Does anyone keep track of shootings stopped by CC carriers?

[Carl N. Brown]

From Wikipedia: Concealed Carry in the United States

Firearms permit holders in active shooter incidents

In 2016 FBI analyzed 40 "active shooter incidents" in 2014 and 2015 where bystanders were put in peril in on-going incidents that could be affected by police or citizen response. Six incidents were successfully ended when citizens intervened. In two stops citizens restrained the shooters, one unarmed, one with pepper spray. In two stops at schools, the shooters were confronted by teachers: one shooter disarmed, one committed suicide. In two stops citizens with firearms permits exchanged gunfire with the shooter. In a failed stop attempt, a citizen with a firearms permit was killed by the shooter.[147]
In 2018 the FBI analyzed 50 active shooter incidents in 2016 and 2017. This report focused on policies to neutralize active shooters to save lives. In 10 incidents citizens confronted an active shooter. In eight incidents the citizens stopped the shooter. Four stops involved unarmed citizens who confronted and restrained or blocked the shooter or talked the shooter into surrender. Four stops involved citizens with firearms permits: two exchanged gunfire with a shooter and two detained the shooter at gunpoint for arrest by responding police. Of the two failed stops, one involved a permit holder who exchanged gunfire with the shooter but the shooter fled and continued shooting [elsewhere] and the other involved a permit holder who was wounded by the shooter. "Armed and unarmed citizens engaged the shooter in 10 incidents. They safely and successfully ended the shootings in eight of those incidents. Their selfless actions likely saved many lives."[148]

147. Schweit, Katherine W., "Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2014 and 2015", Federal Bureau of Investigation, 2016.
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/activeshooterincidentsus_2014-2015.pdf

147. "Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2016 and 2017", Federal Bureau of Investigation, April 2018.
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/active-shooter-incidents-us-2016-2017.pdf
"The FBI defines an active shooter as one or more individuals actively engaged in killing or attempting to kill people in a populated area. ... The active aspect of the definition inherently implies that both law enforcement personnel and citizens have the potential to affect the outcome of the event based upon their responses to the situation."

 

[Double Naught Spy]

How about Pastor David George?

How about him? Again, not your typical mom and pop sort of CCW now is he?

From the first article you cited...
A self-described “training junkie,” George is a father, grandfather, pastor, certified EMT, lifetime NRA member and certified range-safety officer.

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition, Pastor!

There is no way to know the actual percentage, but I think we have discussed previously on this forum the amazingly high number of people with CCW permits or are in Constitutional Carry states that don't carry on anything resembling a regular basis ("regular" being most of the time, and not regular as in "every Saturday"). A very small percentage of concealed carriers (or open carriers) are training junkies. If gun owners took one self defense gun class a year, our training schools would be covered in a deluge of students, but they aren't. More than once in helping with concealed carry classes (not even a self defense class, but the class needed for a permit to carry) did I find participants who unloaded the carry ammo they loaded in their guns 4 or 5 years previous when they finished the last class. More than once did I have students express pride in "still having it" who had not shot their guns in the past 4 or 5 years (Texas law changed from a 4 year cycle to a 5 year cycle, FYI) and who were pleased with having passed the course (which is exceptionally easy, LOL).

George did fine, but as I alluded to and JohnKSa reiterated, George would not by your typical June and Ward Cleaver, not your typical DINK type, non your typical anything but training junkie shooter type. Sure, we are big on the gun forums, but no doubt there is some corresponding behaviors between those who are active in a given craft and those who participate in forums relative to that craft. I drive a couple cars but am no aficionado and don't below to a car or truck forum. I own a cell phone and computer but am not on any cell or computer forums. I take care of my lawn but am not on any lawn forums (and quite frankly, my lawn isn't impressive). In other words, the gun forums give a sense of gun owners being well prepared, well trained, head on swivels, high standard semi professional and professional gun owners (or wannabes), but we are a tiny fraction of the CCW and gun owning communities.

Supposedly we have 5 million new gun owners in the last year with all the civil unrest and what not. https://www.guns.com/news/nearly-5-million-new-first-time-gun-owners-in-2020, but the gun ranges aren't staggeringly full. It could be argued that this is because of the ammo shortage and that would be valid to a certain extent, but as one range owner told me, "We sell a lot of guns and box or two of ammo. They buy the gun, go to our range, shoot a box of ammo, and we never see them again."

So when you think of all the CCW types out there, only a small percentage of them even bother carrying a gun most of the time. Here are some numbers that I ran in a thread in 2014 about a posted BBQ place that got robbed https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...eatery-gets-robbed.752854/page-2#post-9485087 (post 36)
Let's see, NC has bout 9.75 million people and about 228k permit holders, or about 2.3% of the population. Using national data that indicates approximately 70% of the population is 21 or over (able to concealed carry), then about 3.3% of the adult population of 6,825,000 has permits.

