Different water jug test of SST, Ballistic Tip, and TTSX

[wombat13]

Here's a link to a Scotsman's ballistic test. He's posting to youtube as letshuntdinner. He uses large water jugs with thick walls that capture the small pieces of bullets better than most jugs I've seen used and makes it easier to see the tiny bits than ballistic gel. Posting here because I think many of you might find it interesting.



I found it very interesting to see all the very tiny pieces of copper and lead in the water, particularly from the SST. I'd rather not have that much lead in my meat. That increases my interest in using monometal for hunting. He does bring up a good point about the TTSX penetrating much more than required and the potential for ricochets. Most of my hunting is from elevated positions, but sometimes I'm on the ground. My main hunting area is also quite rocky ground, but totally forested with no habitation and surrounded by large ridges. I also rarely see so many deer in a group that I'm worried about the exiting bullet wounding/killing another animal.

I'm interested to hear what other hunters think about the results of this test.

 

[Hugger-4641]

I've not killed any deer with the SST, but I'm very happy with the ELDx in 308, 30-06, 300wm, and 6.5cm.
I did load up some TTSX in my 300wm , but didn't get a chance to take a deer with them this year. Maybe next year I'll have an opinion on them.

 

[westernrover]

The SST is a classic super-soft "blow-up" cup and core job like the Sierra Gameking. They're very effective at killing quickly but I would never eat anything shot with either.
Bonded and partition types hold together better and I would think would be critical for larger size game or anything bigger than lightweight deer.
I've only ever used Barnes monos on deer. The results are very positive, but perhaps not as lightning quick as a Gameking type. In my experience, the monos always pass through. Upon 'autopsy,' I can see they do plenty of damage but I also know they're not fragmenting. In the video, the results where the petals were torn off the TTSX were unusual and due to shooting water jugs at very close range with a 7mm Magnum. In my experience, the shots have been through the thoracic cavity, and even a double-lung and heart-shot did not give DRT results but the buck fell 24 yards from the hit. Maybe through the shoulder, spine, or neck would drop it, but I would not take those shots, except maybe the shoulder. I don't know. I'm an old bow hunter and I don't care to experiment with killing.

I'm curious about Lehigh's Controlled Chaos monos. With these, the petals are intentionally shed. The marketing rhetoric is convincing, but the experience I've heard of them has been on hogs. There was a great wealth of experience proving TTSX on deer before I chose it.

"There are two philosophies when it comes to bullets. One that believes rapid expansion, moderate penetration and weight loss is best [SST, Gameking], while the other believes that moderate expansion, deep penetration and virtually no weight loss is best [TTSX, CX]. Both have their virtues and applications, but why settle for one or the other when you can have both?

Controlled Chaos bullets offer the best of both. Once fluid is impacted, they shed the front portion of the bullet into multiple petals that radiate outward away from the bullets initial trajectory path resulting in a massive energy spike. The bore diameter base of the bullet continues and penetrates deeply in a straight line. Both the temporary and permanent wound cavity created by this bullet separation is dramatic resulting in quick incapacitation. The solid base creates additional tissue damage and often results in full penetration of the animal."​

I added the bullet types in bold brackets.

My main concern with the Controlled Chaos is that it seems quite probable that the petals are simply shed and lack the mass or momentum to do anything but stop. Won't the stem of the bullet penetrate while it just leaves the petals behind? Wouldn't it be better for the momentum of the stem to drive the petals through?

 

[wombat13]

I shot two deer with the 100 gr TTSX in a .25-06 this year. Both were broadside shots through the lungs just above the heart. One was 60 yards and the other 180 yards. Both dropped instantly as if they were hit by lightning. My BIL shot two deer last year with 180 gr TTSX in .30-06, so moderate velocity, maybe 2500 fps at impact. Both deer dropped in their tracks. As of now, I have no doubts about the instant shock created by TTSX bullets on whitetail.

This is very different than my experience with TSX. I shot 10 deer with 165 TSX in .300wm. Nearly all of those shots were in the lungs and all of the deer ran, some a fairly long way and often without much blood trail. I stopped using them and went back to cup/core until I saw the performance of TTSX for my BIL.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

I'll have to give it a watch!

