Did they really load just five rounds?

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They still make some that way and they are “drop safe” with full a cylinder.

I was referring specifically to the Colt Richards Conversion.

Colt made four different cartridge conversion revolvers before introducing the Single Action Army in 1873.

These were the Thuer Conversion, the Richards Conversion, the Richards-Mason conversion, and the Open Top.

The Richards Conversion was the only one that had the extra locking notches. Collectors call these the Twelve Stop Richards Conversions.

I have taken the liberty of posting a photo of one from R..Bruce McDowell's book A Study of Colt Conversions and Other Percussion Revolvers, the most authoritative book on the subject.

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Compare that to the cylinder of my Richards Conversion, with the standard six stops on the cylinder.

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The very early Richards Conversions were made using modified cylinders from 1860 Colt Army Cap & Ball revolvers. Some of those revolvers, not all, had 12 stop cylinders.

Colt was using up their stock of spare parts to make the cylinders for the Richards Conversions. Only some of the very early Richards Conversions had these 12 stop cylinders.

Once Colt had used up all the spare parts, they began making new cylinders for the Richards Conversion from scratch, they were no longer using up spare parts.

Charles B. Richards, one of Colt's best inventors, was issued the patent for the Richards Conversion in July 1871.

On January 31, 1871 Colt received an order from the Army to alter (convert), clean and repair 1000 1860 Percussion revolvers so they could fire cartridges.

Approximately 9,000 Richards Conversions were produced, up until 1878, well past the introduction of the mechanically superior Single Action Army in 1873.

However, only the very earliest Richards Conversions had 12 stop cylinders, and none of the three other Colt cartridge conversion revolvers had a 12 stop cylinder.

Yes, I have seen photos of modern conversion cylinders for various Cap & Ball revolvers with 12 stops, but that is not historically accurate.
 
I haven't packed a six gun around on my hip in ages. It's difficult enough just moving me in around anymore to discourage any more boonie walks. That may change as I am finally going to get in to see the doctor that can do something about my rusty right wheel bearing. My shooting is confined to the range nowdays. I kill paper and steel and only load five either with the original system or the new safe systems. That keeps the rows of rounds in the box even. If my get-a-long improves enough to go exploring again I will only load five for the same reason, be it three screw single six, new model BlackHawk, or any other brand
 
Howdy Again

Here are a few photos from a reprint of an Army manual dating from 1875 regarding revolvers and gatling guns.

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Here is the pertinent passage I referred to earlier, regarding letting the hammer down to the so called "Safety Notch". I will reiterate, this manual was published in 1875, the SAA had only been in the Army's inventory for two years, and it probably had not sunk in yet how easily the sear could break off if the revolver was dropped on the hammer spur.

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The life expectancy charts are somewhat misleading.

The charts take the expectancy from birth. Infant mortality was very high, but childhood mortality was worse.

A great many families had young children die - accidents, illness, whatever. It was not unusual to lose 30-40% of the children to death before adulthood, from a combination of infant and child mortality.


Just go take a trip to a cemetery from pre-1900 and look at the stones.

Generally, if one made it to 16 their life expectancy was roughly similar to ours nowadays.

It is hard to encapsulate the totality of anything in one number or one word. Yes child mortality was orders of magnitude higher than today. This is CG Conn's headstone and family plot.

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CG has the big, showy headstone, the rest of the family have flat markers, you can see Veteran flags by two of them. Both Conn's, and Civil War veterans. What I have not posted are the headstones of Elizabeth Conn, died 1880 five years old, and James Conn, died 1860 one year old. There is an Arthur Conn, no date. Maybe a still born? These children markers are all over older cemeteries. Childhood diseases took a lot of lives. But so did regular diseases, these people lived in the pre antibiotic world. A scratch could be, and was, fatal. We are now in the post anti biotic era, and we are seeing the increase in death rate from what were easily preventable causes.

