Do You Think I Handled This Correctly?

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

Hello guys!

I posted a status on Facebook today because I found a picture I took in my LGS that stated:

"Why Do I Carry A Gun?"
"Because you're not QUALIFIED to carry one. You haven't the skill, the judgement, the sense of responsibility, nor the courage to carry one!"

In said status, I quoted the above statement, and erred on the side of bad and added:

"And I believe this is true for those who are anti-gun."

Well one of my friends that I've known for a bit, but never known his stance on firearms comments:

No they are anti- gun because of the sheer facts

To which I replied:

Facts? Guns don't kill people. PEOPLE kill people. A gun WILL NOT go off on it's own. But me saying I believe this is true for those who are anti-gun, what I am saying is that they don't meet the qualifications in the quotation marks.

You take away guns, the bad guys are still going to find a way to get a hold of them, and there are a lot of things you can use to kill somebody that isn't a firearm.

He shot back with:

Gun Deaths - International Comparisons

Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):

Homicide Suicide Other (inc Accident)

USA (2001) 3.98 5.92 0.36

Italy (1997) 0.81 1.1 0.07

Switzerland (1998) 0.50 5.8 0.10

Canada (2002) 0.4 2.0 0.04

Finland (2003) 0.35 4.45 0.10

Australia (2001) 0.24 1.34 0.10

France (2001) 0.21 3.4 0.49

England/Wales (2002) 0.15 0.2 0.03

Scotland (2002) 0.06 0.2 0.02

Japan (2002) 0.02 0.04 0

Facts

http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm weird copy and paste here is the site.

Gun Facts
www.gun-control-network.org
Behind all the statistics are the actual incidents that result in the suffering of innocent people and animals. These lists reveal the consequence of the continued misuse of firearms.

I replied back stating:

All crimes committed by PEOPLE. Guns are merely a tool. Guns CAN NOT kill people of their own accord. PEOPLE are the problem. Not firearms.

He replies:

Why do you buy a gun?

I answer his question with:

Why do I buy a gun? Recreation is my primary use for my firearms. All eight of them. Secondary function is home/self-defense.

He comes back with:

Home/self defense. Which means intent to kill if provoked. Without the gun you would probably use a bat or knife usually not fatal. So that being said guns are bought to kill things even deer (recreational use). That being said guns kill.

I returned his argument with:

No, actually it doesn't. Home/self-defense means to protect mine and my own. I don't intend to kill anyone. I don't WANT to kill anyone. But if it comes down to it, and someone is in MY house trying to kill ME or MY family, they'll find themselves at the business end of one of my pistols, or my shotgun. I'm not going to shoot anyone trying to take my television. Won't shoot them if they try to take my car. But the second that the life of one of my family members, on my own is threatened, I will let their God sort them out in the end.

Guns were made so MANKIND could kill. Yes. That is what their original purpose was for. They are merely a tool to aid in that intent. You can still kill a deer, or a human if you're that far mentally diminished, with a bow, a knife, a spear, a pencil... Household chemicals, wrongfully cooked food. All merely methods of making killing easier. But not one of these things can kill on it's own, without the intervention human presence.

To which he replies:

From what you just said you proved my previous statement.

And I answer:

You will actually find yourself wrong. I proved no one else's but my justifications on the subject. You have this crazy notion that guns kill. No. People kill. Guns are merely just a tool.

He comes back with:

Really you can't fall onto a knife or a pencil and die? There is also no possible your cat knocks off a bottle of bleach thats on the counter and it breaks open and your baby crawls through it and actually drinks it? No possible way a gun goes off in the glove box in the car because you hit a bump too hard or it got the bullet to hot and it goes off?

Btw the facts I showed you earlier were compared to countries that had laws against guns

To which I answer (primer information may not be fully correct. Read this somewhere, and it's all that came to mind, google-fu was not among this):

The likelihood of a pencil, or a knife standing on end and you fall on it is nil. Let me rephrase that, without intervention of anything LIVING will any of these things harm/kill you. Firearms today are designed to completely ELIMINATE a bump setting them off. Even dropping them on MOST models made today. My Glock has three safeties, but only one of them is directly linked to human manipulation. The trigger-bar safety. Without pulling the trigger, the Glock pistols WILL NOT go off. Most of the firearms today are the same way. There are some older designs out there that have the POSSIBILITY of doing so, but the forces to cause this would have to be pretty extreme. The standard primer will only set off the round when there is ~12 p.s.i. of pressure applied in a split second. There isn't much chance of anything but a released firing-pin/striker/hammer to set it off. And no, you need some extreme temperatures to cook off a round. Temperatures you wouldn't find naturally, or inside a hot car ANYWHERE in the world.

