Did they really load just five rounds?

[Driftwood Johnson]

There is an old legend that men carried rolled up bills in the empty chamber -- for burial money.

Yeah, I've heard that myth too. The cylinder on the left is a 32 Rimfire cylinder from a Smith and Wesson Number 2 Old Army Tip Up revolver. The cylinder on the right is from a 45 Colt 2nd Generation Colt Single Action Army.






The $20 bill does not fit into the the 32 caliber S&W cylinder.






It fits fine into the Colt cylinder. One of these days I keep meaning to shoot a CAS match with my Black Powder 45 Colt loads and see if the $20 bill survives.

 

[gobsauce]

Yeah, I've heard that myth too. The cylinder on the left is a 32 Rimfire cylinder from a Smith and Wesson Number 2 Old Army Tip Up revolver. The cylinder on the right is from a 45 Colt 2nd Generation Colt Single Action Army.

View attachment 1096756




The $20 bill does not fit into the the 32 caliber S&W cylinder.

View attachment 1096757




It fits fine into the Colt cylinder. One of these days I keep meaning to shoot a CAS match with my Black Powder 45 Colt loads and see if the $20 bill survives.

View attachment 1096758

The only issue, however, is that back then (1880's-1900's) they used Horse Blanket notes. Bigger than our current ones.

 

[wcwhitey]

Yeah, I've heard that myth too. The cylinder on the left is a 32 Rimfire cylinder from a Smith and Wesson Number 2 Old Army Tip Up revolver. The cylinder on the right is from a 45 Colt 2nd Generation Colt Single Action Army.

View attachment 1096756




The $20 bill does not fit into the the 32 caliber S&W cylinder.

View attachment 1096757




It fits fine into the Colt cylinder. One of these days I keep meaning to shoot a CAS match with my Black Powder 45 Colt loads and see if the $20 bill survives.

View attachment 1096758

Use a $1 Bill unless you got money to burn

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

The only issue, however, is that back then (1880's-1900's) they used Horse Blanket notes. Bigger than our current ones.

Yeah, I know that.

But look how much room there is in the 45 Colt chamber.

A larger bill would fit in there easily.

Still, after 50 or so Black Powder 45 Colt rounds I dunno if it would still be there, or be burnt to a cinder.

 

[.308 Norma]

Nope, I don't know exactly when.

I am a tad younger than you, 72, and when I used to go Trap shooting with my Dad about 50 years ago, the 20 gauge shells could be any color. I remember him telling me to always be careful because a 20 gauge shell slipped into the chamber of a 12 gauge shotgun would hang up by its rim in the chamber. That would make a dandy barrel obstruction.

When I got into shooting sports again about 20 years ago, all 20 gauge shells were yellow.

Google says Federal introduced yellow 20 gauge shells in 1960, and most other manufacturers followed suit soon after.

Thanks!

I answered my own question about whether or not I could find some of my wife's 20 gauge shells that weren't yellow around the house. I actually found the red one and the green one (on the index card) in my wife's old bird hunting vest. They are both Remington brand.
I think Google is wrong about other manufacturers following Federal "soon after" Federal introduced yellow 20 gauge shells in 1960 though. Either that, or my definition of "soon after" is different than Google's definition of "soon after."
My mom and dad were still running their country store/gas station when I got out of the Navy in 1972, and they were still selling 20 gauge shells from Remington that weren't yellow. Besides that, the first "real" gun I ever bought my wife was the Savage/Stevens 311 double I bought in 1973. That's the shotgun those 2, Remington 20 gauge shells in the picture were bought for later on (probably still in the '70s though).
It was funny a little while ago when I showed my wife the old red and green shotgun shells she still has in her vest. I told her, "This is going to make you feel really old." Then I told her the rest of the story about how 20 gauge shells are all yellow nowadays, and I showed her those other (and much newer) 20 gauge shells in the picture.
All she said though was, "Wow! That's really cool!" She didn't say a darned thing about it making her feel old.

 

[tactikel]

I remember a very old Elmer Keith article where he related a good friend of his was saddling his horse, the stirrup slipped off, hit the hammer of his Colt over a live round and shot himself in the leg. He died of blood loss.