Workers toiled in dangerous conditions, death happened and was shrugged off. I saw a program about Harland and Wolff, builders of the Titanic. At the time, one worker died from accidents for every ten thousand tons of ship. In that period a 10,000 ton ship was a big ship, battleships were around 20 to 25 thousand tons. For workers that died, Harland and Wolff would pay for the funeral and give the family about a month's pay. That was generous for the times. And that was that, families were lucky to get any money at all.

Attitudes followed the "just world" theory. That is, God protected the good, so good things happened to good people, but bad things happened to bad peoples. Accidents were the just reward of ungodliness. These attitudes fostered all sorts of dangerous working, living, societal conditions. People were cheap, things were expensive. Hatcher, in his book, Hatcher's Notebook, records the decision of the Army to keep low number M1903's in service. There were one million low number 03's, tests had shown that as a class, 33% of these rifles would explode under over stress conditions, and many did with just standard service ammunition. The issuing report committee recommended scrapping all one million rifles, as there was no way to detect a bad rifle, nor a way to make all rifles safe. The Army decided that cost too much and kept the rifles in service. The reasoning that Hatcher records, was that the Army decided to keep low number rifles in service, until they wore out or blew up in the face of a Soldier, Sailor, Marine! Hatcher casts this as a Solomonic decision, and Hatcher ran the Army Ordnance Bureau during WW2, and wrote his Notebook post WW2. I am sure he made all sorts of wartime decisions which prioritized the cost of a $40.00 rifle over the health and well being of Army personnel.

Organizations still do what ever they can to not to take care of their people if it costs too much:

The Marines decided it was cheaper to let Marines drink polluted water at Camp Lejune for 30 years then provide clean water. And the Navy Base at Pearl Harbor decided it was cheaper to act similarly. The state of Hawaii had to shut the Navy down, for concerns that the aircraft fuel would spread to the entire Oahu water system. I think interesting to contemplate what would have happened if the Navy had a fire at Oahu. Twenty thousand gallons of fuel had leaked into the fire suppression system, and if the suppression system had activated because of a fire, there might not be a Oahu today! The Halifax explosion of WW1 would be a firecracker in comparison.

This is an interesting discussion about the probability of collecting Social Security, given the person reaches 21 years. Somewhere there is similar data for pre 1900.

So yes, if you made it past childhood in 1940, you could expect 12 years of good life, in 1990, 15 years. It is an increase, I heard COVID has dropped the life expectancy number, but I don't know what levels.
 
Did guns come with owners manuals back then?

Howdy Once Again

Yes, some did. Smith and Wesson printed Directions for Use right inside the lid of the box. Not a whole lot of safety precautions, just how to use the revolver. I have brightened up these photos a bit, hopefully you can read the directions.

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Let me ask you this: Do you know anyone who carries an M1911 on half-cock?

Probably not -- because the half-cock on the M1911 is just as dangerous as the half-cock on the Colt Single Action. Everyone I know who carries an M1911 carries it cocked-and-locked.

Nope, and I learned in the Navy that this was a “No-Go”.
 
Let me ask you this: Do you know anyone who carries an M1911 on half-cock?

Probably not -- because the half-cock on the M1911 is just as dangerous as the half-cock on the Colt Single Action. Everyone I know who carries an M1911 carries it cocked-and-locked.

The John Browning pistol, the M1910, that passed the field testing and reliability testing had a half cock . This is what John Browning says in his patent:


Patent 984,519 J. M. Browning, Firearm,

application filed Feb 17 1910. Patented Feb 14 1911.