We know that at any given time, the vast majority of permit holders are not actually carrying guns, only about 20% or so, and that means that less than 1 in 100 adults are apt to be carrying in NC. Of those <1%, a goodly number will just be good witnesses or otherwise to scared to intervene.

Now, add to that all those people who do actually carry on a regular basis, but they are minimalist carriers. Their EDC is for convenience. They want to have a gun, any gun, so they have the NAA single action mini revolvers, the Kel-Tec P32s or maybe P380s. Some will carry something like a Nano or the like. These probably aren't the people that think to themselves, "I have sufficient firepower and combat effective weaponry to seek out and engage whomever is shooting up the place," right? These people aren't apt to try engage the shooter with their tiny EDCs unless the shooter in on top them/right in front of them at close range. Pastor George, like most people who engage active shooters, had a much more combat effective weapon, a Glock 19.

Of those that do carry regularly, probably only a small percentage are anything close to resembling regular, proficient shooters. There is probably a very good reason why so few non-LEO, non-former-LEO, non security types, non store employees at a gun shop, non training junky RSOs, etc. actually stop mass shootings or even try to engage the shooter in a mass shooting despite the fact that sheer numbers would statistically indicate there is the possibility that CCW permit holders are present at a number of these events. Either they aren't armed, and/or they just walk/run away with "I'm not a cop" attitudes. AND, a lot of people will tell you, egressing the situation without confrontation is your best possible solution.

 

[JohnKSa]

In 2016 FBI analyzed 40 "active shooter incidents" in 2014 and 2015 where bystanders were put in peril in on-going incidents that could be affected by police or citizen response. Six incidents were successfully ended when citizens intervened. In two stops citizens restrained the shooters, one unarmed, one with pepper spray. In two stops at schools, the shooters were confronted by teachers: one shooter disarmed, one committed suicide. In two stops citizens with firearms permits exchanged gunfire with the shooter. In a failed stop attempt, a citizen with a firearms permit was killed by the shooter.[147]
In 2018 the FBI analyzed 50 active shooter incidents in 2016 and 2017. This report focused on policies to neutralize active shooters to save lives. In 10 incidents citizens confronted an active shooter. In eight incidents the citizens stopped the shooter. Four stops involved unarmed citizens who confronted and restrained or blocked the shooter or talked the shooter into surrender. Four stops involved citizens with firearms permits: two exchanged gunfire with a shooter and two detained the shooter at gunpoint for arrest by responding police. Of the two failed stops, one involved a permit holder who exchanged gunfire with the shooter but the shooter fled and continued shooting and the other involved a permit holder who was wounded by the shooter. "Armed and unarmed citizens engaged the shooter in 10 incidents. They safely and successfully ended the shootings in eight of those incidents. Their selfless actions likely saved many lives."[148]

Good information.

This data refers to "active shooter incidents" and not mass shootings but it still provides insight. There are, of course, more "active shooter incidents" than "mass shootings" by any definition as "mass shootings" are a subset of "active shooter incidents".

In 2014-2015, there were, then, two active shooter incidents (I think I see actually see 3 when I go through the entire list one incident at a time) where an armed citizen intervened--in one the armed citizen was effective, in one he was killed before having any effect, in another the armed citizen was one of the targeted victims and was shot before returning fire and wounding the suspect.

So out of 6 situations where citizens intervened. 2 where the shooter was stopped physically or with pepper spray, 2 where the shooter was merely confronted and either simply gave up or committed suicide, one where an armed citizen shot the shooter, another where the armed citizen was killed without stopping the shooter, one where a wounded victim shot back and wounded the shooter who was then physically restrained.

One of those definitely fits the criteria of an armed citizen stopping an active shooter event Another might although it wasn't the classic picture given that the armed citizen could be said to be acting in simple self-defense and only wounded the shooter who was actually stopped by others who physically restrained him.

Pretty much the same kind of thing for the 2016-2017 data. Going through the incidents one at a time provided 2 that could reasonably qualify for the picture --one where a volunteer firefighter with a CCW stopped a shooter, another where the manager of the business with a CCW stopped one.

So from the overall four year period (85 incidents), there are perhaps 2-4 that qualify as CCWs stopping active shooters. One could then go back through that reduced list to see which of those qualify as mass shootings (or were likely to qualify as mass shootings if not stopped).

But even without doing that, it's pretty clear that while CCW laws do provide benefits, stopping mass shootings isn't really one of the benefits that should be touted heavily. When one looks at the data there's no avoiding the reality that typical CCW holders, though numerous, don't seem to figure into stopping mass shootings very often.

