Owen Sparks
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Hold it right there.
No .223 carbine can match the 12 GA shotgun for close range incapacitation.
Do you have any need for a shotgun or is the carbine superior in your mind?
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Hold it right there.
No .223 carbine can match the 12 GA shotgun for close range incapacitation.
lemaymiami
Member
Here's some real world data to back up my assertion that nothing beats a 12 ga. for close quarters work.... We measured the pattern spread from our standard 18" barrel, improved cylinder shotguns (both Remington and Mossberg) and found that most dispersed 00Buck at one inch per meter from the muzzle... That means that at 7 meters you got a 7" pattern (at 21 to 23 feet all nine pellets fit exactly into a 7" circle) - that's an incredible killing load in a chest cavity or center torso hit. At 20 meters it's still possible to put almost the entire nine pellet load into a grown man's torso - once again a terrible killing load.... All of this with only a single standard 2 3/4" round.
Add the ability to skip shoot or use ricochet shooting to reach out and take someone's feet when they're completely behind a vehicle and you begin to see why I make these assertions... One of the things that work against the popularity of shotguns is all the mis-information that most take for granted that they've seen in the movies and other popular entertainments about shotguns and their use when it counts.... but I won't go into all of that stuff.
Lastly I can honestly say that I've pointed handguns at many, many people on the street on the job. Hardcore types were rarely impressed by a handgun unless they were downed and bleeding... I can think of very, very few that ever ignored a shotgun pointed at them at close range. My very first armed robbery arrest (all those years ago) had me pointing a shotgun at very close quarters at three armed individuals in a vehicle. The lead passenger was well on his way to bailing on me when he saw his future.... A few minutes later we actually had to have someone pry his fingers off of the car door frame as he stood there with his his eyes closed tight... I never forgot that incident and it was confirmed over and over again (sometimes that movie stuff works in your favor...).
Add the ability to skip shoot or use ricochet shooting to reach out and take someone's feet when they're completely behind a vehicle and you begin to see why I make these assertions... One of the things that work against the popularity of shotguns is all the mis-information that most take for granted that they've seen in the movies and other popular entertainments about shotguns and their use when it counts.... but I won't go into all of that stuff.
Lastly I can honestly say that I've pointed handguns at many, many people on the street on the job. Hardcore types were rarely impressed by a handgun unless they were downed and bleeding... I can think of very, very few that ever ignored a shotgun pointed at them at close range. My very first armed robbery arrest (all those years ago) had me pointing a shotgun at very close quarters at three armed individuals in a vehicle. The lead passenger was well on his way to bailing on me when he saw his future.... A few minutes later we actually had to have someone pry his fingers off of the car door frame as he stood there with his his eyes closed tight... I never forgot that incident and it was confirmed over and over again (sometimes that movie stuff works in your favor...).
sidheshooter
Member
Source? I'm not arguing, but I'd like more info.
There are documented instances of people being shot with slugs and 00 buck at close range and still fighting. I'm pretty sure that I can put three rounds of .223 on a target with an AR in the same time I can put one round out of an 870, and I think I'd rather have the three rounds (at well over twice the velocity), given that the effects of gunfire are cumulative.
But I don't know, and I'm no expert. So I really am asking.
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1911 guy
Member
I call a tie. I have used and currently own both. If I were to pick one gun to do it all, shotgun wins hands down. If I am talking strictly HD, I'd opt for the carbine. However, if someone isn't warm and fuzzy with the carbine or has only enough cash on hand to buy one or the other, I'd have absolutely no reservation about recommending the shotgun.
armoredman
Member
I requalified with the standard issue Remington 870 yesterday morning. At 20 yards the pattern from Federal 00 Buck completely covered the B-27 target chest area.
Personally, I'd rather have my rifle, but that's just me. My carbine IS a bit shorter than my shotgun, but in my defense, I ordered it that way not knowing how long that extension really was.
I do like it for hunting, and yes, the magazine is legal. As for carbines, I would think my SA vz-58 would do the trick handily, either in 5.56mm or 7.62x39mm.
By the way, both can be used as hunting rifles, too, and will be soon.
Personally, I'd rather have my rifle, but that's just me. My carbine IS a bit shorter than my shotgun, but in my defense, I ordered it that way not knowing how long that extension really was.
I do like it for hunting, and yes, the magazine is legal. As for carbines, I would think my SA vz-58 would do the trick handily, either in 5.56mm or 7.62x39mm.
