Do you break in your carry pistol with 500 rounds?

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Glock Doctor, neither google nor the search feature on the Shooting Illustrated website you linked to brings up this article. I have no doubt it exists, but for those interested in learning more, can you post a definitive link or a scanned copy?
 
Glock Doctor, neither google nor the search feature on the Shooting Illustrated website you linked to brings up this article. I have no doubt it exists, but for those interested in learning more, can you post a definitive link or a scanned copy?
For your information the article is in the issue specified. I keep my back issues for general information. I'm not in total agreement with the article based on my experience with polymer framed pistols from three different manufactures.
 
Glock Doctor, neither google nor the search feature on the Shooting Illustrated website you linked to brings up this article. I have no doubt it exists, but for those interested in learning more, can you post a definitive link or a scanned copy?
Let's all be cautious about copyright issues in light of this request, please.
 
Thanks, GD. I'm not an engineer, but for all of the reading that I've done on pistols, I'd never run across that. I was certainly completely unaware of that. (Just for the record, I mean that. I'm not being sarcastic, or trying to cast doubt on your words.)

That's OK, Spats. I have no personal interest in whether the information I've posted is accepted, or not. I put up, 'the gist' of the original article several posts before this reply; so people can take it for whatever they will. (A mi no importa!) I will say this, though: Other than incredulity there have been some nonsensical replies to the original post. (I never said, nor meant to imply that 100% pistol performance is, 'forever'. Somebody else said that — not me.)

Neither did I start dealing with Glocks just the other day; I have 15 years of experience working with plastic pistols; and I've also got a good 18,000 + 'HOW TO' and strictly TECHNICAL posts in the GT archives. So, yeah, I should know what I'm talking about, all right! (Mas Ayoob I ain't; but I do know all about pistols and how to use them well.)

As things turned out I had a lot of trouble with the first several Glocks I purchased; and, like it or not, I was forced to really delve into and learn the platform parameters. Without exaggeration, and with no interest in any sort of bragging, to the very best of my knowledge, I am the first person to post on anybody's gun forum that POLYMER FRAME PISTOLS TEND TO VIBRATE, VIOLENTLY, WHENEVER THE PISTOL IS FIRED. I put this remark up on GT a good 2 — 2 1/2 years BEFORE the Austrian engineer Glock sent to Hasbrouck Heights, NJ came out and publicly coined the phrase, 'Harmonic Vibration' in an effort to explain, 'Why' the HHPD couldn't get their G23's to function with a light attached to the frame.

Know what happened when I did that? I started a firestorm of criticism; and WalterGA and his gang of Kool-Aid drinking followers tried to criticize and laugh me off the board. (It took a while; but can you imagine how I smiled to myself when all those Glockeroos suddenly had to, 'eat crow' on that one!)

Let me tell you a true story: I'm an older man with a great deal of pistolsmithing experience. During my first two years working with Glock pistols I had an RO tap me on the shoulder to say, 'I think you should stop firing that Glock immediately!' I answered that I already knew the pistol had a slight tendency not to RTB; and I compensated for it by using only underpowered ammunition. When the RO shook his head and told me to, 'Be careful!' I replied that I was working on the problem — Which I was. It just took me another good year, or so, to finally solve it.

During this time I had an opportunity to correspond with a man who owned an upscale bar & grille in Manhattan. Guess what happened to him? There'd been a few robberies in his neighborhood; and, for self-protection, he went out and bought a brand new 40 caliber G23. He brought it back to the bar, loaded it up with Hydra-Shok HP's, and stuck his new Glock underneath the cash register. Nothing happened for several more months; and he, pretty much, forgot all about his new Glock. Then, one night, just before closing time three men came into his bar, pulled out guns, roughed up some of the wait staff, and announced a robbery.

The bar owner was quick. Instead of opening the cash register, he pulled out his brand new Glock, pointed it at one of the robbers and pulled the trigger. His shot missed; and his Glock jammed. The robbers had better aim; and in the ensuing fusillade the bar owner was hit several times and crippled for life. This man swore that he hadn't limp-wristed the pistol; and his lawyers agreed that something else had caused his Glock to fail. They built a pretty good case for brand new Glocks to behave erratically; and the case advanced to the point where it became another one of Glock, GmbH's infamous out-of-court settlements.

When I (personally) combined this information with the fact that I was repeatedly reading about all sorts of different brand new Glocks failing to perform correctly I decided that, quite possibly, something else might, indeed, be taking place; and I began looking for the answer. As far as I'm concerned I believe that I finally found it. Not to start another stupid internet gun forum argument; but I've, now, shared the information I've gleaned with everyone, here, who wants to read about this technical idiosyncrasy of (actually) all molded polymer products.