I know what those statistics were for, I see them everyday.

He comes back with this statement:

There are faulty guns out there you can search it and find quite a bit of gun mishaps with premature discharge.

Now mind you I am for guns, but unlike you I see why people want to get rid of them. The reason I'm arguing with you is because I dislike people like you who are completely closed minded when people try to take away your toys.

I feed him some information in my response:

All the nature of HUMAN interference. If a part isn't made to specs, it's because a HUMAN didn't input information into the computer right. Or if they're doing it by hand, they took away TOO MUCH material. Accidental discharges and Negligent Discharges, for which we'll refer to AD's and ND's for this topic, are two different things, though they can be misinterpreted. AD's are a manufacturing defect. Caused by parts out of spec, improper materials, or let's face it, even a quirk in the machine. Cars do it to. ND's are the sole product of human interaction. Or, in the rare instance, animal interaction, as there's been a few cases last year where a dog shot it's owner, simply because the owner didn't secure the firearm the proper way, and didn't engage the safety.

About 99.1% of the discharges that occur unintended are ND's, caused because of improper gun-handling skills and procedures. You must always treat a firearm as if it were loaded. And there's a statement used by the gun-folks, that states "There is no such thing as an unloaded gun." Proper way to handle a firearm:

Take firearm, point in a safe direction.
If it has a detachable magazine, take it out/off the gun.
Keep firearm pointed in safe direction.
Manipulate the action of the firearm (Bolt, slide, etc.) to make sure there is no round chambered, and to clear rounds if necessary (this is depending on the design of said firearm).
Check chamber, visually and physically, sticking your pinky in the chamber. If you feel no round chambered, your firearm is safe to handle, but one should NEVER cover anything with the firearm's muzzle that one does not wish to destroy.

I am far from closed-minded. I believe in my rights. I know firearms are dangerous tools, ones to be taken seriously. I'm in full knowledge what they are capable of in the HANDS of an individual.

He hasn't responded after this comment, but another friend of mine chimed in, and though some comments were not HighRoad material, he did defend the right to bear arms.

Do you guys think I handled this correctly, for the sake of nothing but a good, heated debate?

 

[Fred_G]

Why do you choose to argue with someone you will not, can not really have a conversation with.

"Home/self defense. Which means intent to kill if provoked. Without the gun you would probably use a bat or knife usually not fatal. So that being said guns are bought to kill things even deer (recreational use). That being said guns kill."

Don't accept the premise here. Being provoked is a whole lot different from someone willingly breaking into a home that is occupied. What is the person who breaks in going to do? Spread good cheer?

 

[SouthernBoy]

Looks like you kept a cool head judging from your postings. Never works for us to get into a pissing contest with anti's which is what they want to happen, anyway. Emotion rules their arguments, not facts and common sense.

 

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

Why do you choose to argue with someone you will not, can not really have a conversation with.

He's a friend I went both to High School and Trade School with. In my opinion, it was a conversation, but to each his own.

Don't accept the premise here. Being provoked is a whole lot different from someone willingly breaking into a home that is occupied. What is the person who breaks in going to do? Spread good cheer?

That's what I'm basically saying. The likelihood of bringing good cheer is non-existent.

Looks like you kept a cool head judging from your postings. Never works for us to get into a pissing contest with anti's which is what they want to happen, anyway. Emotion rules their arguments, not facts and common sense.

Well, as he said, he was for guns, but could see and accept the anti-argument. I'm thinking he's on the fence. Hard to say.

 

[musicman10_1]

Opinions man - everyone is allowed to hold whatever beliefs they choose to hold. It is really hard to change someone's beliefs.

 

[Tommygunn]

"Because you're not QUALIFIED to carry one. You haven't the skill, the judgement, the sense of responsibility, nor the courage to carry one!"

~~I'm a bit confused as to who said that and why, but it seems highly presumptuous and even insulting. How does he know you don't have the skill, judgement, or responsibility?

It's probably best not to get imbroiled in an argument like this .... after awhile people will probably be unable to tell who's the fool and who's not.....

 

[dcarch]

I barely post anything on facebook anymore. I'm sick of getting in these myself.