Page 7



Heretofore in the pistols of this class, when the hammer was cocked ready for firing, and it became necessary to lower the hammer to the safety position without allowing it to touch the firing pin, it required both hands of the user to accomplish this act, because the trigger had to be pulled with the first finger of the right-hand to release the hammer and the grip-lever had simultaneously to be pressed into the grip to release the trigger for operation, to the keeping of the thumb of the right hand in a horizontal position on the side of the grip. Therefore it was impracticable to also extend the thumb of the right hand, while this hand pressed in the grip-lever and pulled the trigger, upward so as to rest upon the thumb-piece of the hammer and, thus controlling the hammer, to gently lower the same and restrain it from falling and from striking the firing pin, because any attempt to do this would result in loosening the necessary hold upon the grip-lever. Consequently the lowering the hammer had to be performed by the other hand, this is a serious drawback in a military arm, as a soldier and especially a mounted soldier does not in action have both hands free for such use. To overcome this difficulty, I have provided the grip-lever w with projecting nose w2 in rear of its pivot, which stands closely in rear of and below the hammer when cocked, and the hammer is so fitted that it may be drawn rearward somewhat father than to its cocked position. When the hammer is drawn fully back it strikes the nose w2 and, by pressing the same downward, it caused the grip-lever to turn on its pivot forcing the lower portion into the grip, thereby releasing the trigger. By this arrangement the thumb of the hand grasping the grip needs not to be kept at the side of the grip need not to be kept at the side of the grip for pressing in the grip-lever, but the thumb may be applied to the hammer and through the same operate the grip lever to release the trigger, then the trigger may be operated with the first finger of the same hand to release the hammer and finally the thumb, still applied to the hammer, may allow the same to slowly descend to the safety position, without requiring the aid of the other hand. The rearward projecting nose w2 of the grip-lever w below the hammer q and in rear of the pivot pin w1, serves to perform another important function in addition to that of providing the point of contact between the grip lever and the hammer, by means of which the grip lever may be operated to release the trigger by drawing the hammer fully rearward, as here in before described.


From what I read, the Army wanted a grip safety so the pistol would not discharge if dropped, from a horse. This was before they insisted on the "make safe with one hand" requirement, that lead to the thumb safety. The pistol that passed all the tests, the 1910 Colt, did not have a thumb safety, it had the grip safety.

Links and pictures from Sam Laker’s ColtAutos.com

http://www.coltautos.com/default.asp

This is an exceedingly rare pistol, Sam has pictures of serial number 2, and it is not retrofitted for the thumb safety, and this one, serial number 5, is in the original 1910 troop trails configuration.

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There is a prior history. This is the M1903 patent picture

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There is no thumb safety, this pistol was made safe by lowering the hammer to the half cock. Also, John Browning designed the 1903 trigger mechanism so when the hammer was at half cock, the slide was fixed in place. That way, you would not jack out a round while holstering the thing. This feature is retained in the series 70 M1911. You can test it, in a series 70, by lowering the hammer to half cock, and trying to rack the slide. You can over ride it, which I assume was intentional, but the resistance is there, and it is not accidental. John Browning put it there. No one ever does this, so guys at the range are amazed when this feature is shown to them.

The Army must have thought that lowering the hammer to half cock was too difficult, with one hand, and a bucking horsey, they wanted something simpler and more positive.

John Browning did design a sear blocking thumb safety, or his pistol would never have been accepted by the Calvary, who wanted to keep their revolvers. And he designed an improved half cock, that would prevent the hammer from falling if the sear broke. It is possible to break the sear on these pistols, by hitting the hammer hard enough. However, not all of his 1913 patent was accepted for use by the Army, and they did not use the new and improved half cock safety.

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This feature was never incorporated into the issue 1911. I don't think the Army trusted making the pistol safe by lowering the hammer to half cock. Both the Army, and John Browning understood the thumb safety was there, so the pistol could be quickly, and temporarily made safe, until such time as the hammer could be lowered, all the way down.

Half cock safeties have been used on muskets, lever actions, shot guns for a very long time. There are risks in using a half cock safety, one of which the user cannot see if the sear is in the half cock notch. The sear might be balancing on the tip of the half cock, and a slight trigger pull would result in the hammer falling. And many accidental discharges resulted from the hammer slipping out from under the thumb of the user. And of course, unless the user has X Ray vision, the user cannot see if the half cock nose is broken or worn and neither the sear. Sears do break, and the 1911 goes full auto when it does.