Like I said: If anyone doesn't want to either accept or believe what I've offered, then, that's fine with me. I've got no personal stake in what someone else wants to think. I do not, however, believe that being a wise guy, or making smart aleck remarks in reply to the receipt of new information is the cleverest thing I've ever seen someone do. Being a wise guy has never really benefited anybody — not even the wise guy, himself.
 
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I don't buy pistols that need broken in. However, I test my particular pistol, in my hands, with my choice of ammo, for several hundred rounds minimum, with at least 50 of those the defensive JHP round I will load it with, before carrying it. Usually that several hundred ends up being 500. I suppose a "break in" and a "350-500 round function test" is six of one and 5+1 of another
 
POLYMER FRAME PISTOLS TEND TO VIBRATE, VIOLENTLY, WHENEVER THE PISTOL IS FIRED.

The best representation I've seen on this phenomenon was shown on Midways Gun Stories with Joe Mantegna on Glock.. Their slow motion cameras captured it perfectly. The dust cover looked like a diving board bouncing.
 
Glock Doctor,

Thank you for a very informative post. I learned something new about polymer pistols.

I learned the hard way not to criticize Glocks on THR. I asked about why Glocks had different generations when I first joined and got a lot of rude replies. As someone with experience as a Firearms Instructor I have either personally seen or have first hand accounts of Glock failures. I just don't post about them due to the attitude of Glock owners on THR.
 
just don't post about them due to the attitude of Glock owners on THR.
I don't figure we ALL have an attitude problem, BSA1. I'm fairly new to Glocks, my wife's had one a while. But like you, both of us found Glock Doctor's posts interesting and informative.
I think I understand what you're saying though. There does seem to be a lot of Glock worshippers on some of these internet forums. It's just that I'm not one of them. I mean sure, I have a Glock, so does my wife, but we have a lot of guns. Our Glocks fill a certain niche - concealed carry. And because that particular niche is so important, we want to learn as much about our Glocks as we can, both good and bad.:)
 
I don't figure we ALL have an attitude problem, BSA1. I'm fairly new to Glocks, my wife's had one a while. But like you, both of us found Glock Doctor's posts interesting and informative.
I think I understand what you're saying though. There does seem to be a lot of Glock worshippers on some of these internet forums. It's just that I'm not one of them. I mean sure, I have a Glock, so does my wife, but we have a lot of guns. Our Glocks fill a certain niche - concealed carry. And because that particular niche is so important, we want to learn as much about our Glocks as we can, both good and bad.:)

Uh-huh, me too, before I buy one.
I'm one of the "Hard Nosed Hold-Outs" that love all steel guns, but I'm open minded.
 
I have either personally seen or have first hand accounts of Glock failures. I just don't post about them due to the attitude of Glock owners on THR.
BSA It sounds like you need a hug. Please consider yourself hugged. For the record, I don’t remember ever having a firearm that didn’t have a failure of some kind. Even revolvers.

Glock Doctor Interesting, I will have to do some research. Glocks definitely have their little quirks, don’t they?

OP For me it’s not about breaking in the gun as much as it is about me getting to know the gun. It sometimes takes almost no rounds, Glock 17. Sometimes it takes more, G43. I have just over 1000 through the G43 and I am just starting to feel the love. I suspect that it will take a lot more rounds for to feel comfortable carrying this little 9mm.
 
I never said, nor meant to imply that 100% pistol performance is, 'forever'. Somebody else said that — not me.
No, you didn't. For whoever did, a gun either runs 100% or it doesn't. The Colt that I mentioned earlier has been 99.9999% reliable (actually a bit better than that)...close but no cigar. I do not carry that gun. If I did, there was no guarantee that one of those failures would not have happened when the gun was needed.
When I do feel the need to carry, it is either a Makarov or a Glock 36, both of which have been 100% reliable.....so far.
Pete
 
BSA It sounds like you need a hug. Please consider yourself hugged. For the record, I don’t remember ever having a firearm that didn’t have a failure of some kind. Even revolvers.

I got lots of hugs from my wife for the Roses I sent to her for Valentines Day. However I may need a body guard to protect from her male co-workers that ignored their wives.

Glock Doctor Interesting, I will have to do some research. Glocks definitely have their little quirks, don’t they?

