Discovery Channel Top 10 Combat Rifles...no Mosin...do you think it's fair??

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I think it is more than fair. The Mosin does not compare in anyway to the 1903, K98 or No1 Mk III* or the No4 Mk1. The Mosin is not nearly as accurate as any of those, not nearly as ergonomic nor as fast shooting. For something that was designed to be used by hordes of illiterate conscripts and then purchased 50 years later for less than $100 at Big 5 it has done fine. And the Mosin did a great deal in the hands of Russian soldiers to defeat the Nazis, and in turn force communism on Eastern Europe. But the Mosin is out classed in every way by the bolt action rifles that did make the list.
 
The Finns demonstrated otherwise.

Ahh, you beat me to it.
The Finn M39 Mosins are smooth and accurate. They were a Russian grunt's wish-weapon (as in, I wish I had one of THOSE).
 
Cool looking Finn sniper rifle. Thanks for the link. But those are not stock Service Rifle compatible rifles. I was talking more along the lines of shooting Service Rifle matches here in the US. Shoot a stock 1903 vs a stock Mosin and lets see what happens. I am not trying to deride the Mosin I respect what it is. But to say that a Mosin, except a Finn, is the same or better than those rifles that made the list is a bit of a stretch.
 
But the Mosin is out classed in every way by the bolt action rifles that did make the list.

I'll grant you that the SMLE is the best overall combat bolt action rifle ever made, but the Mosin-Nagant is at least equal to the Mauser 98 or the Springfield knockoffs of the Mauser 98. The action is slightly faster and equally strong. The wartime Soviet production tended to get pretty ratty, but so did the Mauser production. I've had some wartime 98's that were very rough. To compare you'd need to put the cruddy ones against the cruddy ones and the best against the best. On the cruddy end of the Mauser spectrum you'd need to compare the ratty Turks with the ratty wartime Soviets, and I've fired a lot of both. I'd much prefer using the ratty Soviet 91/30's to the Turks. No offense to Turkey. On the high end, very few military Mausers could outshoot a Finn 28-30.

But those are not stock Service Rifle compatible rifles

The M27, M28, M28-30, M39, M30, M91 etc. are all stock rifles and range from 2MOA to sub MOA when matched with the proper Finnish ammo or equivalent.

But to say that a Mosin, except a Finn, is the same or better than those rifles that made the list is a bit of a stretch.

I've had some Soviet 91/30s that are on par with a service unmodified Springfield or military Mauser 98. Besides, if accuracy was the sole requirement the Garand would be replaced by the K31 Schmidt-Rubin. The Mosin-Nagant fought through two world wars and innumerable lesser conflicts and proved itself to be very reliable and sufficiently accurate. The troops who used that rifle had no less love for it than our guys did for their Garands and Springfields. And its record in pitched close combat is at least equal to the Mauser. It great limitation was the fact that by the end of WWII it lacked the firepower found in more modern combat weapons, but that would also apply to all bolt action rifles. Furthermore, the Mosin ultimately survived for many years in the field when the other bolt action war rifles had been consigned to scrapheaps and museums. And that's not just inside the pact nations. The Finns were still issuing M39's in the early 1970's and as shown above even developed a modern sniper rifle based on the Mosin's action.

The *TACTICAL* limitations of the Russian and Soviet military mind should not be confused with the *TECHNICAL* merits of the rifle the frontoviks carried.
 
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How do the Nazi contract Czech VZ-24's rate in all this? I have heard they are among the best Mausers; do they rate a cut above the ubiquitous K98?
 
Gus

Here you go, some commercial long range target rifles based on Russian Mosin actions.

It is an old 1965 Italian gun catalog, the rifles were imported from the Soviet Union by a company called Raznoexports and the brand name was Vostok.

One of the reasons (the main reason I suspect) why there are not many commercial rifles based on the Mosin is because of the cold war.

If I remember correctly, the Russian won a world target competition in the early 80's in Caracas using Mosin actions.

Commercial%20Mosin%202.jpg


Commercial%20Mosin%201.jpg
 
Agreed, the Mosin should be on there. The 03 Springfield is basically a different flavor of the K98k. The short service life of the M14 also makes its inclusion on this list dubious. Steyer AUG? Neat rifle, not a "Top 10" by any means. I think the MP40 should be on the list (first? mass produced and issued weapon made of stampings), Mosin-Nagant, and probably the MP44 for the simple reason that it set the patter for all military shoulder-fired arms for the rest of the century, and beyond.
 
