Derringers - Any practical value or just a range toy?
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Armybrat
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Didn’t Colt buy out Butler and have them continue making that little single shot with “Colt “stamped on top of the barrel?
My Dad bought this “Colt” used .22 Short at a gun show for $20 about 40 or 50 years ago.
JFrame
Member
That's the same set-up I got many, many moons ago... Probably the same time frame as yours...
My piece has gone through a couple of transformations since then. First, I went to the folding holster grip. For my use, I found that configuration too time-consuming to deploy, so I switched that out for a couple of simple rubber panels (the same form factor as the wood panels, but "grippier").
I also got a Thad Rybka pocket holster (the kind with the pouch which hold 5 extra rounds -- which I don't believe I've ever used
).
WestKentucky
Member
Kinda but no.
My understanding is that Colt contracted Butler to make them. Colt quit buying and Butler wasn’t ready to quit making so the Butler guns sold after the Colt contracts ran out. The “company” changed hands a few times without actually making anything, and last I heard there were still some leftover parts that could be assembled into brand new guns, or be used as replacement parts for existing guns. I’m afraid that at the material quality of all of the butler manufactured guns as shooters, that I overpaid, as did everybody else who owns one that wasn’t a gift. The zinc barrel is pure trash. I drilled mine deeper to take super Colibri ammo and that’s all mine ever sees now. $20 in the 70s might have been market value, and I got mine unfired for less than market value but I still overpaid.
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BSA1
member
Derringers are probably most dangerous to the user. The reason is when loading it is easy to point the muzzle of the barrels at yourself when closing the action. That is something I pay attention to when loading it. (I have a Davis Derringer in 32 Auto / 32 S&W as a novelty gun for CAS matches).
Wasn’t it the son of the owner of Bond Arms that managed to accidentally shoot and kill himself while handling one of their derringers?
I am not totally practical though. I want a NAA Ranger tip open 22 LR / Magnum mini-revolver for no earthly practical purpose.
Wasn’t it the son of the owner of Bond Arms that managed to accidentally shoot and kill himself while handling one of their derringers?
I am not totally practical though. I want a NAA Ranger tip open 22 LR / Magnum mini-revolver for no earthly practical purpose.
WestKentucky
Member
And what about THAT price tag??? If a $300 big bore high quality derringer is overpriced then what is the descriptive term for such a minuscule and complicated device?
BSA1
member
Like I said there is no earthly practical purpose for wanting one...
Waiting a minute. Since it has no practical purpose for use on earth maybe we can arm the new Space Force with it.
tactikel
Member
I had a 4 Barreled .22 short Derringer back in the '60s. Very hard to draw, cock and shoot. Sold it. Something like a KelTec p32 is a magnitude better. 6 ounces, 7 shots, just draw and pull the trigger.
Good Ol' Boy
Member
Novelty.
I have shot a BA .45/.410 and that's all they are.
Funny how some folks are throwing tiny REVOLVERS in with Derringers.
For any of these ultra super tiny guns I would say some at least basic HTH CQC training would vastly supersede having one of these toys, but to each their own.
I have shot a BA .45/.410 and that's all they are.
Funny how some folks are throwing tiny REVOLVERS in with Derringers.
For any of these ultra super tiny guns I would say some at least basic HTH CQC training would vastly supersede having one of these toys, but to each their own.
Good choice of words.
John Joseph
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A good friend has a Bond .357 in a leather shoot through holster he keeps in a hip pocket'
"Sure mister, you can have my wallet..."
He let me shoot it and the trigger is heavy, the recoil fierce and the report painful although for it's intended purpose it works for him.
He carries it everywhere.
Definitely not for everyone!
"Sure mister, you can have my wallet..."
He let me shoot it and the trigger is heavy, the recoil fierce and the report painful although for it's intended purpose it works for him.
He carries it everywhere.
Definitely not for everyone!
FlSwampRat
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TTv2
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There was a company years back that was going to make a centerfire version of the Brownie and the "barrels" were going to be interchangeable. They were going to be available in .32 ACP, .32 Mag, .380, and .38 Special.
They never got past the prototype stage and the company is no longer in business.
TTv2
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Product of the time and situation. Unless we're assassins in the mid 19th Century, what use is there for a derringer in 2020 for self defense compared to alternative options? I mean, if you're considering spending money on a gun, what sense does it make to buy a one or two shot derringer vs a $200 .38 revolver?