I really want to use monolithic copper rounds, but sadly my oddball RCM only had Hornady SST in any useable quantity from the factory.

Having said that, the SST put a baseball sized hole through my moose.

 

[wombat13]

I'll have to give it a watch!

I really want to use monolithic copper rounds, but sadly my oddball RCM only had Hornady SST in any useable quantity from the factory.

Having said that, the SST put a baseball sized hole through my moose.

You have to get into reloading!

 

[westernrover]

I shot two deer with the 100 gr TTSX in a .25-06 this year. Both were broadside shots through the lungs just above the heart. One was 60 yards and the other 180 yards. Both dropped instantly as if they were hit by lightning. My BIL shot two deer last year with 180 gr TTSX in .30-06, so moderate velocity, maybe 2500 fps at impact. Both deer dropped in their tracks. As of now, I have no doubts about the instant shock created by TTSX bullets on whitetail.

My experience has been with the 6.5mm 115 grain impacting two deer at about 2200 fps in either case and the 6.5mm LRX at 2500 fps. The LRX had particularly good shot placement. There was an exit and a tree branch broken by the exited bullet (deer was in front of the tree), no blood trail at all for 20 yards, then tons of blood between 20 and 24 yards where the deer fell.

If I get a tag this year, I'm hoping to put a 6.5mm TTSX on a pronghorn at ~2700 fps (120 gr) or ~3000 fps (100 grain). This will be a different rifle. I haven't decided which weight bullet yet, but I will use the same one for pronghorn and mule deer. I can hope that the additional velocity will give me the "hit by lightning" result.

 

[wombat13]

My experience has been with the 6.5mm 115 grain impacting two deer at about 2200 fps in either case and the 6.5mm LRX at 2500 fps. The LRX had particularly good shot placement. There was an exit and a tree branch broken by the exited bullet (deer was in front of the tree), no blood trail at all for 20 yards, then tons of blood between 20 and 24 yards where the deer fell.

If I get a tag this year, I'm hoping to put a 6.5mm TTSX on a pronghorn at ~2700 fps (120 gr) or ~3000 fps (100 grain). This will be a different rifle. I haven't decided which weight bullet yet, but I will use the same one for pronghorn and mule deer. I can hope that the additional velocity will give me the "hit by lightning" result.

I would definitely try the 100 gr TTSX in your shoes. Member JimKirk is using the 80 gr in .25-06 on whitetail. The SD of that bullet is 0.173 and it is plenty for whitetail. I'm shooting the 100 gr in .25-06 and I can confirm that it will absolutely ruin a whitetail's day. The SD of that bullet is .216. The 100 gr 6.5mm bullet has a SD of 0.205, between the two bullets I mentioned but closer to the 100 gr I'm using. I would not hesitate to use it on a mule deer. I'd only move up in bullet weight if I were going for a bigger animal.

 

[courtgreene]

In my experience, and this is not said pejoratively, deer tend to run more after being hit by ttsx or tsx than with cup and cores (specifically game kings). That’s in response to wombat13’s offering. I wonder if chamberings made the difference. I’ve shot them in 8mm and .308 (ttsx) as well as .300wsm (tsx and ttsx). Of all those the only one that reacted as if hit by lightning was the .308. The 8mm has probably taken ten deer. They all ran. Not far, but still.

Anyway good OP. Informative.

 

[wombat13]

My experience has been with the 6.5mm 115 grain impacting two deer at about 2200 fps in either case and the 6.5mm LRX at 2500 fps. The LRX had particularly good shot placement. There was an exit and a tree branch broken by the exited bullet (deer was in front of the tree), no blood trail at all for 20 yards, then tons of blood between 20 and 24 yards where the deer fell.

If I get a tag this year, I'm hoping to put a 6.5mm TTSX on a pronghorn at ~2700 fps (120 gr) or ~3000 fps (100 grain). This will be a different rifle. I haven't decided which weight bullet yet, but I will use the same one for pronghorn and mule deer. I can hope that the additional velocity will give me the "hit by lightning" result.

Barnes website used to have more information about their bullets than it has now. I believe their recommendation for min velocity is 2000 fps for the TSX and TTSX. I know nothing about the TAC-TX (which I think must be the 115 gr 6.5 mm bullet you used). In any case, I think 2,200 fps is getting very close to the minimum velocity that will get expansion in these bullets. Sounds like your LRX at 2,500 fps did alright. In any case, it is best to drive the TTSX as fast as you can.

