Differences in Recoil but Same Bullet Weight

[ATLDave]

Having loaded to similar power factors (momentum) rounds with different powders, I can tell you that I definitely notice the difference between, say, HS6 or Silhouette on one hand versus, say, VVN320 on the other. As a USPSA shooter, anything that reduces the degree of bounce in the sights is a big deal to me, so this is something I pay attention to.

If someone is just doing slow fire and only paying attention to whether the gun is painful to shoot, no, they probably wouldn't notice very much. But if you're in an environment where .18 splits versus .22 splits are a big deal, yeah, you'll notice it.

 

[fxvr5]

thanks for the extra info, atldave. i'm just skeptical that the force generated by the powder gases is twenty percent of the total force.

Here's an article on how much gunpowder adds to recoil force:

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/GUNPOWDER'S+CONTRIBUTION+TO+RECOIL.-a0545669332

 

[murf]

Here's an article on how much gunpowder adds to recoil force:

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/GUNPOWDER'S+CONTRIBUTION+TO+RECOIL.-a0545669332

thanks for the info.

murf

 

[Walkalong]

i don't think a shooter can tell the difference in powder charge by feeling the difference in the recoil of the pistol.

Load up some 125s up to the same velocity with WST and WSF and you can feel a difference.

 

[Walkalong]

Having loaded to similar power factors (momentum) rounds with different powders, I can tell you that I definitely notice the difference between, say, HS6 or Silhouette on one hand versus, say, VVN320 on the other.

Yep.

 

[murf]

Load up some 125s up to the same velocity with WST and WSF and you can feel a difference.

i plan on it, but using a fast/slow combo in my powder collection.

murf

 

[murf]

fyi, i did this test yesterday. loaded up 125g lrnfp bullets, mixed cases, cci 500 primers, .003" crimp, with 4.0 grains titegroup and 6.0 grains hs6. both loads chronograph @ 1090 fps, give or take. i made 15 rounds of each and loaded them in two separate magazines. test gun is a glock 19.

i did a blind test using a very good friend of mine, an excellent shot, as a guinea pig. i asked him to note any difference in recoil between the two loadings. i handed him a magazine, he shot five shots, handed him the other magazine, he shot five shots. then, i handed him another magazine without him knowing if it was the first or the second one he had already fired, and he fired five more rounds. finally, i handed him the other magazine, he fired a final five rounds.

he said the first magazine i gave him (with the hs6 rounds) recoiled harder than the second magazine. then, he said the last magazine i gave him (with the titegroup rounds) recoiled harder.

prior to him shooting, i shot five rounds out of each magazine (with my eyes closed) to see if i could tell the difference. i could not tell any difference in recoil.

so, in conclusion, there is no difference in felt recoil between these two loadings. i can't tell and my friend can't tell, but, i could only get a two grain difference while keeping the same velocity. ymmv

murf

 

[mcb]

fyi, i did this test yesterday. loaded up 125g lrnfp bullets, mixed cases, cci 500 primers, .003" crimp, with 4.0 grains titegroup and 6.0 grains hs6. both loads chronograph @ 1090 fps, give or take. i made 15 rounds of each and loaded them in two separate magazines. test gun is a glock 19.

i did a blind test using a very good friend of mine, an excellent shot, as a guinea pig. i asked him to note any difference in recoil between the two loadings. i handed him a magazine, he shot five shots, handed him the other magazine, he shot five shots. then, i handed him another magazine without him knowing if it was the first or the second one he had already fired, and he fired five more rounds. finally, i handed him the other magazine, he fired a final five rounds.

he said the first magazine i gave him (with the hs6 rounds) recoiled harder than the second magazine. then, he said the last magazine i gave him (with the titegroup rounds) recoiled harder.

prior to him shooting, i shot five rounds out of each magazine (with my eyes closed) to see if i could tell the difference. i could not tell any difference in recoil.

