Did they really load just five rounds?

[KarateHottie93]

This discussion has been going on since long before anyone currently talking about firearms on the internet was even born. I just can't bring myself to believe that it was standard to give up a round. It's like carrying an autoloader without the +1. I see the obvious reasons why it would have been done in the western movie era but I just can't accept it.

The 1873 Colt obviously had the first "safety" notch. I'm not sure how reliable...or unreliable it was. It was definitely there for some reason though.

The 1858 Remington I believe had the cylinder notches for the firing pin to sit in? Again, I think. Maybe it's only a thing with certain reproductions I've looked at. These details are hard to get info on.

The 1875 Remington, I have no idea...if anything.

The 1836-1872 open top Colts, I'm even more confused about.

I've heard people speculate that they possibly carried uncapped, which is a bigger disadvantage than carrying five. I've heard people speculate that they carried just one under the hammer uncapped, which usually results in people learning them about the dangers of chain fires.

I'm just trying to figure out how these things were carried. Did they REALLY load JUST five rounds? On an 1873, was it really more common to load five than to use the first notch?

On an old open top, was there any kind of safety mechanisms to prevent the hammer from resting directly on a cap (or cartridge if we're talking the actual "open top" conversation)? Could you not just carry it on half cock or something? I've never handled any open top style Colts before so you'll have to excuse me if that is possibly the dumbest question ever asked.

 

[Varminterror]

Observation of old photographs which weren’t posed in a studio largely shows “they” didn’t pack revolvers very commonly at all.

 

[RKRCPA]

The following is an excerpt from an interview with Wyatt Earp by Stuart Lake.

On the second point, I have often been asked why five shots without reloading were all a top-notch gunfighter fired, when his guns were chambered for six cartridges. The answer is, merely, safety. To ensure against accidental discharge of the gun while in the holster, due to hair-trigger adjustment, the hammer rested upon an empty chamber. As widely as this was known and practiced, the number of cartridges a man carried in his six-gun may be taken as an indication of a man’s rank with the gunfighters of the old school. Practiced gun-wielders had too much respect for their weapons to take unnecessary chances with them; it was only with tyros and would-bes that you heard of accidental discharges or didn’t-know-it-was-loaded injuries in the country where carrying a Colt was a man’s prerogative.”

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I have heard and read that "Hammer down on empty chamber' was based on the possibility that, if the hammer was on half cock over a loaded chamber in a cap'n'ball or cartridge revolver and the gun fell out of the holster and landed on the hammer, the sear tip of the trigger could shear off and the hammer strike the cap or the hammer firing pin strike the primer.

Riding a horse can be very bouncy.. Looking at my cap'n'ball 1851 and 1858, I would not bet my leg on the hammer staying down between loaded chambers even using the notches on the 1858 cylinder.

 

[doubleh]

I have no idea. That was a bit before my time and i never knew anyone from that time.

There has been so many differing things written about Wyatt Earp that it would be very difficult to determine what is true and is made up. Maybe he actually made that statement or maybe Mr. Lake just threw it in.

 

[Frulk]

This is pretty simple. The gun hasn’t changed since it was first introduced.

What the majority of us would do now is more than likely what was done back then.

I’d keep the hammer on an empty chamber.

 

[shafter]

Gun safety was much different back then. I bet that alot of people loaded up all the way and took their chances.

 

[UncleEd]

The Colt "P" model 1873 has a
safety notch in the hammer for
carrying six. So advertised
back in the day.

But the wise learned that was
very dangerous as that safety
was prone to breaking easily.

The OP's phrase "giving up a
round" represents modern day
obsession with firepower.

 

[KarateHottie93]

The Colt "P" model 1873 has a
safety notch in the hammer for
carrying six. So advertised
back in the day.

But the wise learned that was
very dangerous as that safety
was prone to breaking easily.

The OP's phrase "giving up a
round" represents modern day
obsession with firepower.

If I cared that much about giving up a round, I wouldn't carry and spend every last dime on revolvers.

With that said, it's hard for me to believe it was common practice. I guess in a world where you're used to one and two shot firearms, five was plenty. It just doesn't make much sense to me. Why make the gun hold 6 without a way to reliably carry 6? How tested has this safety notch been? Colt it be possible that the risk of failure is exaggerated or based off old wives tales?

These are the same people who got the pre internet modern world thinking black widow bites were a death sentence.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

I carry with 6 rounds. But then im not on a horse or running and jumping either.

 

[Seedy Character]

The empty chamber is a safety measure, for daily carry.

IF walking into a known probable conflict, that 6th round would be loaded.

This from an old lawman, that carried Colts.

 

[Dave T]

The Summer 2021 - Issue 114 of The BLACK POWDER CARTIDGE News has an article written by William P Mapoles titled "Death in the Desert", about an 1873 Colt SAA. The 7-1/2" barrel was spotted sticking up out of the sand, 17 miles from Tombstone, 16 miles from Fort Huachuca, and 9 miles north of the Mexican border. The serial number dates it to being shipped in1884. The gun was found with an empty chamber, two fired 45 Colt cartridge cases, and three un-fired rounds. Position of the cylinder and given the Colt's clock-wise rotation, it is apparent the revolver was carried with the hammer down on an empty chamber. For reasons we will never know the owner fired two rounds, and by the position of the hammer was cocking it for another shot when he dropped his Colt in the desert.