By the way, both can be used as hunting rifles, too, and will be soon.
Sheepdog1968
Member
My 30-30 lever action is the last firearms I would get rif of because of my irrational love for it. The one that would be second on the list would be my pump action shotgun. The lever action isn't loaded in the home but the pump is in essentially cruiser mode.
rbernie
Contributing Member
Shotguns, in general have several advantages - designed for a fast first shot, provide multiple simultaneous projectiles on target, and have a relatively simple manual of arms. They are also much easier to tote around and (unless equipped with a sling) IMO are far less likely to foul on stuff during dynamic movement.
Shotguns have several disadvantages for military use; they use relatively heavy and fragile ammo, manual repeaters have a relatively slow rate of fire, and they certainly have a relatively short effective range. Within my lifetime, I have observed the LE community mirroring the .mil line of thought WRT the issues with scatterguns.
Having said that, if you look at the issues you will likely conclude that they have little to do with much of what passes for lawful SD for civilians while the advantages largely remain. There is nothing wrong with choosing a carbine for SD, but that doesn't mean that conversely the shotgun has no value.
For inside/around my house - I still favor the shotgun.
Shotguns have several disadvantages for military use; they use relatively heavy and fragile ammo, manual repeaters have a relatively slow rate of fire, and they certainly have a relatively short effective range. Within my lifetime, I have observed the LE community mirroring the .mil line of thought WRT the issues with scatterguns.
Having said that, if you look at the issues you will likely conclude that they have little to do with much of what passes for lawful SD for civilians while the advantages largely remain. There is nothing wrong with choosing a carbine for SD, but that doesn't mean that conversely the shotgun has no value.
For inside/around my house - I still favor the shotgun.
I will never get rid of my shotgun, but my service time means that I can manipulate and maintain an AR in my sleep; hence it's best for me. During the occasional 3-gun match my shotgun handling (especially reloads) make me look klutzy and awkward. The fact that they have to be reloaded every few seconds is a hindrance to me that's easily avoided with the carbine.
HOWARD J
Member
I have 4 shotguns
About 36 other guns--sometimes less as the kids & grandkids help themselves.
We are beside the big city & the breakins & home invasions are increasing.
For home defense I put away my Glock & now keep a Mini 30 with 20 rd mag for protection
About 36 other guns--sometimes less as the kids & grandkids help themselves.
We are beside the big city & the breakins & home invasions are increasing.
For home defense I put away my Glock & now keep a Mini 30 with 20 rd mag for protection
CoRoMo
Member
I don't understand why the title divides the need for a shotgun with the opinion of the carbine. Flawed.
Absolutely.
In certain ways, absolutely.
Carbines are largely replacing both shotguns and sub guns. There is a reason for that. As one of the SWAT guys I train with once said "I only use a shotgun to breach doors or shoot dogs." This thread seems to be about "social" use, thus, I will forgo any discussions of obvious points that shotguns are better for wing shooting and the like.
I own, train with, use, and like both shotguns and carbines. For HD either it typically going to be up to the task if the user is.
When it comes to the type of use this thread is about I see shotguns only having two real advantages. 1) price and 2) terminal ballistics.
A carbine offers a number of advantages. Some of which have been mentioned above and some of which have not. The carbine is a smaller lighter weapon. This means it is easier for most people to use. I know a number of the 105-120 lbs girls I've dated had a much easier time effectively using any of my semi carbines versus any of my 12 gauge shotguns. This seems to have been a result of both size/weight as well as recoil.
A carbine has much less recoil. This makes it easier to use in a number of ways. One important way is follow up shots. If one has good trigger control they can put a number of rounds on target very quickly. Get a shot timer and fire 2-4 shots at target one, transition to target 2, repeat and transition to target 3. Do the same with a shotgun with slugs or buck, but only firing one round. This is also only accounting for semis. If you have a select fire weapon firing short bursts makes for a potent weapon. I know based on my time with the MP5, I would take that every time over a shotgun.
Ammo capacity: Carbines simply hold a lot more ammo than a shotgun. While I believe having more ammo than less is simply better (within reason), another issue here is that the limited capacity of a shotgun makes it more difficult to use. Proficient use of shotgun is largely about ammo management. Getting good at that takes a fair amount of training and practice. This issue is greatly amplified when comparing shorty carbines to shorty shotguns.
Over penetration and penetration of barriers: If we are talking rifle rounds, a properly selected rifle bullet poses less of a threat in these respects than a slug or even buckshot.