 

[freedom arms .45]

uummm....maybe off topic, but-

responding to an offhand comment about black widows; my mother was in a coma 4 hours after a bite, and would have died within a few more if anti-venom hadn't been flown in from a different city. they had told my father even if the anti-venom arrived in time, it would be touch and go.

for some people, it is a death sentence.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

Black widows are bad enough, we have them all over out here.

But what really concerns me are the Fiddleback spiders. Sneaky little things. Terribly venomous.

Makes the scorpions and Desert Centipedes look tame by comparison.

 

[aaaaa]

Black widows are bad enough, we have them all over out here.

But what really concerns me are the Fiddleback spiders. Sneaky little things. Terribly venomous.

Makes the scorpions and Desert Centipedes look tame by comparison.

Fiddleback a.k.a. Brown Recluse (I had to look up fiddleback, but was aware of the recluse).

 

[Pat Riot]

One of my Pards at a Cowboy Action Shooting Match stuck a rolled up $20 in his Colt SAA when using .45 Colt BP cartridges. At the end of the match, 10 stages, 50 rounds through that gun, the bill to the rear of the chamber looked fine. The rest was burnt up. He had 2 strips of about 1/2-3/4 inch of the top and bottom of a $20. He commented that he should have use a $1 bill.




Gents,
I have given up trying to find some document from the late 1800’s that gives instructions on only loading 5 in a SAA revolver. There may be docs out there somewhere that say this but I cannot find them online.

 

[Rexster]

I keep a Black widow and a Fiddleback in the otherwise-empty chamber.

 

[Paul7]

I watched "True Grit" last night, John Wayne says yes, five only.

 

[armoredman]

My Pietta 1851 and my Uberti 1858 have safety notches between the chambers. However, I don't depend on them for gunfighting, so if I was ever to carry them afield, I would load five. I would also carry both of them, because reloads after 5 would be rather time consuming! I load all six at the range, because I am going to fire all six right there and then, and, after shooting, they come home unloaded for cleaning.
When I get a good cartridge single action revolver again, I will probably do the exact same, carry five for safety.

 

[Hal]

By the way, only loading five makes keeping the ammo in the box easy to keep track of.

I always only load 5 in a Colt with the hammer down on an empty chamber, whether messing around at the range or competing in CAS. And yes, the Ruger guys have to only load 5 too, so they do not have a competitive advantage.

Since my ammo boxes have 10 rows of five, it helps me stay organized.

P.S. Don't tell anybody, but I usually only load 5 in a modern S&W revolver, which is completely safe to load up with 6 rounds, for the same reason.

To keep the ammo in the box organized.

Before anybody slams me, I do not carry, so it does not matter that I am only loading 5 into a modern six shot revolver at the range.

I do the same thing.
I also only load 5 in my carry gun.
That's all it holds! (S&W M69)

 

[tws3b2]

I carry 5 in my S&W 642-1. Just because thats all it will hold. I can't see what difference it would make. The trigger has to be pulled.
As for the old yesterday's. The realities of the yesterday's have been lost in myths, Movies and media nonsense.

 

[.308 Norma]

I carry 5 in my S&W 642-1. Just because thats all it will hold. I can't see what difference it would make. The trigger has to be pulled.
As for the old yesterday's. The realities of the yesterday's have been lost in myths, Movies and media nonsense.

Ha,ha,ha,ha! Comparing a modern-day S&W 642-1 to the single action revolvers of the 1800s, and then claiming, "The realities of the yesterday's have been lost in myths, movies and media nonsense." Now that's funny!
Thanks for the laugh!

 

[sleepysquirrel2]

Instead of speculating about what is myth and lore, why not listen to what the US Army recommended back in 1875?

See this thread for more discussion of primary sources
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...safety-notch-and-the-cowboy-load-myth.891577/

In summary, we have documented historical evidence that:

1. The US army recommended carrying 6 cartridges, and on the safety notch (per the 1875 Springfield Armory manual)
2. The professional target shooting crowd preferred and recommended carrying 6 cartridges, and on the safety notch (per Gould's 1888 book)
3. At least some professionals, such as law enforcement officers, carried 6 cartridges (per Wyatt Earp's recorded ND reported by the Wichita Beacon in 1876).