so, in conclusion, there is no difference in felt recoil between these two loadings. i can't tell and my friend can't tell, but, i could only get a two grain difference while keeping the same velocity. ymmv

murf

No doubt the amount of recoil difference in those two loads in your particular example is very small 2 grs and feeling the difference would be very hard to feel over a span of 5-10 shots of each. Using the classic SAAMI calculation there should have only been a touch over 2% difference in recoil impulse and ~4.6% difference in free recoil energy. In my 44 Mag example at the beginning of the thread where I believe I could tell the difference I had nearly 10gr difference in propellant weight and nearly twice the difference in calculated impulse and free recoil energy. Not to mention a huge difference in muzzle blast to aid perception.

The thing is even though you might not feel the difference 2 gr of powder makes when you only fire five of each load I bet if you where to shoot 500 rds of one load in a long day of training or competing and then a few days later repeat that firing 500 rds of the other load the very minor differences in recoil would be telling in additional fatigue in heavier propellant load.

 

[ATLDave]

murf, at those levels, the difference is going to be in stuff like how the sights track... not whether it hurts or not (neither of those loads will be painful, so neither will have "much" recoil).

When you say your friend is an "excellent shot," what kind of excellent shot are we talking about?

 

[murf]

murf, at those levels, the difference is going to be in stuff like how the sights track... not whether it hurts or not (neither of those loads will be painful, so neither will have "much" recoil).

When you say your friend is an "excellent shot," what kind of excellent shot are we talking about?

he has been shooting a very long time, has shot a lot of heavy recoiling handguns (44 mag, etc.) and is fairly honest. he was shooting clay pigeon pieces offhand at about 15 yards away while he was doing the test. no pieces survived the test!

murf

 

[ATLDave]

That makes sense, as none of that kind of shooting or background would tend to make one attuned to small differences in how the sights are moving in recoil.

Get a bunch of serious practical/speed shooting competitors together and re-run the test.

 

[murf]

No doubt the amount of recoil difference in those two loads in your particular example is very small 2 grs and feeling the difference would be very hard to feel over a span of 5-10 shots of each. Using the classic SAAMI calculation there should have only been a touch over 2% difference in recoil impulse and ~4.6% difference in free recoil energy. In my 44 Mag example at the beginning of the thread where I believe I could tell the difference I had nearly 10gr difference in propellant weight and nearly twice the difference in calculated impulse and free recoil energy. Not to mention a huge difference in muzzle blast to aid perception.

The thing is even though you might not feel the difference 2 gr of powder makes when you only fire five of each load I bet if you where to shoot 500 rds of one load in a long day of training or competing and then a few days later repeat that firing 500 rds of the other load the very minor differences in recoil would be telling in additional fatigue in heavier propellant load.

understand the large difference in powder charge in your example will matter a lot more, but i was trying to test the other claim of a four to six grain difference can be felt. your example would also have a lot more recoil compared to the weight of the pistol than my test and probably has a greater affect on the difference in felt recoil than my test.

i guess i'll have to work up a test with 158 grain bullets in the 357 magnum.

murf

 

[Jim Watson]

Ran a bullet weight, not powder, test a number of years ago. .357 Magnum, bullets 125, 158, 195 gr, Major Power factor with 2400.
In slow fire, it was easy to tell a difference, but in rapid, the 158 and 195 were equivalent. The 125 was just nasty under any conditions.

 

[Zendude]

Faster powders usually feel snappier, all other factors being equal. Total recoil energy will be the same though.

 

[murf]

That makes sense, as none of that kind of shooting or background would tend to make one attuned to small differences in how the sights are moving in recoil.

Get a bunch of serious practical/speed shooting competitors together and re-run the test.

i'm sure there is someone out there that can detect the felt recoil change in a half grain change in the powder charge. i'm more interested in the average person here.

why are you equating sight movement to felt recoil (i'm not being facetious)? the powder effect on muzzle rise occurs after the bullet leaves the barrel. so, how the sights move in recoil has nothing to do with the powder gas force. please, comment on my reasoning here.

murf

forget what i just said about powder effect on muzzle rise. i get that part. the bullet leaving the barrel has nothing to do with it. but my question is still valid. are there other recoil forces that could contribute to the muzzle rise like more bullet acceleration from the faster powder?