The earliest accidental discharge I have found is in the 1917 National Match section of the Arms and Man magazine. In his tent, a civilian was lowering the hammer of his 1911 and the hammer slipped, the pistol discharged, and 200 yards away a Major had to be taken to hospital. Enough accidental discharges happened when lowering the hammer on a live round, that the Army decided that the carry condition was round in the chamber, safety on, pistol in the holster. However, post WW2 the carry condition changed. Vietnam veterans I have talked to said the carry condition was nothing in the chamber, hammer down, magazine in the gun. I wondered about this, and then I got to talk to a Kimber employee at a National Match. He claimed that 1200 Jeep transmissions had developed 45 caliber holes in their transoms, from 1940 to 1970. What happened was that officer's took their web belt and holster off, placed it on the floor, or between the seats, and then during Mr Toad's wild ride, (which happens more frequently than the military want's to admit) the holster got flung against the transmission transom hump, and firing pin inertia caused a discharge. Not having a round in the chamber would stop that from happening.

Vietnam veterans said what happened out in Indian country was between the Grunt and his Unit Commander. But back in cantonment, regulations applied. Incidentally, bases learned to take away all firearms, grenades, mortar shells, smoke grenades, etc from enlisted men when they came out of the field. Grunts did crazy stupid stuff with munitions and guns when they were drunk or high.

The Navy never allowed round in the chamber at all from the earliest Blue Jacket Manual I have found, which is from 1917. The only time the user put a round in the chamber was during a combat situation. You can imagine bullets ricocheting inside a cramped steel ship might cause a big problem.
 
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Observation of old photographs which weren’t posed in a studio largely shows “they” didn’t pack revolvers very commonly at all.

Somewhere I have a print of a photo taken in a Texas saloon around 1910. About 20 men are bellied up to the bar, shoulder to shoulder, chaps, big hats and all. No sixguns though. Of course, some ornery sheriff could have disarmed them as they came into town... but no holsters either.
 
I just don't see it as something that can be proven either way.

But Spok said: "Logic dictates that single action revolvers would be loaded with five rounds, most of the time, by most people". ! Of course, some would load six, and suffer the consequences. Especially around horses, the mode of transportation those days. I sure can't imagine the hammer down on a loaded chamber, or the hammer in the "safety" notch, when handling horses. A hoss is a gentle creature, I know them well, but he's a scaredy-cat, and unpredictable, very powerful and prone to panic. And some are ornery. Sometimes they kick. A horse kicking your hammer would certainly fire it.

The proof may be in the fact that it wasn't common, or epidemic that many cowboys and frontiersmen were having their guns go off in the holsters on a regular basis, and blowing holes through their legs and feet. Bone fragments. If it was common practice to load all six, I think that would be the case. ?
 
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Somewhere I have a print of a photo taken in a Texas saloon around 1910. About 20 men are bellied up to the bar, shoulder to shoulder, chaps, big hats and all. No sixguns though. Of course, some ornery sheriff could have disarmed them as they came into town... but no holsters either.

Could have been a lot of reasons for that. Branding, roping, moving the cattle to town for shipment, etc., might be more practical not to wear one's six-gun. When working hard close to the ranch I don't think the sixguns were worn. Some might prefer a carbine in a saddle scabbard to wearing a pistol when working, when riding further out, and there weren't hostile Indians of banditos around. Going to the saloon on a payday to whoop it up, maybe dance with the girls, I bet most cowboys would leave the pistol rig in the bunkhouse.

I think, but don't know, just guessing, that when a town had a no-gun rule, it would be customary to leave one's holster with the gun in it, when turning it over to the Sheriff, rather than tossing the pistols in a pile to get banged up. ?
 
But Spok said: "Logic dictates that single action revolvers would be loaded with five rounds, most of the time, by most people". ! Of course, some would load six, and suffer the consequences. Especially around horses, the mode of transportation those days. I sure can't imagine the hammer down on a loaded chamber, or the hammer in the "safety" notch, when handling horses. A hoss is a gentle creature, I know them well, but he's a scaredy-cat, and unpredictable, very powerful and prone to panic. And some are ornery. Sometimes they kick. A horse kicking your hammer would certainly fire it.

