't have enough PC at that point to arrest.

 

[SMMAssociates]

Jnojr:

An LEO advised of a misdemeanor committed out of his presence may not be able to arrest on the initial complaint, but if "the guy's over there" brought to his attention, the Officer may initiate all kinds of investigative actions that could result in arrest for other issues.

(The initial complaint may not be enough PC for much, but "what's that thing sticking out of your belt?" walk-overs are possible if the LEO's in the mood.)

Regards,

 

[Mark in California]

Update

Update:

When leaving Costco I failed the inspection. I had one too many items for my count. Their response was simply go to register 10 a manager will come and ring you up. It was never considered more that a checker error.

This was not a theft control, but a quality control/inventory control for the checkers. The most important thing they wanted to know is what check stand I went thru. I guess they got a goon dot for the day.

I will say you could have knocked over with a feather when they told me I had a box of frozen you that have not been paid. The were that specfic with a cart with $250 worth of goods. Was I carrying? Yes.

 

[m14rick]

Experience at book store

I was browsing in a book store, found a paperback I wanted to read, and while holding it in my hand, I went into the music section to browse oldies.
As I walked past the "cleverly hidden" chip detectors, the alarm went off. The two guys at the counter puffed out their chests and put their fight faces on as they headed toward me. Being an ex peace officer I immediatley stopped and held out the book. I had not selected any items from the music section. It turns out there was thingie between the pages of the book that set the alarm off. I had not passed the purchase point for books, only walked out of the music section.
While I can see their point, I was very ****ed, I don't do theft, I try as hard as I can to stay under the radar, and to be taken for a shoplifter was not good. I don't go in their damn music section anymore, either.

 

[SMMAssociates]

m14rick:

Here in OH, unless I misunderstood the law (old rent-a-cop), you have to try to leave the store to be a shoplifter.

Not that they can't watch you, ask for a receipt at the gate, etc....

Sure sounds like a good way to get 'em sued for "False Arrest"....

The whole thing makes little sense unless you must purchase the book in the "book area" and can't take it to another register someplace, which is a stupid way to run a railroad.

Just IMHO, but I wouldn't be back either, and I'd drop 'em a nastygram as to why.

Regards,