I have seen high speed videos of guns flexing when shot. I just never knew that it helped to break-in polymer frames. It makes sense as flexing is something that has to be engineered for.

OP For me it’s not about breaking in the gun as much as it is about me getting to know the gun. It sometimes takes almost no rounds, Glock 17. Sometimes it takes more, G43. I have just over 1000 through the G43 and I am just starting to feel the love. I suspect that it will take a lot more rounds for to feel comfortable carrying this little 9mm.

Ditto.

In addition is it equally, no I think more important, to test the magazines and make sure they are properly made and reliable. Magazines are the weakest link of all firearms that use detachable magazines and easily overlooked.

I have 50 new and used magazines for a new semi-auto I brought last year. So far I have fired a little over 500 rounds through the gun. In doing so I found I had some used magazines that where causing failure to eject or failure to lock the slide open on the last round so I replace the magazine springs with Wolff 10% Extra Power ones. I retested the magazines a couple of weeks ago and they worked perfectly.

I have about 26 more magazines left to test. Since I test my magazines a couple of times before I have confidence in them I am going to be shooting at least 1,650 rounds. Obviously I am not going to carry 50 magazines so I am shooting the mags I am using for self-defense several times first. (Probably one more trip to the range and I will call them good). When I finally get done testing all of the magazines the total will actually be close to 2,000 rounds.

As my usual practice session with this gun is 150 rounds this figures out to 13 – 14 range trips. Of course I like to shoot other guns as well so it doesn’t mean that this gun is going to get shot every time I go to the range.

The upshot of all of this is the gun will be well-tested and my shooting skill had should be darn well better than when I started.
 
Generally my carry guns will have at least 150 rounds through them, before firmly trusted, and they will be the same rounds I will carry. Then, that ammo will be first downrange at my range visits to rotate ammo. Accuracy then determines how much more of the same ammo goes downrange til I'm satisfied I'm current. Sometimes it's only a magazine-sometimes it takes a box.
 
50 Rounds of trouble free shooting is fine for me to rely on.

I also accept the fallibility of all mechanical devices and realize that the more I shoot something the more likely it is to fail. The more you drive a car the more likely it is to fail. So to me required high round counts on a carry gun are counter productive.
 
I "test my carry pistol with 500 rnds" before I carry it with confidence. After 50-100 rnds though, I figure it's broken in. I bought a Browning Black Label 380 last April. It shot well from the box; trigger a little gritty for a 1911 type. After 50 or 100 rounds the single magazine started to stovepipe the 7th round.
Went to the Browning owner's forum and the overwhelming advice was to pinch the magazine lips closer to each other. This seemed like a bad idea since it would surely void the warranty.
After a few months I was able to find and buy a 2nd factory magazine that started out (just like my 1st one) to feed reliably and then started to occasionally stove pipe and finally to regularly stove pipe every 7th round from the magazine. So, then a lot of futzing around trying this and that to no avail (another hundred rounds or more). After disassembling both magazines and measuring any and all dimensions of the internals I could think of, I called Browning and sent the gun and both magazines in for repair. Two months later I had the gun back with two brand new magazines with magazine spring springs of larger diameter wire (!). After over 300 rounds (through the two mags) there was one early-on tip up stove pipe and it wasn't on the 7th round.
Another couple hundred rounds down range with the same reliability and I'll be carrying with confidence.
 
I personally put a box or two of FMJ and a mag or two of what I'm going to carry. If I get no FTEs or FTFs, I call it good. 500 rounds seems pretty excessive. I'm sure ammo companies would LOVE for everyone to shoot 500 or more specialty JHP rounds to consider it carryable.
 
New cars easily have a price tag of $40,000 +. Yet they are often need warranty repair and frequently subject to manufacturer recalls. So why is it ridiculous to buy a new car knowing that the vehicle could need repair and/or a recall?
What man made machine is guaranteed to never need repaired?

Are you serious with these posts, or just trying to stir the pot?
 
The point about new cars needing repairs is not different than new guns. IE the post on a short barreled 1911 which got recalled the week after the poster bought it.

"But, they are supposed to work perfectly out of the box!" And yet repeatedly in posts here and on other forums, the problem is often found to be somebody firing the gun new out of the box with the cheapest available ammo. There seems to be no one gun immune to it.

Using the car analogy, it would be like pumping white gas for your Coleman stove into a GT500 Mustang and then complaining about lack of response and drivability issues. Someone who does that and reports it on a Mustang forum would be quickly schooled on their abuse.