On the other hand, there are NO documented contemporaneous accounts of "load 1, skip 1; carry 5 on an empty chamber" from the 1870's and 1880's.

And no, anecdotal stories like , "my grandpa whose uncle was best friends with the sheriff's daughter in law's cousin in some town in the 1880's told me they carried it like John Wayne did" is not documented evidence.

 

[Dave T]

sleepysquirrel2,

You seemed to have missed my earlier post in which I reported on the found SAA loaded with only 5 rounds, two of which were fired. It dated to the 1880s and was buried up to the front sight in the desert of what had been the Arizona Territory. Or is that not "documented" enough for you?

Dave

 

[Kleanbore]

On the other hand, there are NO documented contemporaneous accounts of "load 1, skip 1; carry 5 on an empty chamber" from the 1870's and 1880's.

When did Wyatt Earp recommend it?

Do you really think it possible to prove a negative?

 

[nofendertom]

Sorry Dave T but not enough documentation for me. That SAA could have been loaded with FIVE because that might have been all the ammo the owner had,or
because he/she was interrupted while loading and had to get off two quick shots. One would have to know the surrounding situation before one could surmise the
loading of FIVE as being done deliberately.
Example---If you find 3 large boulders at the bottom of a cliff and 3 large boulders at the top of the cliff, do you say "How did they get them boulders up there?" or
"Who pushed those boulders off the cliff?" When there is more than one answer, they all must be considered.

 

[sleepysquirrel2]

sleepysquirrel2,
You seemed to have missed my earlier post in which I reported on the found SAA loaded with only 5 rounds, two of which were fired. It dated to the 1880s and was buried up to the front sight in the desert of what had been the Arizona Territory. Or is that not "documented" enough for you?
Dave

Just because a gun was made in 1884, doesn't mean it was lost in the desert in 1884.
You own and shoot guns made before 2022, do you?

When did Wyatt Earp recommend it?

He didn't recommend it, but he was definitely carrying with a round under the hammer in a non-gunfight situation back in 1876.
Why would an expert lawman do such a thing if he was supposed to be a professional?

Do you really think it possible to prove a negative?

Well of course not, but the preponderance of evidence lacks any indication that "cowboy carry" was either recommended or practiced back in the 1870's and 1880's. Thus far we have no primary source documentation of this practice during the Old West period -- and remember, the old west is defined as 1865 (post civil war) to 1890 (closing of the frontier by the US census bureau). The earliest recorded documentation of this practice of "cowboy carry" emerges in the 1900's.

 

[Kleanbore]

He didn't recommend it,

Au Contraire

but he was definitely carrying with a round under the hammer in a non-gunfight situation back in 1876.

Yep.

Why would an expert lawman do such a thing if he was supposed to be a professional?

He didn't know any better yet.

 

[sleepysquirrel2]

He didn't know any better yet.

It's almost as if he loaded it -- and here comes the shocker -- according to Colt's original instructions: with 6 chambers full and carried on "the safety notch"

 

[citizenconn]

Colt it be possible that the risk of failure is exaggerated or based off old wives tales?

I just called my old (ex) wife to ask her if she knew of this particular tale, but she just called me a colorful pet name and hung up on me. Sorry I can't help.

 

[aaaaa]

Well, maybe this is a bit of a side step, but if you have an older Ruger SA that requires an empty chamber under the hammer, Ruger will fix it for you for free (so long as you don't mind modifying an older gun):

{quote]Ruger’s commitment to safety is perhaps best exemplified by our long-running, free factory safety retrofit for “old model” single-action revolvers. The “old model” free safety retrofit is a program in which we install a transfer bar and related components into these older revolvers, thereby providing an additional measure of safety against accidental discharge in the event the user fails to take the basic safety precaution of leaving an empty chamber under the hammer. First announced in 1981, the safety retrofit program is now in its 41st year, and we continue to actively advertise it and convert “old model” single-action revolvers, free of charge.[/quote]
https://oversight.house.gov/sites/Democrats.oversight.house.gov/files/Killoy Testimony.pdf