TTv2
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Do derringers have any practical value? Sure, if they were lighter, smaller, and cost $100, they'd have a lot of practical value, but when your options today are Cobra, Bond, and Cobray/Leinad, no, there is not practical value to them. The Bond's are the worst of them all, not because they're poorly made, but because their price, weight, and size are ridiculous compared to other guns currently available.
IMO, Bond Arms derringers only value is they look shiny and pretty and feel good; if you like $500 high quality fidget spinners, the Bond Arms is unbeatable.
Once you get down in price to $200 or less, that's when you're getting into a territory where if this is a gun you don't care about getting beat up or losing in a boating accident, then it may have a value and its value is that it's so cheap, it's a disposable, yet reliable gun. IMO, if you're looking to get a cheap derringer for that role, the Cobray/Leinads are great because they're the cheapest .410/.45 derringers you can buy and I feel that the larger bore and amount of shot is better.
And also because there's almost no rifling in them and I question if the shot even gets spun by the rifling, so the patterns aren't bad for 5 yards away.
IMO, Bond Arms derringers only value is they look shiny and pretty and feel good; if you like $500 high quality fidget spinners, the Bond Arms is unbeatable.
Once you get down in price to $200 or less, that's when you're getting into a territory where if this is a gun you don't care about getting beat up or losing in a boating accident, then it may have a value and its value is that it's so cheap, it's a disposable, yet reliable gun. IMO, if you're looking to get a cheap derringer for that role, the Cobray/Leinads are great because they're the cheapest .410/.45 derringers you can buy and I feel that the larger bore and amount of shot is better.
And also because there's almost no rifling in them and I question if the shot even gets spun by the rifling, so the patterns aren't bad for 5 yards away.
When I started carrying in the 70s there wasn’t much choice for pocket carry. Back then cover shirts weren’t in style and as a late teen a blazer was unthinkable, So a J Frame would not work for me. I wanted more power than a tiny 25 or 22, so a 38 derringer worked for me.
This was a German made derringer that I could consistently hit a water heater with both barrels at 25-30 yards. I figured that if if could hit a man sized target at that distance it would work even better at a bad breath distance.
I carried that piece into the mid 80s till I could get by with a PPK. But boy was it heavy as a pocket pistol. And pocket holsters were not even heard of back then.
Choices for both guns and holsters didn’t get better till the mid 90s, then even better 10 years later. Now, here in the last 8-10 years our choices have exploded with great options.
This was a German made derringer that I could consistently hit a water heater with both barrels at 25-30 yards. I figured that if if could hit a man sized target at that distance it would work even better at a bad breath distance.
I carried that piece into the mid 80s till I could get by with a PPK. But boy was it heavy as a pocket pistol. And pocket holsters were not even heard of back then.
Choices for both guns and holsters didn’t get better till the mid 90s, then even better 10 years later. Now, here in the last 8-10 years our choices have exploded with great options.
kBob
Member
So in early 1983 I walked into a friend's gun shop and asked to see a Remington 1871 he had. Knowing I tend toward service pistols and military rifles he asked why I was interested.
Now I am talking about the over under layout, single action pistols "as seen on TV" as a hide out gun a in bijillion '50's and '60's "Cowboy shows". I must have had half a dozen toy versions during those times including one mounted on a spring loaded device that went up a shirt sleeve like I think the TV Bat Masterson had at one point. I even had a plastic water pistol version of one during the great high school Junior Class water gun fight that lasted a couple of weeks that spring (Can you imagine 16 year olds ambushing one another and sniping the occasional teacher with semi realistic water pistols in the halls of public schools today?)
I explained that I wanted to compare an original.41 Rim Fire to the German .38 Special I had been carrying.
He suggested that I bring the "modern" .38 in so he could weld it shut. Said it might make an interesting shadow box display piece.
I was appalled and said so and he then offered to weld it open for free as well.... for use as a sinker while fishing for sea cats out in the bay.
There followed tales of horror about dropped derringers, snagged derringers, and "slipped" derringers during which the gunshop owner owned up to a dropped derringer discharge that blew off a boot heel and really tick off his wife, another customer when called a BS'er dropped his pants and showed the scar from his dropped derringer (seriously, he did) and a third customer insisted ZZTop had not made a record in a while because a member was shot in the gut by a dropped Derringer.