Precise shots: An advantage of a shotgun is that it puts 9(+) pellets out with one squeeze of the trigger. This also means one better know the pattern of their gun and be able to account for it. I have areas in my house that are large enough for the pattern of some of my cylinder bore shotguns to open enough that there would be stray pellets. Other guns with chokes and barrel work offer tighter patterns.
Suppression: It is much easier to effective suppress a carbine than a shotgun. Shotgun suppressors that are effective tend to be rather larger and heavy. Whereas a suppressor like an OPS INC M4M is effective and only adds 4" to the OAL. Suppressors offer a number of advantages for the type of use we are discussing.
Defeating Armor: A carbine in a rifle caliber is better able to defeat body armor. This may or may not matter in a given situation but nevertheless it is an advantage held by carbines.
The shotgun will win hands down on price every time, and I truly believe that is a large part of why they are as popular as they are for HD. If an MP5 cost $300 instead of $18K I bet you'd see a whole lot them for that role. Same idea for ARs and the like. If money is tight a shotgun is probably the way to go.
The terminal ballistics of shotguns is impressive. However, I do not find the terminal ballistics of carbines to be wanting. Given proper ammo selection even the 5.56 is formidable. If one wants they very same size guns are often available in 6.8 or the like.
These are just my random thoughts on the matter. I'd be okay having either, however, over the last few years I have really gravitated towards a carbine and my first choice. Beyond that, the fact that it is much easier for others to use than shotgun firing slug/buck makes it a better choice for my situation.
I'd argue that the manual of arms on many shotguns is more complicated than on a carbine. This is particularly true when you include managing different types of ammo, slugs and buck. Some people deal with that by using only one type of ammo, which negates versatility of the shotgun. Also, when they chose slugs only, I really wonder why they don't just use a carbine. In my experience it takes more work to become truly proficient in using a shotgun than a carbine. It also takes more practice to stay proficient.
I'm not sure how a heavier and longer shotgun is "much easier" to tote around. If we include NFA items a 10.5" carbine, which is easy to haul around, is still really useful and sacrifices no ammo capacity. Most SBS guns that small give you a very low capacity. Furthermore, a 5 lbs carbine is still very easy for just about anyone to shoot. When you have a very short and thus light 12 gauge with defensive ammo that is not the case.
I own, train with, use, and like both shotguns and carbines. For HD either it typically going to be up to the task if the user is.
When it comes to the type of use this thread is about I see shotguns only having two real advantages. 1) price and 2) terminal ballistics.
A carbine offers a number of advantages. Some of which have been mentioned above and some of which have not. The carbine is a smaller lighter weapon. This means it is easier for most people to use. I know a number of the 105-120 lbs girls I've dated had a much easier time effectively using any of my semi carbines versus any of my 12 gauge shotguns. This seems to have been a result of both size/weight as well as recoil.
A carbine has much less recoil. This makes it easier to use in a number of ways. One important way is follow up shots. If one has good trigger control they can put a number of rounds on target very quickly. Get a shot timer and fire 2-4 shots at target one, transition to target 2, repeat and transition to target 3. Do the same with a shotgun with slugs or buck, but only firing one round. This is also only accounting for semis. If you have a select fire weapon firing short bursts makes for a potent weapon. I know based on my time with the MP5, I would take that every time over a shotgun.
Ammo capacity: Carbines simply hold a lot more ammo than a shotgun. While I believe having more ammo than less is simply better (within reason), another issue here is that the limited capacity of a shotgun makes it more difficult to use. Proficient use of shotgun is largely about ammo management. Getting good at that takes a fair amount of training and practice. This issue is greatly amplified when comparing shorty carbines to shorty shotguns.
Over penetration and penetration of barriers: If we are talking rifle rounds, a properly selected rifle bullet poses less of a threat in these respects than a slug or even buckshot.
Precise shots: An advantage of a shotgun is that it puts 9(+) pellets out with one squeeze of the trigger. This also means one better know the pattern of their gun and be able to account for it. I have areas in my house that are large enough for the pattern of some of my cylinder bore shotguns to open enough that there would be stray pellets. Other guns with chokes and barrel work offer tighter patterns.
Suppression: It is much easier to effective suppress a carbine than a shotgun. Shotgun suppressors that are effective tend to be rather larger and heavy. Whereas a suppressor like an OPS INC M4M is effective and only adds 4" to the OAL. Suppressors offer a number of advantages for the type of use we are discussing.