 

[Milt1]

An article published by Heritage Foundation research states: "according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, almost every major study on defensive gun use has found that Americans use their firearms defensively between 500,000 and 3 million times each year. There's good reason to believe that most defensive gun uses are never reported to law enforcement, much less picked up by local or national media outlets." This is virtually the same information that the NRA reports and is probably taken from the same source.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

An article published by Heritage Foundation research states: "according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, almost every major study on defensive gun use has found that Americans use their firearms defensively between 500,000 and 3 million times each year. There's good reason to believe that most defensive gun uses are never reported to law enforcement, much less picked up by local or national media outlets." This is virtually the same information that the NRA reports and is probably taken from the same source.

Did you forget to cite the source for your quote??? https://www.ammoland.com/2020/04/nr...g-a-defensive-gun-use-database/#axzz6prAUxr1l

Stopping an active shooter is not something that is going to get overlooked and unreported. And what, 90-99% of those statistically estimated defensive uses don't actually involve the discharge of a weapon and so have nothing to do with the OP's query. A huge percentage of them will have absolutely nothing to do with CC, so again, not relevant to the OP's query.

 

[Milt1]

I cited the source in the quote and it was the Heritage Foundation Research, not ammoland! Your welcome!

 

[.455_Hunter]

We damn sure could have used one today at our local grocery store. RIP Officer Talley- Thank you for engaging the perp and giving your life to protect citizens. I am sorry nobody was able to help you.

 

[JohnKSa]

An article published by Heritage Foundation research states: "according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, almost every major study on defensive gun use has found that Americans use their firearms defensively between 500,000 and 3 million times each year. There's good reason to believe that most defensive gun uses are never reported to law enforcement, much less picked up by local or national media outlets." This is virtually the same information that the NRA reports and is probably taken from the same source.

To be clear, I firmly believe that citizen concealed carry does provide concrete and very important benefits. I just don't believe stopping mass shootings is a benefit that should be touted given how rare it seems to be.

The study you quote illustrates the considerable benefit of firearm ownership which is more general than the benefit of concealed carry, and far more general than the benefit of stopping mass shootings. What I mean by that is that those incidents are certainly not limited to incidents that stopped mass shootings, and they also are not even limited to incidents involving concealed carry.

We damn sure could have used one today at our local grocery store.

King Sooper does not prohibit concealed carry although they do discourage open carry.

That means that anyone with a concealed carry permit COULD have been carrying in that store.

In Colorado, on average, one adult out of 8 has a permit to carry concealed.

Based on the statistics, there was about a 70% chance that one of the 9 victims who were not law enforcement had a concealed carry permit.

Based on the statistics, if we assume that there were 35-40 persons in the store, there was a better than 99% chance that at least one person in the store had a concealed carry permit.

The obvious conclusion is that if anyone had a permit, they either were not carrying or chose not to engage. Which seems to be very common in such situations. I'm not trying to say anything negative about the people who were in the store or the victims, it's just another case in point that citizens with concealed carry permits stopping mass shootings isn't nearly as common as the statistics suggest it should be.

 

[.455_Hunter]

King Soopers does not prohibit concealed carry although they do discourage open carry.

That means that anyone with a concealed carry permit COULD have been carrying in that store.

In Colorado, on average, one adult out of 8 has a permit to carry concealed.

Based on the statistics, there was about a 70% chance that one of the 9 victims who were not law enforcement had a concealed carry permit.

Based on the statistics, if we assume that there were 35-40 persons in the store, there was a better than 99% chance that at least one person in the store had a concealed carry permit.

The obvious conclusion is that if anyone had a permit, they either were not carrying or chose not to engage. Which seems to be very common in such situations. I'm not trying to say anything negative about the people who were in the store or the victims, it's just another case in point that citizens with concealed carry permits stopping mass shootings isn't nearly as common as the statistics suggest it should be.

There is a lot more that goes into the probability of an armed citizen being at a certain location at a certain time besides raw per capita permit statistics.

The demographics of the clientele vary greatly by day, time of day and of course the location of facility in question. Had this occured during the evening rush, who knows what might have happened, with way more working professionals passing through the store. Boulder County has a reasonable number of permit holders, but that gets much less once you are inside the true blue city limits. One of my armed friends who happens to live just a couple blocks away from the store was out on vacation with the family for Spring Break. As a person with an irregular work schedule, he could have easily been at the store yesterday. Unfortunately, people like him are low density in town.


An assessment of this phenomenon was done after the Aurora Century Theater event. The overlap of the population with the desire and ability to attend a midnight movie premier on a Thursday and the population who actively carry a legal weapon is almost non-existent. Many people were actually surprised James Holmes was not killed by an illegally armed patron given the high crime area of the theater.

Having been a frequent patron of this spree shooting location all of my life, I am working up a submission to S&T that's probably going to chafe some forum know-it-alls, but I don't care. My input is just as valid as theirs.