I called them all old fools. I unloaded and brought in my derringer which I had initially left in the car and we all looked it over and the gunshop owner ( an actual smith) showed me all that could go wrong. Having carried the thing a year successfully I again called them old fools for being "afraid of a mechanical object"
My buddy was driving that day and I left the shop in the passenger seat with an empty derringer. The only mechanical safety on those things was the half cock. As we headed around the belt way I retrieved my two hard cast DEWC hot loaded rounds and popped open the Derringer while on half cock, loaded it, closed the barrels and locked it and pulled the hammer back a bit to cycle the barrel selector....and slipped the hammer. Not ten minutes from calling folks old fools I had proved myself a young one.
The bullet struck the driver's car door, shattered inside and the report in a closed car was rather loud. That would have been enough to teach me my lesson….passing through my left hand striking the bones that support the little and ring fingers of the left hand was really not necessary as a teaching point. The "hamburger" and blood splatter across the dash and windshield was a true attention getter. Who knew you could see arterial bleeding that far down stream?
At the hospital they wanted to immediately amputate at least the pinky finger back to the wrist. They told me both impacted bones were "like chewed up tooth picks" and the ER doc was very anti gun.
I had them stablize the wound and sought another opinion. I went to the ER in my VA hospital almost three hours drive away from where I had folks wanting to cut and am very glad I did. New set of x rays showed not even broken bone, much less chewed up tooth picks. Also original ER wanted to do a resection (cut from entrance to exit to get access to the wound channel which was pretty much the standard for GSW to an extremity in those days) and the young doc at the VA had worked under Dr. Martin Fackler (yes the gel shooting guy) in Vietnam and was VERY confident in Dr. Fackler's technique of treating such wounds with out cutting.... think cleaning rod and patch three times a day until the wound closes... yes it hurt like you think....times 3....and took over six weeks.
I was told the fingers would not function and that amputation might still be on the table to prevent a nerve dead pinky from getting caught in stuff and amputated in an uncontrolled manner.
They were wrong as the fingers work and have feeling and are strong. The hand does dang near everything it could...and warns of approaching rain storms...
Just a couple of years after the stupidity (not an acciedent, just me being stupid) I met Dr. Fackler when he retired moved to our area and joined our gun club. I thanked him for his medical research work profusely.
I ended up doing some of the number crunching for the great Fackler verses Marshall and Sanow "debates" and played with rifles and shotguns with him a few years. For a bit he showed off a balloon that had been struck by a .45ACP and not popped, demonstrating his argument that pistol bullets did not cut every tissue they went by... that was a balloon I shot in a club competition he was at.
Any how....The Derringer? I still have it. Used it in handgun and general firearms safety courses and with the exception of two Speer plastic bullets around 1992 the gun has had only primerless and powderless dummy rounds loaded in it since "the event"
I am a lot more muzzle conscious, especially with short barreled guns, and I do not recommend traditional derringers to folks.
If you just have to have a Derringer just remember a lot of "old fools" recommend you find something else.
an embarrassed
-kBob
Now I am talking about the over under layout, single action pistols "as seen on TV" as a hide out gun a in bijillion '50's and '60's "Cowboy shows". I must have had half a dozen toy versions during those times including one mounted on a spring loaded device that went up a shirt sleeve like I think the TV Bat Masterson had at one point. I even had a plastic water pistol version of one during the great high school Junior Class water gun fight that lasted a couple of weeks that spring (Can you imagine 16 year olds ambushing one another and sniping the occasional teacher with semi realistic water pistols in the halls of public schools today?)
I explained that I wanted to compare an original.41 Rim Fire to the German .38 Special I had been carrying.
He suggested that I bring the "modern" .38 in so he could weld it shut. Said it might make an interesting shadow box display piece.
I was appalled and said so and he then offered to weld it open for free as well.... for use as a sinker while fishing for sea cats out in the bay.
There followed tales of horror about dropped derringers, snagged derringers, and "slipped" derringers during which the gunshop owner owned up to a dropped derringer discharge that blew off a boot heel and really tick off his wife, another customer when called a BS'er dropped his pants and showed the scar from his dropped derringer (seriously, he did) and a third customer insisted ZZTop had not made a record in a while because a member was shot in the gut by a dropped Derringer.
I called them all old fools. I unloaded and brought in my derringer which I had initially left in the car and we all looked it over and the gunshop owner ( an actual smith) showed me all that could go wrong. Having carried the thing a year successfully I again called them old fools for being "afraid of a mechanical object"
My buddy was driving that day and I left the shop in the passenger seat with an empty derringer. The only mechanical safety on those things was the half cock. As we headed around the belt way I retrieved my two hard cast DEWC hot loaded rounds and popped open the Derringer while on half cock, loaded it, closed the barrels and locked it and pulled the hammer back a bit to cycle the barrel selector....and slipped the hammer. Not ten minutes from calling folks old fools I had proved myself a young one.