Defeating Armor: A carbine in a rifle caliber is better able to defeat body armor. This may or may not matter in a given situation but nevertheless it is an advantage held by carbines.
The shotgun will win hands down on price every time, and I truly believe that is a large part of why they are as popular as they are for HD. If an MP5 cost $300 instead of $18K I bet you'd see a whole lot them for that role. Same idea for ARs and the like. If money is tight a shotgun is probably the way to go.
The terminal ballistics of shotguns is impressive. However, I do not find the terminal ballistics of carbines to be wanting. Given proper ammo selection even the 5.56 is formidable. If one wants they very same size guns are often available in 6.8 or the like.
These are just my random thoughts on the matter. I'd be okay having either, however, over the last few years I have really gravitated towards a carbine and my first choice. Beyond that, the fact that it is much easier for others to use than shotgun firing slug/buck makes it a better choice for my situation.
I'd argue that the manual of arms on many shotguns is more complicated than on a carbine. This is particularly true when you include managing different types of ammo, slugs and buck. Some people deal with that by using only one type of ammo, which negates versatility of the shotgun. Also, when they chose slugs only, I really wonder why they don't just use a carbine. In my experience it takes more work to become truly proficient in using a shotgun than a carbine. It also takes more practice to stay proficient.
I'm not sure how a heavier and longer shotgun is "much easier" to tote around. If we include NFA items a 10.5" carbine, which is easy to haul around, is still really useful and sacrifices no ammo capacity. Most SBS guns that small give you a very low capacity. Furthermore, a 5 lbs carbine is still very easy for just about anyone to shoot. When you have a very short and thus light 12 gauge with defensive ammo that is not the case.
Owen Sparks
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A close range buckshot blast is devastating, here is what various loads can be expected to do at indoor distances. Check out the wounding potential of #1 buck:
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109958
The .223 round is not even legal for deer hunting in many places because it is considered inadequate for quick humane kills.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109958
The .223 round is not even legal for deer hunting in many places because it is considered inadequate for quick humane kills.
rbernie
Contributing Member
I don't disagree with the statements, but they rely upon a premise that the argument was for flexibility. My argument was for SD simplicity; six rounds of buckshot in a light, easy to point package suitable for repelling boarders. When you start making it complicated by expanding its role to more ranged work, then I agree that the carbine is a better choice.
Well, you started the statement under the premise that the shotgun is longer and heavier, which need not necessarily be the case. For example, I have several 18.5" barreled shotguns that are not much more than an inch longer than my 16" carbines (mit Phantom or similar flash hider), and that weigh no more than a standard M4 profile barreled carbine. You can get a carbine to be modestly shorter and certainly to weigh less, but that's something that you have to actively work at to achieve. Last I checked, the average BushDPMSRock M4-type AR15 carbine (sans optic) weighed in at about as much as a 26" barreled Benelli M2. My minimalistic Franchi 48AL 12ga is just over six pounds, and inside of 35 yards it's death to any thing that it points at.
The shotgun can be carried single-handed or at port arms more easily by virtue of its minimalistic design. The pistol-grip and magwell of a flattop AR15 with optic, for example, conspire with the balance point of the carbine make it much more difficult to carry one-handed than the average shotgun. That may or may not mean much to folk for their needs, but it is a benefit under specific circumstance.
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DNS
Member
Folks here must be pretty good shots or are expecting the BG to stop and pose. A moving target is where the shotgun pattern shines.
Like my AR but its not for up close use. My 870 and 870 clone are my go to.
Like my AR but its not for up close use. My 870 and 870 clone are my go to.
LeonCarr
Member
IMO/IME inside a house the shotgun is the king.
Heavier payload with each pull of the trigger, mutiple instantaneous hits creating more shock, trauma, and leak points resulting in more rapid incapacitation which decreases the chances of your adversary shooting back at you, easier to shoot a moving target due to the pattern and spread of the pellets, and no box magazine (Unless you are shooting a Saiga-12 or something like that) to catch on furniture or other household items in the process of moving through the house.
At household distances I can put 30 holes in a target faster with a pump or semiauto shotgun than a trained operator can with a full auto rifle or submachine gun and do it more accurately.