Was he killed and by who? Don't know. Why didn't who ever killed him take the revolver with them? Don't know. Why were no skeletal remains found near the gun? Don't know. But, for the sake of the discussion in this thread we can say with great confidence the owner of this SAA 45 Colt carried it with the hammer down on an empty chamber. And this in a very dangerous part of the Arizona Territory, circa mid-1880s.

Dave

 

[.455_Hunter]

It's my understanding that in the Cavalry service during the Indian Wars, that sixth round from the initial load-out was frequently kept in a shirt pocket as an insurance policy against running out of ammo and being captured. You really didn't want that to happen...

 

[UncleEd]

This thread is just becoming a lengthy rehash of The
High Road thread not so long ago titled: The single
action safety notch and the "Cowboy Load" myth.

 

[DR505]

This thread is just becoming a lengthy rehash of The
High Road thread not so long ago titled: The single
action safety notch and the "Cowboy Load" myth.

And in six months someone will start it yet again.

 

[Zygodactyl]

Up to the 1980's the Florida Dept of Corrections would only allow 5 shots in the S&W Revolvers. No matter how much I argued and provided documentation on the safety features of a S&W, they wouldn't change their position. They never did change until they adopted a 9mm pistol in place of the revolvers.

The SASS matches only allow 5 rounds and hammer down on an empty chamber. I use Rugers that have a transfer bar, but rules are rules.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

I have no idea. That was a bit before my time and i never knew anyone from that time.

There has been so many differing things written about Wyatt Earp that it would be very difficult to determine what is true and is made up. Maybe he actually made that statement or maybe Mr. Lake just threw it in.

Surely you aren't suggesting that an author of a book or article would simply make things up to spice up the writing?

Say it ain't so!

That would never happen today.
Journalistic integrity and all that, don'tcha know.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The most common accident occurred while saddling a horse. You have the saddle on the horse, and you throw the left stirrup up on the seat as you tighten the girth. It the horse shifts a bit, the stirrup can slide off and hit you in the hip -- had it happen to me many a time. No big deal -- unless you're carrying a single action with a live round under the hammer and the stirrup hits the hammer spur.

Depending on how you're standing the result can be a through-and-through wound in the lower leg. In those days, that would usually be fatal through loss of blood and infection.

 

[eddiememphis]

I believe Elmer Keith writes about it in one of his books. I don't recall which one, you just need to read them all.

Then there is the story of the Texas Rangers who only carried 5 rounds in a six-gun. When asked why, one replies, "If I can't stop him with five, one more won't make a difference."

 

[Mn Fats]

Observation of old photographs which weren’t posed in a studio largely shows “they” didn’t pack revolvers very commonly at all.

And when "they" did, the pistol was rarely ever carried in a nice leather holster, like you see in the old Western movies. Much of the time it was just a Calvary holster, sometimes with the flap cut off.

 

[Mn Fats]

This thread is just becoming a lengthy rehash of The
High Road thread not so long ago titled: The single
action safety notch and the "Cowboy Load" myth.

What is with your framing?

 

[Mn Fats]

The empty chamber is a safety measure, for daily carry.

IF walking into a known probable conflict, that 6th round would be loaded.

This from an old lawman, that carried Colts.

It never was intended for that, no.

 

[Mn Fats]

Then there is the story of the Texas Rangers who only carried 5 rounds in a six-gun. When asked why, one replies, "If I can't stop him with five, one more won't make a difference."

"One replies". Who? What an idiot.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

How tested has this safety notch been? Colt it be possible that the risk of failure is exaggerated or based off old wives tales?

Take one apart, and look at the end of the sear, and the notch it rests in. I think you will would agree that dropping the gun on the hammer would result in both a busted gun, and a "unwanted" discharge. The sear is a very delicate part...no exaggeration. If only five shots is a problem, a non-functional six-shooter is a worse problem. Five rounds was the common practice. If you look at all the "accidents" with single action pistol in modern times, I'm sure the old timers learned the hard way pretty fast, if they chose to carry six rounds.

I know of a guy who loaded his old model Blackhawk with six rounds, fell down a steep slope and shot himself in the foot. My friend who was there said that all the bone fragments and blood was pretty horrible. Not like in the movies where there's just a bloody hole. I mean the dude's foot was destroyed.

Bottom line, back in that day people just were not obsessed with one extra round, and if you were in an extended fight, you can load it up with six. If you had time to reload. That one extra shot would not save the day.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Why didn't who ever killed him take the revolver with them? Don't know. Why were no skeletal remains found near the gun? Don't know.

He done dropped it off his running horse! His bones are miles away. When Col.Steptoe had his fight with the local tribes near where Rosalia Washington is today, four or five Colt Dragoons were found or plowed up in a farmer's field. Dropped from horse back, but not practical to turn around and pick them up with angry Indians hot on the trail.