The bullet struck the driver's car door, shattered inside and the report in a closed car was rather loud. That would have been enough to teach me my lesson….passing through my left hand striking the bones that support the little and ring fingers of the left hand was really not necessary as a teaching point. The "hamburger" and blood splatter across the dash and windshield was a true attention getter. Who knew you could see arterial bleeding that far down stream?
At the hospital they wanted to immediately amputate at least the pinky finger back to the wrist. They told me both impacted bones were "like chewed up tooth picks" and the ER doc was very anti gun.
I had them stablize the wound and sought another opinion. I went to the ER in my VA hospital almost three hours drive away from where I had folks wanting to cut and am very glad I did. New set of x rays showed not even broken bone, much less chewed up tooth picks. Also original ER wanted to do a resection (cut from entrance to exit to get access to the wound channel which was pretty much the standard for GSW to an extremity in those days) and the young doc at the VA had worked under Dr. Martin Fackler (yes the gel shooting guy) in Vietnam and was VERY confident in Dr. Fackler's technique of treating such wounds with out cutting.... think cleaning rod and patch three times a day until the wound closes... yes it hurt like you think....times 3....and took over six weeks.
I was told the fingers would not function and that amputation might still be on the table to prevent a nerve dead pinky from getting caught in stuff and amputated in an uncontrolled manner.
They were wrong as the fingers work and have feeling and are strong. The hand does dang near everything it could...and warns of approaching rain storms...
Just a couple of years after the stupidity (not an acciedent, just me being stupid) I met Dr. Fackler when he retired moved to our area and joined our gun club. I thanked him for his medical research work profusely.
I ended up doing some of the number crunching for the great Fackler verses Marshall and Sanow "debates" and played with rifles and shotguns with him a few years. For a bit he showed off a balloon that had been struck by a .45ACP and not popped, demonstrating his argument that pistol bullets did not cut every tissue they went by... that was a balloon I shot in a club competition he was at.
Any how....The Derringer? I still have it. Used it in handgun and general firearms safety courses and with the exception of two Speer plastic bullets around 1992 the gun has had only primerless and powderless dummy rounds loaded in it since "the event"
I am a lot more muzzle conscious, especially with short barreled guns, and I do not recommend traditional derringers to folks.
If you just have to have a Derringer just remember a lot of "old fools" recommend you find something else.
an embarrassed
-kBob
Wow! Sorry to hear about your experience Kbob. I carried mine for around 12 years. I reckon I should thank the Good Lord for looking out for me.
I have a small collection of those German Derringers as well as an uncommon Uberti 357. I will definitely be more careful when shooting them.
Thanks for sharing your story.
Legionnaire
Contributing Member
Novelty as far as I am concerned. They may have had a role in history, but not so much today. Small might be good, but some of the derringers are bigger than better options. I had a NAA Mini-Revolver in .22 Mag for a while; it was kinda cool, but not very practical. It was replaced by a Kel-Tec P32 ... which was subsequently replaced by a Ruger LCP. It is small enough that it can go anywhere (in a pocket holster), even when wearing shorts and a t-shirt.
bc38
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from time to time I carry a derringer. I can keep both shots on a pipe plate at 10 yards all day. the trick with the trigger is pull back and down. I know the collective conventional wisdom is the derringers are toys, useless, and only used by fools or the uninformed. well I for one am not all that worried about hoards of whatever. 3, 3, and 3....well I got 2,3,and 3 guess that will do. Each to his own.
Jakemedic
Member
Has an American Derringer in 38 special that I purchased at auction over a year ago. Took it out and ran 10 rounds through it. Brought it home, cleaned it and put it in the safe. Shot fine, at 5 yards, but for less weight, my 340 PD with light recoil .357 magnum is my go to pocket piece. Think I wanted the derringer cause my dad had one growing up. He carried his everywhere. Still a good SHTF gun, or possibly trade bait if needed.
Cocked & Locked
Member
This was posted halfway through the thread.
I cannot imagine choosing a defensive firearm that cannot be carried safely and drawn and fired very quickly using one hand, that cannot be fired with combat accuracy at a rate of at least two shots per second, and that does not have the capacity to give the defender a reasonable chance of hitting something critical inside the attacker's body-quickly.
Do not confuse lethality with defensive effectiveness.
One difference is the time it takes for an assailant to cease to constitute an immediate threat.
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