Yes, outside the house gimme a rifle. Inside the house the 870P is my first choice.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
Heavier payload with each pull of the trigger, mutiple instantaneous hits creating more shock, trauma, and leak points resulting in more rapid incapacitation which decreases the chances of your adversary shooting back at you, easier to shoot a moving target due to the pattern and spread of the pellets, and no box magazine (Unless you are shooting a Saiga-12 or something like that) to catch on furniture or other household items in the process of moving through the house.
At household distances I can put 30 holes in a target faster with a pump or semiauto shotgun than a trained operator can with a full auto rifle or submachine gun and do it more accurately.
Yes, outside the house gimme a rifle. Inside the house the 870P is my first choice.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
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Owen Sparks
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Again, different tools for different jobs. A shotgun is best for indoor HOME defense. A rifle is the best tool if you have to go outside or are limited to only one weapon.
For military use a carbine is best all-around compromise for the average soldier. It has the ability to reach out several hundred yards yet is short and handy enough to be used in close quarter house clearing. A scoped sniper rifle or compact handgun might be a better choice for some situations but the carbine can overlap well enough to handle most jobs.
The limitation on a soldier is that his equipment has to remain light so that he can be mobile in the field. We as civilians are not in the field or in a war zone. We are at home and can afford to specialize. The weight of the shotgun and the amount of ammo you can carry is not a factor when defending a position. You are not going to be carrying the shotgun much at home anyway, you just take cover at some pre-determined choke point and blast whatever comes up the stairs, through the door or down the hall. If you MUST go out for whatever reason that is when you should grab the AR. Evacuating a natural disaster or fire is about the only time we as civilians really need to bug out. Even major inner city riots never last more than a few days and you would probably be better served by a shotgun if you had to hunker down until order was restored.
For military use a carbine is best all-around compromise for the average soldier. It has the ability to reach out several hundred yards yet is short and handy enough to be used in close quarter house clearing. A scoped sniper rifle or compact handgun might be a better choice for some situations but the carbine can overlap well enough to handle most jobs.
The limitation on a soldier is that his equipment has to remain light so that he can be mobile in the field. We as civilians are not in the field or in a war zone. We are at home and can afford to specialize. The weight of the shotgun and the amount of ammo you can carry is not a factor when defending a position. You are not going to be carrying the shotgun much at home anyway, you just take cover at some pre-determined choke point and blast whatever comes up the stairs, through the door or down the hall. If you MUST go out for whatever reason that is when you should grab the AR. Evacuating a natural disaster or fire is about the only time we as civilians really need to bug out. Even major inner city riots never last more than a few days and you would probably be better served by a shotgun if you had to hunker down until order was restored.
If I am on my hind legs, I still like my 870P. My long arms make pumping while prone a bit problematic, and by prone, I don't mean a carefully-assumed prone, but a prone achieved by real-world diving onto the ground. (Not that I like hitting the dirt; my bad right knee makes it problematic to get back onto my feet in a hurry.) The last time I very nearly dropped the hammer on a human being, there were two felons, hiding under a house, who had just been involved in a nearby shoot-out with narcotics officers. As I was sprawled in that cold mud, I was very conscious that I had one devastating first shot available, but the second shot would not be so quick or easy. With no cover, I mentally prepared myself to fire and then immediately roll to one side while pumping.
To be clear, the above paragraph refers to pump guns. The only autoloading shotguns my chief allows are M1/M2 Benellis, and I had already tried and rejected that platform, and returned to the 870P.
To make a long story short, I like carbines for some applications, and shotguns for others. Until I am wealthy, and can hire a gunbearer, I have to select the best perceived choice for the given situation. Well, actually, until I retire, I will normally default to the shotgun, because that is the only long gun with which I am currently "qual'ed" as a duty weapon; I am expected to use approved weapons on or off the clock. My employer does have a patrol carbine program, but the rifle qual is timed, and involves running, going prone, and quickly getting up and running more, which works OK for the young bucks, and not so well for aging cripples with bad knees.
When I retire, my Mini-14 carbines will likely become my default long guns, but I will not decommision my 870P. Within its useful range, that charge of pellets causes tremendous damage, and familiarity is very comforting.
About going prone: My new plan for going prone with a pump shotgun is to transition to pistol.
To be clear, the above paragraph refers to pump guns. The only autoloading shotguns my chief allows are M1/M2 Benellis, and I had already tried and rejected that platform, and returned to the 870P.