Someone who reports the issue and declines to mention what ammo caused it is hiding something, whether they intend to or not. But quality of ammo is important - and why LEO and the military don't issue whatever they can get cheap. In the case of the Army they own the plant - Lake City comes to mind - and a management team operates it to strict government standards.

I chose to find out for myself, purchased a new polymer .380, and it happened to be one a lot of detractors were complaining about, specifically the manufacturer's requirement to shoot 200 rounds thru it before submitting it for Customer Service with a complaint. I didn't clean it, bought the cheapest steel cased .380 I could find on the shelf, and so far, I have 150 rounds thru it. I'm happy to report it goes bang every time, and the slide cycles ejecting the old case and loading a new one. I'm not surprised to find the slide does NOT lock back as it should on the last round. This firearm is specifically recommended to drop the slide loading new into the chamber after reloading, unlike some other polymer guns.

I then tested it with the carry load, brass cased self defense rounds, and the slide DOES lock back every time with them. The conclusion is that cheap ammo = unreliable performance. But according to some, I should have sent it back regardless because the gun isn't "perfect" and I should buy something with more "quality." Yet nobody can define either.

I conclude I'm just hearing the typical chest thumping bravado that usually signifies someone attempting to bolster their public image - after all, they never buy defective firearms and trust them implicitly right out of the box regardless of the demonstrated issues. I see that as being willing to accept risks that exist, by either being in denial or simply choosing to remain uninformed.

The worst part is maintaining their risk acceptance is good enough for every one else. I believe that recommendation was actually the bartenders choice and what did it get him?

Well, if it saves the life of just one bartender . . . I know, that's a bit much, but it is the reality. If you accept that a new gun will be 100% trouble free right out of the box, you accept the chance - however miniscule - of your gun jamming and getting shot. Your choice. I'm not immune, I have yet to clean that .380 but I do carry it - with much more expensive defensive loads.

Making the claim that any one pistol right out of the box "must" function flawlessly is your choice, but it certainly has been discussed that it can and will be a problem for somebody. It's your risk - but it's not a reliable assessment to suggest for everyone. Not hardly. You cannot and should not make that a guarantee for someone else, especially the new firearms consumer who has no experience and little to no knowledge of the shooting sports. They will take it at face value and they become the problem trying to force a manufacturer who never promised that kind of performance to fulfill it. All because "experts said." Frankly, they wouldn't know who is an expert, and that has been amply demonstrated here when one poster questions another. Experts disagree - which means the matter is hardly settled and remains an issue.

Nope, we aren't finished talking about it and may well never stop. All we are likely to do is discover who has decided not to listen as their mind is made up. Their risk, their choice.
 
The point about new cars needing repairs is not different than new guns. IE the post on a short barreled 1911 which got recalled the week after the poster bought it.

"But, they are supposed to work perfectly out of the box!" And yet repeatedly in posts here and on other forums, the problem is often found to be somebody firing the gun new out of the box with the cheapest available ammo. There seems to be no one gun immune to it.

Using the car analogy, it would be like pumping white gas for your Coleman stove into a GT500 Mustang and then complaining about lack of response and drivability issues. Someone who does that and reports it on a Mustang forum would be quickly schooled on their abuse.

Someone who reports the issue and declines to mention what ammo caused it is hiding something, whether they intend to or not. But quality of ammo is important - and why LEO and the military don't issue whatever they can get cheap. In the case of the Army they own the plant - Lake City comes to mind - and a management team operates it to strict government standards.

I chose to find out for myself, purchased a new polymer .380, and it happened to be one a lot of detractors were complaining about, specifically the manufacturer's requirement to shoot 200 rounds thru it before submitting it for Customer Service with a complaint. I didn't clean it, bought the cheapest steel cased .380 I could find on the shelf, and so far, I have 150 rounds thru it. I'm happy to report it goes bang every time, and the slide cycles ejecting the old case and loading a new one. I'm not surprised to find the slide does NOT lock back as it should on the last round. This firearm is specifically recommended to drop the slide loading new into the chamber after reloading, unlike some other polymer guns.

I then tested it with the carry load, brass cased self defense rounds, and the slide DOES lock back every time with them. The conclusion is that cheap ammo = unreliable performance. But according to some, I should have sent it back regardless because the gun isn't "perfect" and I should buy something with more "quality." Yet nobody can define either.

I conclude I'm just hearing the typical chest thumping bravado that usually signifies someone attempting to bolster their public image - after all, they never buy defective firearms and trust them implicitly right out of the box regardless of the demonstrated issues. I see that as being willing to accept risks that exist, by either being in denial or simply choosing to remain uninformed.