 

[murf]

No doubt the amount of recoil difference in those two loads in your particular example is very small 2 grs and feeling the difference would be very hard to feel over a span of 5-10 shots of each. Using the classic SAAMI calculation there should have only been a touch over 2% difference in recoil impulse and ~4.6% difference in free recoil energy. In my 44 Mag example at the beginning of the thread where I believe I could tell the difference I had nearly 10gr difference in propellant weight and nearly twice the difference in calculated impulse and free recoil energy. Not to mention a huge difference in muzzle blast to aid perception.

The thing is even though you might not feel the difference 2 gr of powder makes when you only fire five of each load I bet if you where to shoot 500 rds of one load in a long day of training or competing and then a few days later repeat that firing 500 rds of the other load the very minor differences in recoil would be telling in additional fatigue in heavier propellant load.

got it. the accumulation of the increase in felt recoil over hundreds of shots can be felt by anyone because of the increased soreness the next day. and atldave saying an increase in sight movement is another way to perceive a felt recoil increase. two ways to feel the increase even if slight.

i'm still going to redo the test with my 357 magnum. i found a couple powders with a six grain difference. i still want to know if one can tell the difference from shot to shot rather than indirectly by sight movement, or accumulated felt recoil difference.

thanks for the lesson guys.

murf

 

[Walkalong]

I can easily tell the difference in recoil from using Sport Pistol or W-231 to push a 180 Gr bullet to 925/950 FPS in .40 vs using Longshot, Blue Dot, or Silhouette to push a 180 to the same velocity. I use this example because it is one I have done recently.

 

[Rule3]

I can easily tell the difference in recoil from using Sport Pistol or W-231 to push a 180 Gr bullet to 925/950 FPS in .40 vs using Longshot, Blue Dot, or Silhouette to push a 180 to the same velocity. I use this example because it is one I have done recently.

Five powders, which do you "feel" more or more felt recoil?

 

[buck460XVR]

Despite all the arguments here, in reality, the OP most likely answered his own question......velocity is where his felt difference is coming from. Still, without a verified chrono reading, anything we give here is just a WAG.

 

[WrongHanded]

Despite all the arguments here, in reality, the OP most likely answered his own question......velocity is where his felt difference is coming from. Still, without a verified chrono reading, anything we give here is just a WAG.

Again, I asked what other factors if any could cause it, besides velocity. I wasn't looking for a definitive answer to what did cause it, only if other variables existed of which I was not aware. I'm struggling to understand why that is such a hard concept. Could it have been velocity? Sure. I never said it couldn't be the reason. But that's not the answer to my question, because my question specifically excluded velocity.

 

[Walkalong]

Five powders, which do you "feel" more or more felt recoil?

More felt recoil for the slower powder and a quicker recoil impulse for the faster powders as well.

 

[Jim Watson]

Years ago, shotgunners went through the same thing. Slow powders to spread out the recoil. I tried it, and as with pistol, was not sensitive enough to tell a difference. It seems to have died out and trapshooters carried on loading Red Dot and similar.

 

[fxvr5]

Hint: Don't put the different loads in different magazines. Put them in the same magazine for a true side-by-side, one-after-the-other comparison.

 

[Jim Watson]

Blind test with partner loading gun. Double blind test, second partner loads magazine, first partner loads gun not knowing what he is handing you.

 

[Walkalong]

Hint: Don't put the different loads in different magazines. Put them in the same magazine for a true side-by-side, one-after-the-other comparison.

That is how I do it with all pistol rounds I want to check when it comes to recoil comparison.

Load A & B

Shoot:
AB, AB, then BA, BA.