To make a long story short, I like carbines for some applications, and shotguns for others. Until I am wealthy, and can hire a gunbearer, I have to select the best perceived choice for the given situation. Well, actually, until I retire, I will normally default to the shotgun, because that is the only long gun with which I am currently "qual'ed" as a duty weapon; I am expected to use approved weapons on or off the clock. My employer does have a patrol carbine program, but the rifle qual is timed, and involves running, going prone, and quickly getting up and running more, which works OK for the young bucks, and not so well for aging cripples with bad knees.
When I retire, my Mini-14 carbines will likely become my default long guns, but I will not decommision my 870P. Within its useful range, that charge of pellets causes tremendous damage, and familiarity is very comforting.
About going prone: My new plan for going prone with a pump shotgun is to transition to pistol.
horsemen61
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I use both I don't think the carbine is making the shotgun obsolete though.
Sheepdog1968
Member
How else can you go clay shooting? It's the funniest thing I can think of.
Specs
Member
As others have said, the shotgun has some disadvantages, but for in the house close range it trumps my mini 14. I use my 870 HD 12 ga. as a camp gun (not hunting camp) for last ditch bear defense. I keep it stoked with slugs for that purpose, and at home I keep 00 buck for sd. I will probably pick up a 26 in. barrel and then it will work for birds as well. The 18 in. barrel with slugs will also work well on whitetail. All in all, the 870 is very versatile for most uses, but my mini 14 is the go to if there are problems outside. I live in the boonies, so it's good to be ready for anything.
There are 2 pump shotguns (Mossberg 500ATP 12 g 18.5" 5+1, H&R Pardner Pump 12 g 5+1 28")and 2 carbines (a 5.45 and a 7.62 AK) in the house. The 7.62 AK is mine.
I have a lot of rounds through both the shotguns, and my AK. I think riot gun vs carbine is an extremely interesting discussion, as some long nights arguing between my twin brother and I will attest. He is totally a carbine guy, I like both, but prefer the carbine.
I live in the country, in a nice simple ranch house, so penetration is not a huge issue. Proper 7.62 and 5.45 ammo are as good or better than 00BK anyway. So Penetration, nonfactor.
I got my AK for only $350 (long story) but in normal circumstances, the, to me, number 1 difference between the carbine and the shotgun is actually cost. $200 can buy you a 100% functioning HD shotgun. That alone is a very big deal.
More to my personal tastes, my AK has a lot more rounds and is quicker to reload than my Dad's Mossberg. I'll be comparing those 2 guns, because I have the most rounds through them. I'd say 90% of the time, the 30 rounds plus a few mags vs 5 rounds plus 5 in a saddle will not make a big difference. But what if it ever does? Advantage AK.
The AK is easier to use. Rack, and pull the trigger. I have seen numerous relatives messing up pump guns. I've never short stroked or even forgotten to pump a shotgun myself, but I have seen it happen. I have used a pump shotgun full of dead bugs and rotten slime. I have used an AK with zero lube, and full of metal shavings and stuff. Both were 100% reliable. AKs and pump shotguns are like the most reliable guns in the world. Kudos both.
The AK can be used 1 handed, or with an item/phone/whatever in my support hand which is still on the gun. I am not talking about flashlights-those are on the gun. The pump shotgun is a 100% 2 handed weapon. Period. Advantage AK.
The AK has range that the shotgun doesn't. I live in a very open area where threats outside at 40-200 yards are entirely possible. Shotgun is not much good then, out to slugs at 100 yards, it's still less accurate, much less rounds and rate of fire.
Both guns are super fun to shoot.
The shotgun is a much better multi-role/ hunting gun.
The shotgun is less threatening to protectionist liberals.
The shotgun is way cheaper.
The shotgun can be used in some situations the carbine can't.
I am not a gun snob. A lot of people can't afford a carbine. And I am talking a $450-600 AK, let alone a $700-1200 AR. Shotguns are awesome. So are carbines.
To me, a big reason I opt for the carbine is the possibility of multiple or armed "bad guys". If they have a gun, and my first shot with the shotgun misses, or more likely, hits an arm/armor/whatever and doesn't stop them, they have more time to fire back before I can shoot again. And I have emptied 6 rounds of 00 from a 12 gauge into a pizza box at 7 yards in 3.5 seconds. With the carbine, I can shoot. If they don't go down, I can keep shooting. My brother coins this, "overwhelming" an armed threat. It's an interesting thought. If they have a gun, you can overwhelm them with an AR/AK in a way you can't with a handgun or shotgun. You can fire it faster, more accurately, for much longer than any other gun. Bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang... and the threat WILL be stopped. Boom, ker-chunck, boom, ker-chuck... Will the 12 gauge probably be good enough? Almost certainly. But what if it isn't?