The worst part is maintaining their risk acceptance is good enough for every one else. I believe that recommendation was actually the bartenders choice and what did it get him?

Well, if it saves the life of just one bartender . . . I know, that's a bit much, but it is the reality. If you accept that a new gun will be 100% trouble free right out of the box, you accept the chance - however miniscule - of your gun jamming and getting shot. Your choice. I'm not immune, I have yet to clean that .380 but I do carry it - with much more expensive defensive loads.

Making the claim that any one pistol right out of the box "must" function flawlessly is your choice, but it certainly has been discussed that it can and will be a problem for somebody. It's your risk - but it's not a reliable assessment to suggest for everyone. Not hardly. You cannot and should not make that a guarantee for someone else, especially the new firearms consumer who has no experience and little to no knowledge of the shooting sports. They will take it at face value and they become the problem trying to force a manufacturer who never promised that kind of performance to fulfill it. All because "experts said." Frankly, they wouldn't know who is an expert, and that has been amply demonstrated here when one poster questions another. Experts disagree - which means the matter is hardly settled and remains an issue.

Nope, we aren't finished talking about it and may well never stop. All we are likely to do is discover who has decided not to listen as their mind is made up. Their risk, their choice.

Would you be so kind as to identify the " new polymer .380 " that you purchased and functioned so well ?

Thanks.
 
Well since this dog still has legs.

In response to comments like...

I personally put a box or two of FMJ and a mag or two of what I am going to carry. 500 rounds sounds excessive.

Does that 50 - 100 rounds test include shooting the gun with both hands, strong hand only, weak hand only and limp wristed?

Most semi-autos have designed lifespan of 50,000 rounds. They will usually run a lot longer than that with preventative maintenance such as replacing springs at regular intervals, proper lubing and oiling and replacing worn parts before they break or fail.

By most accounts the Hi-Point is a reliable design. It doesn't matter what it's lifespan is since it has a lifetime warranty and the company will either repair or replace it for free.

This type of comments do serve one very useful purpose. That is why used guns are most often a excellent buy.
 
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I personally put a box or two of FMJ and a mag or two of what I'm going to carry. If I get no FTEs or FTFs, I call it good. 500 rounds seems pretty excessive. I'm sure ammo companies would LOVE for everyone to shoot 500 or more specialty JHP rounds to consider it carryable.

Who said 500 "JHP" rounds? I don't think very many people shoot 500 of their chosen factory defensive JHP. I do think a lot of prudent people shoot 500 total rounds and 50-100 JHP (for semi autos of course).

I strongly suggest not shooting a mere "Mag or two" of defensive ammo. I have personally purchased a new reputable-manufacture firearm, put "a mag or two" of defensive ammo through it (following a 100+ FMJ), and the next time at the range suffered multiple failures with that defensive ammo...in the first mag alone. The gun wouldn't go 50 consecutive rounds of JHP without a failure to feed. It would get through 3-4 magazines (10 each) sometimes...but not more.

A couple mags is a poor test.
 
Picked up a Glock 22, 3ed gen, used at a pawn shop 2 days ago. Night sights (Trijicon), 3 factory 15 rounders and Glock box with cleaning kit. Perfect condition with no wear on the finish. $380 tax included. Yes .40 S&W.

Took it out for a impromptu test session. Using 185 grain truncated cone molly coated reloads. Didn't miss a beat and shot right on where the sights look.

I may shoot 50 rounds in Winchester T series and proclaim it good to go.

Dang those Glocks. They work every time.

Deaf
 
I was reading thoughts in a thread elsewhere on the "life and death" reliability of a particular gun and one comment kept coming up - the owners suffered stoppages that were well under the the 500 rounds recommended by professionals for a carry gun.

Of course that made the gun complete junk and they hated on it from then on. No mention of WHAT ammo they were using, either.

How many of you have fired 500 rounds thru your carry gun? Did that process iron out which ammo was more reliable for you?

Over the last 15 years on the net, I haven't read of any Brand that doesn't have a few guns with FTF or FTE issues when new. Every brand you could think of seems to be capable of it and the more expensive the more likely. Yet owners of the high priced guns shrug it off and wait for the brown trunk to return it. And others continue to (perhaps rightly) think they can jam in any round possible and should get 100% success every shot.

Is that your experience?

Nope. If I have that many functionality issues I will either return the weapon or take it to a gunsmith for further tuning. After about 50-100 rounds I get comfortable.
 
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