 

[archeryrob]

The SST is a classic super-soft "blow-up" cup and core job like the Sierra Gameking. They're very effective at killing quickly but I would never eat anything shot with either.

I shot a doe with an SST and pulled just a hair right and hit the shoulder bone. It blew 1" hole in the shoulder and destroyed all meat in a 3" diameter. So bad I tossed the shoulder. The bullet went from there to enter one side of the heart and the exit of the heart opening it like a flower on the far side. I couldn't find any substantial pieces of bullet and figured it frag'ed everywhere. I hate the idea of possible having lead in my meat. Went to core-lokts while making cast round with flat noses after that. It kills quick and the devastation and meat destruction was way to much for me to handle.

 

[mcb]

Good video. I have always said the best thing you can do is go shoot sh@t, the more you shoot the better you know you gun and its terminal effect. I also use a metal detector to recover bullets. I do for hunting too if I know the general area the bullet went.

Through a Raccoon at ~18 yards and three feet of forest floor.

Through a 140 lb doe neck to belly, and a foot of chert.
I am a fan of Barnes bullets and for my hunting I never worry about over pentation but I do know my target and what lies beyond.

I have a whole collection of bullets fired through various things and critters. Love finding the bullets after shooting stuff if I can.

 

[JimKirk]

I would definitely try the 100 gr TTSX in your shoes. Member JimKirk is using the 80 gr in .25-06 on whitetail. The SD of that bullet is 0.173 and it is plenty for whitetail. I'm shooting the 100 gr in .25-06 and I can confirm that it will absolutely ruin a whitetail's day. The SD of that bullet is .216. The 100 gr 6.5mm bullet has a SD of 0.205, between the two bullets I mentioned but closer to the 100 gr I'm using. I would not hesitate to use it on a mule deer. I'd only move up in bullet weight if I were going for a bigger animal.

Yeah those little 80 grain TTSX(.25/06 3680 fps) do a quick number on 200 lbs whitetail ... so does the 80 grain TTSX in the .243 Win(3300fps)...

Both are accurate in both my .25/06 and .243 Win...
My hunting buddy killed a midsize doe with the 80 grain TTSX...3500 fps out the 6mm Remington 26" #1 Ruger ...never moved out of tracks..

 

[JimKirk]

I do not care for the Barnes TSX in the two cartridges I use ... just my findings that the TSX do not expand as reliable as do the TTSX ... if I were hunting heavier game than whitetail ...they may work ok... I will stick with the TTSX for the time being...

 

[wombat13]

I do not care for the Barnes TSX in the two cartridges I use ... just my findings that the TSX do not expand as reliable as do the TTSX ... if I were hunting heavier game than whitetail ...they may work ok... I will stick with the TTSX for the time being...

That matches my experience. I was not happy with TSX and 11 deer I shot with it, including the only deer I've ever lost after shooting it with a firearm. The TSX has a smaller nose cavity, at least in average to small calibers, by which I mean .308 and smaller (look for cross section photos online). I do not believe that they open as quickly as TTSX.

 

[LoonWulf]

I generally shoot tipped match bullets, but i do have a couple of boxes of 120ttsx ive been considered driving to ludicrous speed from my 28 Nosler....still havent done it yet tho.

Still I've got no complaints with the softer bullets at reasonable velocities. Performance on game has been excellent.
I have had 162 grain amax blow up in flight when launching in the +3200fps range, but the ones that actually made it to the target did the job no problem.

 

[wombat13]

I generally shoot tipped match bullets, but i do have a couple of boxes of 120ttsx ive been considered driving to ludicrous speed from my 28 Nosler....still havent done it yet tho.

Still I've got no complaints with the softer bullets at reasonable velocities. Performance on game has been excellent.
I have had 162 grain amax blow up in flight when launching in the +3200fps range, but the ones that actually made it to the target did the job no problem.

In a 28 Nosler, those may go plaid! You should definitely do it!