Different thought that some of you don't like, in any sort of Poo-HTF/WROL/what the heck there's a mob of armed people whoever they are on my street/foreign invasion/anything, involving ranges past room to room, carbine is just un challenged. "Fear no evil". I simply cannot bring more gun.
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Don't get me wrong, an inexpensive pump is a great HD gun, on a budget or not, but with a carbine, I have as much gun as I can have for any situation, and I like that feeling.
I have a lot of rounds through both the shotguns, and my AK. I think riot gun vs carbine is an extremely interesting discussion, as some long nights arguing between my twin brother and I will attest. He is totally a carbine guy, I like both, but prefer the carbine.
I live in the country, in a nice simple ranch house, so penetration is not a huge issue. Proper 7.62 and 5.45 ammo are as good or better than 00BK anyway. So Penetration, nonfactor.
I got my AK for only $350 (long story) but in normal circumstances, the, to me, number 1 difference between the carbine and the shotgun is actually cost. $200 can buy you a 100% functioning HD shotgun. That alone is a very big deal.
More to my personal tastes, my AK has a lot more rounds and is quicker to reload than my Dad's Mossberg. I'll be comparing those 2 guns, because I have the most rounds through them. I'd say 90% of the time, the 30 rounds plus a few mags vs 5 rounds plus 5 in a saddle will not make a big difference. But what if it ever does? Advantage AK.
The AK is easier to use. Rack, and pull the trigger. I have seen numerous relatives messing up pump guns. I've never short stroked or even forgotten to pump a shotgun myself, but I have seen it happen. I have used a pump shotgun full of dead bugs and rotten slime. I have used an AK with zero lube, and full of metal shavings and stuff. Both were 100% reliable. AKs and pump shotguns are like the most reliable guns in the world. Kudos both.
The AK can be used 1 handed, or with an item/phone/whatever in my support hand which is still on the gun. I am not talking about flashlights-those are on the gun. The pump shotgun is a 100% 2 handed weapon. Period. Advantage AK.
The AK has range that the shotgun doesn't. I live in a very open area where threats outside at 40-200 yards are entirely possible. Shotgun is not much good then, out to slugs at 100 yards, it's still less accurate, much less rounds and rate of fire.
Both guns are super fun to shoot.
The shotgun is a much better multi-role/ hunting gun.
The shotgun is less threatening to protectionist liberals.
The shotgun is way cheaper.
The shotgun can be used in some situations the carbine can't.
I am not a gun snob. A lot of people can't afford a carbine. And I am talking a $450-600 AK, let alone a $700-1200 AR. Shotguns are awesome. So are carbines.
To me, a big reason I opt for the carbine is the possibility of multiple or armed "bad guys". If they have a gun, and my first shot with the shotgun misses, or more likely, hits an arm/armor/whatever and doesn't stop them, they have more time to fire back before I can shoot again. And I have emptied 6 rounds of 00 from a 12 gauge into a pizza box at 7 yards in 3.5 seconds. With the carbine, I can shoot. If they don't go down, I can keep shooting. My brother coins this, "overwhelming" an armed threat. It's an interesting thought. If they have a gun, you can overwhelm them with an AR/AK in a way you can't with a handgun or shotgun. You can fire it faster, more accurately, for much longer than any other gun. Bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang... and the threat WILL be stopped. Boom, ker-chunck, boom, ker-chuck... Will the 12 gauge probably be good enough? Almost certainly. But what if it isn't?
Different thought that some of you don't like, in any sort of Poo-HTF/WROL/what the heck there's a mob of armed people whoever they are on my street/foreign invasion/anything, involving ranges past room to room, carbine is just un challenged. "Fear no evil". I simply cannot bring more gun.
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Don't get me wrong, an inexpensive pump is a great HD gun, on a budget or not, but with a carbine, I have as much gun as I can have for any situation, and I like that feeling.
Hunterdad
Member
Everyone is stating about how the carbine holds more rounds. My HD shotgun is a Stoeger 2000 Defense with a +2 ext. Thats 7 rounds at my disposal. Using 00 Buck, I'm putting 63 projectiles down range. That's double a carbine. I would bet I can get off my 7 rounds faster than anyone could get off their 30 rounds out of a carbine.
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