 

[jerkface11]

I'm not friends with anti-gunners.

 

[chhodge69]

The choice to own a gun is a personal one not a statistical one. It sounds like you let him drag you down the wrong road. Point-counterpoint is not productive when both parties have dug in their heels.

Take another road - ask him what he would do if his family were threatened? "You don't like guns because criminals do bad things with them.. I get that. So how will you protect your family and could you do it with whatever blunt instrument you've chosen to arm yourself with? Think it through - are you prepared?"

odds are he'll say "phone" and now you have the upper hand.

 

[hogshead]

Never wrestle with a pig you will both get muddy and the pig will enjoy it.

 

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

Opinions man - everyone is allowed to hold whatever beliefs they choose to hold. It is really hard to change someone's beliefs.

Wasn't as much as trying to change his, more of defending mine.

~~I'm a bit confused as to who said that and why, but it seems highly presumptuous and even insulting. How does he know you don't have the skill, judgement, or responsibility?

It's probably best not to get imbroiled in an argument like this .... after awhile people will probably be unable to tell who's the fool and who's not...

I'm not actually sure who said that. I just seen it in my LGS, liked it, and shared it. I've a few friends on FB that are pro-gun and knew they'd like it if they'd seen the statement, that's why I posted it.

Well, hopefully they deem him the fool and not me. I didn't throw out some ridiculous things of happenstance trying to defend firearms as I seen them.

I barely post anything on facebook anymore. I'm sick of getting in these myself.

Actually, this is really my first run-in with anyone outside of my mother. At first she was against me having firearms, but I was able to ease her misgivings.

I'm not friends with anti-gunners.

I'm friends with an adverse bunch of people. It's in my nature. That said, I really don't hang out much with the Antis.

 

[pintler]

When people want to discuss rates by country, it's worth looking here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

note that many countries with laws more restrictive than the U.S. have higher rates. Also note the low rate of the Czech Republic, despite quite liberal laws. Overall, there isn't a strong correlation between laws and rates. Also note Finland and Switzerland, which have very low homicide rates but fairly high suicide rates. And there is Japan, with a suicide rate much greater than the U.S., but essentially no gun suicides.

Fewer guns, or more restrictive laws, just don't correlate well with fewer gun suicides or homicides.

 

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

When people want to discuss rates by country, it's worth looking here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate

note that many countries with laws more restrictive than the U.S. have higher rates. Also note the low rate of the Czech Republic, despite quite liberal laws. Overall, there isn't a strong correlation between laws and rates. Also note Finland and Switzerland, which have very low homicide rates but fairly high suicide rates. And there is Japan, with a suicide rate much greater than the U.S., but essentially no gun suicides.

Fewer guns, or more restrictive laws, just don't correlate well with fewer gun suicides or homicides.

That and the homicide rate in the US has gone down, hasn't it?

 

[sleepyone]

Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still...

and FaceBook, Twitter and other social media are helping to ensure that all intelligent and informed discourse of crucial matters is relegated to sound bites or pithy remarks of 144 characters or less.

 

[RBid]

Gun vs bat debate path & points:

"If you don't have a gun, what do you do if somebody breaks into your home?"

Their answers:

"I grab a baseball bat."
- this means resorting to violence.

- if the assertion is that this is because bats are potentially less fatal, then ask them to clarify if their specific goal is to fight to not-kill/fight to injure. If they are fighting to injure a person who has a) broken in, and b) continued to advance, when faced with a bat, then they are making the choice to risk the deaths of themselves and their family, to save the life of someone who has demonstrated extreme will to harm them.

- bats are easier to take away than guns (they involve entering physical contact distance, can be grabbed easily, etc)

- bats can be very fatal, even on accident

- "where is your bat, right now?" (safe bet... Nowhere that is quickly accessible, if they even know where it is)

- bats are less likely to deter an assailant WITHOUT injury or need-to-use than a bat. IE, presenting a firearm is often enough to prevent escalation. Presenting one reduces the chance of any injury to you, your family, OR THE CRIMINAL from happening, UNLESS the criminal is so committed to harming you that he/she does not stop, even when faced with a threat of death.

- given that only truly determined criminals continue to advance when facing a firearm, how does the bat option seem, when facing a criminal who would advance despite threat of death?

- what if the bad guy has a gun? How does that bat look?

- how does a bat look, against multiple bad guys?