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Fellas, I have learned a lot in this thread, and thank you for it. The AUG, yeah why that one is on there is anyone's guess. So I will say this, drop the AUG and add the Mosin. I think we can all agree that we love our rifles and that this list could be made 10 different ways by 10 different people.
 
There was also a competition model from the Vostok brand in 6.5 cal, which was a 7,62x54R round necked down to 6.5

They sold quite a few in UK.
 
For something that was designed to be used by hordes of illiterate conscripts and then purchased 50 years later for less than $100 at Big 5 it has done fine.
Gus, I forgot


The main reasons why you can buy a Mosin for less than $100 at Big 5 are two:

1) The sheer quantity of Mosin produced, in the 37 mil range.

2) These rifles were not destroyed, as happened with many old western guns, they were either handed out to friendly countries by the boatload or kept in cosmoline for decades.

If we had less supply, the prices would be up there with the Enfield, the Mausers and the Springfields ....some specific models of the MN already command steep prices.
 
The *TACTICAL* limitations of the Russian and Soviet military mind should not be confused with the *TECHNICAL* merits of the rifle the frontoviks carried.

Exactly. The Finns built their rifles on Russian receivers and actions, only replacing the stocks and barrels. Finnish Mosins are just accurized Russian Mosins, rather than a different class of rifle altogether. Finnish and Russian Mosins are fundamentally still the same design, and the Finns showed that the design is not inherently less accurate than other rifle designs.

Here's a source regarding what receivers were used in Finn Mosins:
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinRareFinnLate.htm
"All Finnish rifles are built on receivers from Russian rifles"
 
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Let's leave the submachine guns (MP40, UZI, PPSH) out of this list.

M14 and Aug leave please... thank you for your time.
1903... also thank you for your time.
SMLE.... please take 4 steps back in the line.
Mr. Nagant please take the 9 postion.
Brown Bess please join the fray.


Brown Bess or the British Army's Land Pattern Musket and its derivatives were used in the era of the expansion of the British Empire. The Land Pattern musket and its derivatives, all .75 caliber flintlock muskets, were the standard long guns of the British Empire's land forces from 1722 until 1838 when they were superseded by a percussion cap smoothbore musket.
 
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The Show Rated each rifle on;

1. Accuracy
2. Combat effectiveness
3. Innovation
4. Handling
5. Service length

Here's the show's results and explanation for why;
10. M14:
Accuracy: Excellent
Combat effectiveness: Excellent
Innovation: Average
Handling: Average
Service length: Very Low

By the end of World War II, with an American infantry platoon carrying as many as four different weapons -- and four types of ammo -- the U.S. Army decided to develop a single weapon that could fulfill multiple roles. The result was the M14. First fielded in 1957, the rugged, accurate new rifle had plenty of stopping power with the standard NATO 7.62 mm round. It first saw major action in Vietnam, where soldiers liked its performance but struggled with the weight of both gun and ammunition. Before long it was phased out in favor of the lighter M16, but a few frontline units still use the classic weapon, primarily as a sniper rifle.

9. Stg44:
Accuracy: Poor
Combat effectiveness: Excellent
Innovation: Very High
Handling: Average
Service length: Very Low


The Wehrmacht hadn't been at war with the Soviet Union for long when it became clear that German infantry with their bolt-action Mausers were often at a disadvantage in firefights with Russian automatic weapons. In response, German armament developers came up with a revolutionary new weapon: the first "assault rifle" (the literal translation of the German Sturmgewehr). The key to its success was a shorter 7.92 mm round that allowed for effective automatic fire and permitted soldiers to carry sufficient ammunition. The Sturmgewehr came too late to play a significant role in World War II, but it wins high marks for innovation.

8. 1903 Springfield:
Accuracy: Excellent
Combat effectiveness: Low
Innovation: Low
Handling: Low
Service length: Very high


The relatively poor performance of the Norwegian Krag-Jorgensen rifle used by U.S. troops in the Spanish-American War led American planners to look elsewhere for a standard infantry weapon. They "borrowed" the more effective action found on the German 7mm Mauser, added a few modifications, and produced a magazine-fed rifle that boasted phenomenal accuracy. The 1903 quickly gained a reputation as an outstandingly accurate and powerful firearm -- at the Battle of Belleau Wood in 1918, U.S. Marines armed with Springfields cut down enemy counterattacks from 700 to 800 yards away. The rifle continued in service through World War II and Korea and even saw combat as a sniper rifle in Vietnam.