The proof may be in the fact that it wasn't common, or epidemic that many cowboys and frontiersmen were having their guns go off in the holsters on a regular basis, and blowing holes through their legs and feet. Bone fragments. If it was common practice to load all six, I think that would be the case. ?

The one thing we can say about people - they haven't changed - Most would carry 5 out of caution and common sense but there are always some who take chances or etc.
Once a friend showed me his Colt single action army 45 that he kept between the seats of his car. Sure enough
the hammer was on one round. I told him it was dangerous. He shrugged. But he was known not to be very intelligent already..
 
The one thing we can say about people - they haven't changed - Most would carry 5 out of caution and common sense but there are always some who take chances or etc.
Once a friend showed me his Colt single action army 45 that he kept between the seats of his car. Sure enough
the hammer was on one round. I told him it was dangerous. He shrugged. But he was known not to be very intelligent already..

There are very few people who care about how a mechanism works. That includes automobiles, the generation of wrench turners is pretty much gone. Sometimes a person is loaned a firearm they don't know anything about, no one explains how the thing works, and they get injured. At the Doctor's Office I met a nice young man who was there with his wife and small sons. He had been loaned a Marlin 336 in 30-30, maybe the day of the hunt. He was familiar with H&R Topper shotguns, which have a transfer bar, and are safe to carry hammer down. He assumed the Marlin was safe hammer down. So as he goes through the inky darkness, tying colored plastic tape around trees so he could find his way back, he said his backpack swung around and hit the hammer of the Marlin that was slung around his shoulder. The rifle discharged right next to his ear, he said he lost the hearing in that ear. If the muzzle had been a little more off axis, his kids would have been fatherless. This Marlin was a pre safety Marlin, and I do think the safety Marlins are a safer mechanism as you don't have to rely on a half cock safety.

Claiming accidents did not happen because there is no record assumes that anyone was making records. Creating databases takes time and money, and who exactly is paying for the database of atomic wedgie incidents?

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Guess they don't happen.
 
There was a Gunsmith, in Houston, whose brother had a 3 screw Blackhawk. 357.
He always carried it loaded with 6. His brother spoke of loading 5 rounds many times.
His answer was, "nothing in the books about it."

Getting loaded for a deer hunt, he is wearing his gun belt and Blackhawk. As he sets a box in the truck, he turns, catches the Blackhawk and it drops to the cement. Hits on the hammer and fires.

His brother, the Gunsmith, is walking up. The bullet struck just above his Adam's apple and exited the back of his head.


THAT is why I carry on an empty chamber.
 
I have no idea. That was a bit before my time and i never knew anyone from that time.

There has been so many differing things written about Wyatt Earp that it would be very difficult to determine what is true and is made up. Maybe he actually made that statement or maybe Mr. Lake just threw it in.

I find the entire paragraph troubling, and it's due to this statement,

"To ensure against accidental discharge of the gun while in the holster, due to hair-trigger adjustment, the hammer rested upon an empty chamber."

When the hammer is at rest, the trigger has nothing to do with anything, least of all the safety or lack thereof, of a revolver with the hammer resting forward on live round.
 
I had my SAA replica at the range a couple of days ago and cleaned it yesterday.

Happened to think of this thread while I was cleaning it, and examined it with the "5 or 6?" question in my mind.

It would be incredibly stupid of me to carry this thing with six rounds in it. If it were in a holster on my hip and I had to move around and do physical work, sooner or later the hammer would get hit by something.

Even in 2022 I wouldn't carry this thing around in my car and shopping and walking the dog with six rounds in it. It's an accident waiting to happen.

The firing pin on the end of the hammer is right above the primer of a live cartridge. A sharp rap to the hammer will set off the round.

I doubt that many carried six back in the day, either. It's obviously a bad idea and almost any serious injury was possibly fatal back then.
 
The firing pin on the end of the hammer is right above the primer of a live cartridge. A sharp rap to the hammer will set off the round./QUOTE]
At the range sometime you could test it with a cartridge under the hammer. Just rap the spur moderately to heavily with a piece of wood. I either read of someone doing that demonstration or it was on You Tube.
 
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