- "would you rather scare someone away with a gun, or be forced to beat them with a bat? Which would you rather have your kids see?"
- likely response: "I'd rather they see me hit him with a bat, than shoot him?"
- yours: "...again, what if the bad guy has a gun?"
- "how would you feel about your family seeing you get beaten to death with the bat?"
- "how would you feel about being overwhelmed by 2 or more bad guys, who would likely run from a gun, and seeing your family beaten, shot, stabbed, raped, etc?"

- "what if you injure the bad guy, and THEN he leaves, and says that you hit him while he was trying to escape? Are you ready to get sued? Is that better than scaring him away with a gun?"


Bottom line: the only bad guy who will engage a man with a gun, is the kind who needs to be dealt with using extreme force.

 

[Cal-gun Fan]

I think he's got a good point to be honest. Guns aren't perfect. They provide an extremely easy way for people to commit crimes and kill people. You can't kill someone with a knife or baseball bat as efficiently as you can a gun. You can also kill more people at once. This has been proven time and time again with shootings. The argument over the "guns kill people" "people kill people...with guns" wording is petty and doesn't really matter to be honest. Guns make it easy for people to kill people.

That being said, I feel that there are plenty of benefits of having guns in a society that, overall, outweigh the negatives. However, its foolish to delude ourselves into thinking that there are absolutely no negative things about guns; we sound stupid when we do. Instead, we should look to the positive things they provide in a society.

 

[smalls]

Ever heard the quote "you can't fix stupid"?

Stop arguing with anti gunners.

Invite them to go shooting. If that won't convert them, they're a lost cause.

 

[Cal-gun Fan]

Ever heard the quote "you can't fix stupid"?

Stop arguing with anti gunners.

Invite them to go shooting. If that won't convert them, they're a lost cause.

They could easily apply that argument to those of us who blindly deny any downside to having guns in a society. They aren't stupid. To them, the negatives outweigh the benefits. Its a matter of opinion, not black and white. I've got lots of very good friends who disagree with me on the whole gun issue. I don't think they're stupid, "socialist", or "communist (words that are oft misused on gun forums) and they don't think I'm a dumb gun-toting hillbilly

 

[RBid]

The key is not to argue with 'them'. Fear most often stems from misunderstanding, or incomplete understanding. Be gentle, be rational. Help them understand how guns operate, and how responsible gun owners think and behave.

Make 'them' into 'us'.

 

[pockets]

My eyes glazed over after the first few 'he said, then I said, then he said'.
Seriously, trying to carry on a meaningful conversation with FB postings?

Thanks though, this did remind me why I closed my Facebook account a couple years back.


.

 

[beatledog7]

Best way I have found to argue with an anti-gun person:

Offer to take him or her to go to the range with you and put a few rounds through a couple of your favorites. The worst that can happen is that he or she will decline. The best that can happen--and probably will--is that the person will be surprised that you are willing to put your position to the test.

My point is simple: Invite an anti-gunner into our world, and show that person why we enjoy owning guns, how firearms works, etc.

The anti will not be able to make a parallel offer to you; thus, you have won.

 

[Lex Luthier]

Just a suggestion, but we should not use FB as a viable medium to express our 2A positions. Some of my friends do it, albeit subtly. My experience is that when I post a photo or chat about anything firearm related the antis come out of the woodwork and sometimes even unfriend me. It is better to keep that intel close to the vest, allowing one to keep a nice close view on the antis. Have you noticed the increase in firearm related adverts in your sidebar after doing such things? The great interweb marketing robot is tracking you.

 

[Walther P99]

I still don't understand why people need to advertise their lives on social media.

Like others have said, you probably won't sway an anti to our side with just words just like they won't sway us to theirs.

I would ask if guns are so dangerous, why don't we just send guns to war instead of soldiers and why aren't guns patrolling the streets instead of police officers..

 

[TurtlePhish]

LJ, you presented good arguments and kept your cool, probably handled the conversation/argument/whatever the best you could have. Doesn't seem like your friend really understands anything about guns or the reasoning behind them, nor do they make any effort to..
Not to offend you or them, but they don't seem like the most accurate round in the magazine, if you catch my drift.

 

[shuvelrider]

Let your friend live in his fuzzy soft world of make-believe and unicorns, he has drank the kool-aid of the liberal mindset his whole life. You wont change it anytime soon either, he will learn the hard way (sadly) when his life becomes threatened at some point. You cannot talk reason when a thug is intent on doing you harm or worse, at that point you can tell your friend "To bad So sad".