 

[rizbunk77]

I shot two deer with the 100 gr TTSX in a .25-06 this year. Both were broadside shots through the lungs just above the heart. One was 60 yards and the other 180 yards. Both dropped instantly as if they were hit by lightning. My BIL shot two deer last year with 180 gr TTSX in .30-06, so moderate velocity, maybe 2500 fps at impact. Both deer dropped in their tracks. As of now, I have no doubts about the instant shock created by TTSX bullets on whitetail.

This is very different than my experience with TSX. I shot 10 deer with 165 TSX in .300wm. Nearly all of those shots were in the lungs and all of the deer ran, some a fairly long way and often without much blood trail. I stopped using them and went back to cup/core until I saw the performance of TTSX for my BIL.

And youve got a good amount of speed in that combo to get those ttsx to open up.

 

[rizbunk77]

I am wary of fragmenting copper. Dont want sharp petals in our meat.

 

[daniel craig]

I like the Barnes TSX the one that DOESN'T have the ballistic tip.

 

[Bottom Gun]

I do not care for the Barnes TSX in the two cartridges I use ... just my findings that the TSX do not expand as reliable as do the TTSX ... if I were hunting heavier game than whitetail ...they may work ok... I will stick with the TTSX for the time being...

Well darn, I don’t like hearing that. I just picked up a bunch of 85 gr TSX to load for my .243. Looks like I’ll have to do some serious testing.

Did the TSX you used fail to expand or did they not expand as well as the TTSX?
Were they unreliable at all distances or mostly at longer range?

 

[JimKirk]

Well darn, I don’t like hearing that. I just picked up a bunch of 85 gr TSX to load for my .243. Looks like I’ll have to do some serious testing.

Did the TSX you used fail to expand or did they not expand as well as the TTSX?
Were they unreliable at all distances or mostly at longer range?

I found that either they expanded or penciled through... but were not really predictable on whitetail deer ... I have not had that problem with the TTSX... Larger animals the TSX may be fine ... but I have no experience with anything larger than whitetail... again this is with .284" and smaller cartridges ...

I believe Barnes figured this out also when they came out with the TTSX as an bullet ...

 

[rizbunk77]

I think I would become a shoulder shooter if I used copper, dont care if it pencils through as long as it breaks both front shoulders

 

[wombat13]

I found that either they expanded or penciled through... but were not really predictable on whitetail deer ... I have not had that problem with the TTSX... Larger animals the TSX may be fine ... but I have no experience with anything larger than whitetail... again this is with .284" and smaller cartridges ...

I believe Barnes figured this out also when they came out with the TTSX as an bullet ...

Looks like we lost a few posts in the paused upgrade.

That was exactly my experience. I shot 11 deer with the 165 gr TSX in my .300WM. MV about 3,100 fps. A few had great expansion with excellent blood trails. Others seemed to pencil through with such a small exit I couldn't find it. All the deer ran a bit, but some ran a long way. One of these was the only deer I have ever lost after shooting it with a firearm.

BulletCross-Sections_zpse7a9fec2

• wombat13
• Nov 2, 2022

Cross sections of .277" mono-metal bullets

This is a photo I found online of .277 cal copper bullets. See how much wider the TTSX cavity is than the TSX? I believe that is why the TTSX opens more reliably than the TSX. That TSX cavity is as thin as a wire. You can only make the shank of the plastic tip so thin before it won't be rigid enough to insert it into the cavity of the TTSX, so the cavity can't be as thin as what you see in this TSX.

The TSX cavity may be larger in larger calibers. They certainly seem to perform for mcb in the 450 bushmaster. The Barnes Expander MZ that I use in my muzzleloader have a cavity so large you might think it's a shot glass.

 

[wombat13]

By the way, the individual who created that bullet image above has done some extremely interesting analysis of bullet expansion. He has even correlated his bullet testing to bullets recovered from game. Here are a couple of links:

https://www.huntingnut.com/index.ph...opic&t=10526&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

The above link is a summary of his results testing copper bullets.

This next link includes testing of many more bullets. The first post has links to all of his bullet tests.

https://www.68forums.com/threads/6-8-spc-bullet-performance.33178/

We always talk about impact velocity determining bullet expansion, but he finds that it's actually energy that creates expansion. This makes sense because in physics energy is the capacity to do work and work is required to deform the bullet.

Anyway, I found his testing fascinating.