7. Steyr AUG:
Accuracy: Average
Combat effectiveness: Very good
Innovation: Very High
Handling: Excellent
Service length: Low


Looking more like a weapon from a science-fiction movie, the Steyr's only serious "flaw" is the advanced design that seemed to scare away potential customers after its introduction in 1977. In this radically new "bull-pup" configuration most of the barrel, receiver and action, instead of being in front of the operator's firing hand, is all moved back in the stock, resulting in a remarkably compact weapon that is light and easy to handle. The Steyr also features an interchangeable barrel system, a transparent magazine, and optional left or right shell ejection capability.

6. Mauser 98K:
Accuracy: Excellent
Combat effectiveness: Average
Innovation: Very High
Handling: Average
Service length: Very High


First produced at the end of the 19th century, the Mauser 98 was the perfect synthesis of the many innovations that rifles had undergone during the late 19th century: smokeless powder, clips that could be fed into magazines and, most of all, its superb bolt action that is still the basis for most modern hunting rifles. The original model 98 was used during World War I to great effect, but when Germany started rearming in the 1930s the rifle received upgrades that made it lighter and easier to sight and shoot. Inevitably outgunned by automatic weapons, the Mauser nevertheless stands as one of the legendary rifles of the modern age.

5. FN FAL:
Accuracy: Average
Combat effectiveness: Average
Innovation: High
Handling: Average
Service length: Very High


Inspired by the Sturmgewehr 44, the Belgian manufacturer Fabrique Nationale (FN) originally developed the FAL around the same intermediate round used by the German gun, but when NATO issued the requirement for the longer 7.62 mm, FN altered the design and created a heavy hitter that packs a punch -- and a potent kick. The FAL soon became one of the classic weapons of the Cold War, used by over 50 countries, even if it proved tough to handle in full auto mode. The rifle gave good service to the Australian army in the jungles of Vietnam, to Israeli troops during the Six-Day War and was used by both sides in the fight for the Falkland Islands.

4. M1 Garand:
Accuracy: Good
Combat effectiveness: Excellent
Innovation: High
Handling: Good
Service length: Average


Adopted by the U.S. Army in 1936, the M1 Garand proved to be a tough, heavy battle rifle when it entered combat five years later. General Patton remarked at the end of World War II that the M1 may have been the greatest battle implement ever devised. A bit of a stretch perhaps, but there's no doubt that the M1 was the first successful semiautomatic rifle issued in any quantity that had the ruggedness and accuracy to dominate the battlefield. Over 6.25 million Garands had been manufactured by the time it was taken out of service in the early 1960s.

3. SMLE:
Accuracy: High
Combat effectiveness: High
Innovation: Average
Handling: High
Service length: Very Long


The standard infantry weapon of British troops from World War I to the 1956 Suez crisis, the Lee-Enfield SMLE (pronounced "smelly") built its reputation on reliability, accuracy and a phenomenal rate of fire. Its magazine carried 10 bullets, the largest capacity of any rifle on the battlefield during the first half of the 20th century. Its short bolt action cocked on closing, and its muzzle cap prevented dirt from clogging the weapon. In the hands of a well-trained infantryman, the Lee-Enfield could perform what was called the "mad minute," i.e., thirty rounds hitting a target 200 meters distant in one minute, a volume of fire that rivals modern semiautomatic weapons.

2. M16:
Accuracy: High
Combat effectiveness: High
Innovation: High
Handling: High
Service length: Long


Although it took a little time to work out the gun's jamming problems during its combat trials in the early 1960s, the M16 has proven to be an outstanding performer with superb accuracy, handling, service length and combat effectiveness. The rifle fulfilled the U.S. military's desire to develop a lightweight modern assault rifle that could replace the semiautomatic M1 and its selective-fire counterpart, the M14. Its innovative features include lighter metal alloy and plastic construction, a simple gas reload system and the use of 5.56 mm ammunition, allowing soldiers to carry twice the amount of ammunition for the same weight of 7.62 mm rounds.

1. AK-47:
Accuracy: Average
Combat effectiveness: Excellent
Innovation: Excellent
Handling: Excellent
Service length: Very Long

With over 75 million built worldwide, the AK-47 (a.k.a., "Kalashnikov") is a firearms legend that has probably inflicted more lethal results than any other single weapon system ever produced. Built on the same basic design as the German Sturmgewehr, it chambered an intermediate round and was built from stamped parts. The AK-47 was not only easy to produce and relatively cheap, is also proved remarkably easy to maintain and virtually immune to conditions that could easily take out other guns. Accuracy is average, but the Kalashnikov compensates for this with its ability to unleash a lethal wall of lead.

Cited from;
http://military.discovery.com/technology/weapons/rifles-intro.html
http://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2006/11/top-ten-battle-rifles-huh.html
 
Little nitpick, Axeman. Brown Bess isn't a rifle, so it seems out of place on a list of combat /rifles/.


I'd drop the 1903 and the M14 from the list as well. The 1903 has much more history as a sniper rifle, and the M14 is more like a footnote of the Garand.

AUG gets to stay because it's the first successful bullpup design, and just because we might not personally care for bullpup layout ergonomics doesn't mean it's not a significant step in history. It does get bumped back behind the StG-44 though.

SMLE gets moved behind the Garand, but its performance in WW1 keeps it high on my list.

Mauser gets moved up above the FN FAL. The Mauser action was just too groundbreaking to stay behind there.

So that leaves my list:

1: AK-47
2: AR-15/M-16
3: M1 Garand
4: Lee Enfield
5: Mauser
6: FN FAL
7: Steyr AUG
8: StG-44

9 on my list goes to the M1 Carbine. It's just really hard to argue with its service history, which is still ongoing.

Finally, the Mosin gets number 10. The design just didn't bring any new capabilities to rifle design like the Mauser and the Lee Enfield did. In fact, some gun writers speculate the only reason the Mosin was designed was to avoid paying royalties to use an already existing bolt action design. BUT it does have a long history of use, and even though most of its popularity is recent (hard to dislike an $80 rifle), I can't think of anything else to go into the #10 spot.
 
Given the amount of action that took place on the Eastern Front, it deserves the title of "the rifle that won WW2."

Like Cleetus03 pointed out, that's a bit of a stretch. In that measure, it just happened to be the run-of-the-mill late-19th century design that was hanging around when WWII came. Even the British planned to replace the Enfield by that time; the Great Depression and reduced spending interfered.

Artillery, air power, automatic weapons and sheer weight of numbersprovided the firepower and edge that defeated the Germans on the battlefield - the individual weapons were secondary. Likewise, the Garand and 1911 didn't "make" the US win, either. Two guys with an Sg44 in a foxhole were no match for 20 guys with Mosins supported by Yaks and rocket-equipped mobile artillery. But which gun would you rather have?

I think the M14 has a deserved place as a robust and cutting-edge automatic rifle and don't begrudge that. Though I agree with others that the SKS has a deserved place ahead of the Mosin and possibly the M14. The one gun on there I think the Mosin might edge is the Springfield '03.

9 on my list goes to the M1 Carbine. It's just really hard to argue with its service history, which is still ongoing.

But since the category is "battle/combat rifles," and it's not one, doesn't that kind of rule it out. The M1 may be an acceptable secondary/support weapon, but it's not a main battle rifle.
 
In no particular order:
AKM
M-16
Mauser 98 and its copies
Dryse needle gun
Henry lever gun
Lee-Enfields
Garands; M1, M14, BM59
STURMGEWEHR 44
FN FAL

and the last spot is tough, the Mosin Nagant is in the running but I can think of some other that might lay claim if only they had taken part in higher profile conflicts.
For those who bemoan the M1 carbine not listed, the catagory is combat rifles, in my mind if the carbine qualifies then I must include the PPSH as well.
 
Dryse needle gun

I think there's a big difference between the top ten overall combat rifles and the top ten MOST INFLUENTIAL. The needle gun was an important step forward in design, but I would never want to have to fire one without a face mask. Likewise, for INFLUENCE the hated old Lebel would have to have the No. 1 spot or something near it since it introduced Poudre B to the world and literally revolutionized small arms technology. The Lebel also fired an experimental copper-jacketed round that made full use of the new high pressure powder. That combination--smokeless powder and copper jackets--is at the core of every major development since and still provides the basis for all modern small arms. But you would not find the Lebel on anyone's list of BEST combat rifles.
 
RX - 178, what units or nations still use the M1 Carbine?

For people mentioning the AUG, it has been used by a few nations for a while now, just never mainstream in large numbers like the others. It is mostly used by national police anti-terrorism/SWAT type teams in Europe. Not that it should be on the list though, it isn't a basic infantry type of weapon....nor a true rifle at all.
 
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