 

[JohnKSa]

There is a lot more that goes into the probability of an armed citizen being at a certain location at a certain time besides raw per capita permit statistics.

The statistic is for adults only, not a pure "per capita" statistic, but yes, it is taken across the entire state as opposed to being specific for Boulder.

Unfortunately CO doesn't provide data by county or municipality, but even if we assume that the rate of permit holders in Boulder is half what it is in the normal CO population overall, that still gives us better than even odds that at least one of the victims (other than the officer who was killed) would have had a permit and better than a 90% chance that if there were 37 or more people in the store, that at least one of them was a permit holder.

Ultimately no matter how carefully we "analyze" this, there is going to be some level of uncertainty/speculation unless we can get everyone in the store to volunteer whether they have a permit or not.

I think what's important to understand is that this isn't an unusual turn of events. If one looks at how often armed permit holders intervene in such events, it happens at a much lower rate than the statistics suggest should happen.

For example, permit holders outnumber police officers by more than 20 to 1 in the U.S. and yet, if we look at how often off-duty police officers stop intervene in mass shootings, the number is about the same as it is for armed citizens even though it should be more than 20 times less frequent. The big picture seems to be clear. Permit holders don't carry and/or they don't intervene in mass shootings nearly as often as one would expect based on how numerous they are.

I would LOVE to be talking about the armed permit holder who stopped this mass shooting, but that's obviously not what happened.

 

[Offhand McFlan]

Not an answer to my question, so I will assume you mean active shooters, spree shooters and mass shooters and that you mean actually stopping the shooter in the process of shooting (Mark Wilson, Vic Stacy)and not engaging him after the shooting is over (e.g., Sutherland Springs church). You aren't talking about stopping a convenience store robber type of deal. You aren't talking about those that blatantly failed in their attempts such as Dan McKown (sp?), Byron Wilson (Houston shooting), or Richard White (White Settlement church security guard) because they never got off a shot, McKown because he opted to yell at the shooter instead and Byron Wilson and Richard White were just too slow. You aren't talking about Nick Meli types who pointed their gun, but never fired a shot. The Sutherland Springs church incident also would not really fit because concealed carry had nothing to do with the incident as Stephen Willeford used an AR15 to he got from his safe at home. I assume you aren't talking about incidents where the good guy involved is actually a LEO (e.g. Trolley Springs), though maybe not on duty. Dan Mckown and Byron Wilson were both crippled. Mark Wilson and Richard White were both killed

Interestingly, a lot of the people who do engage active shooters turn out to be off duty cops or people with non-typical firearms training. Nick Meli was an armed security guard. Mark Wilson was a firearms instructor and had previously owned a gun range. Stephen Willleford was a NRA firearms instructor. Jack Wilson who stopped the church shooting in White Settlement was a former reserve deputy (so would have had his LEO creds), head of the church's security team, and long time owner of a firearms training academy.

Vic Stacy seems to be the real outlier in that he had no formal training (not even military), was just a good old boy that like guns, but managed to shoot a gunman who had killed two people and who had a cop pinned down with fire. However, Vic Stacy's situation, like that of Stephen Willeford, isn't a CC situation either. Stacy was in his trailer residence when he heard shooting and exited with a pistol in hand, bypassing a rifle he had at his door for security. I don't even know if Stacy had a CHL, but he didn't need one to have a gun in his residence.

Active shooters, when stopped by normal citizens, often are stopped by citizens using improvised weapons (Giffords shooting in AZ, Loughner beaten over head with folding chairs as he reloaded) or even disarmed by unarmed citizens (Silvia Seegrist disarmed by a lucky guy who thought she was pranking and that it wasn't funny). The Hialeah, FL mass shooter was killed by a citizen using his car to crush the shooter as he pedaled away on his bike https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ns-10-14-03-20-years-later.44786/#post-543457

So out of all that, all I get is Mark Wilson who reportedly had a CHL who actually shot at the gunman, but like Vic Stacy, he responded from his apartment (residence) over the square in Tyler and so having a CHL was not an issue to him being armed.

Mass Ayoob did this article on 10 cases where armed citizens stopped 'active shooters' and it is a bit bizarre...
https://www.personaldefenseworld.co...an-armed-citizen-took-down-an-active-shooter/

Cases 1 and 2, aren't in the US and so not really relevant to the concealed carry issue or mass shootings here in the US.
Case 3, wasn't even an active shooter. Apparently, Ayoob considers a guy with blade weapons to be a shooter. I don't know why.
Case 4, Pearl Mississippi, I don't think in CCW was involved and not shots were fired to stop the shooter, plus the principal had to get a gun from his car, so he wasn't even carrying, so not relevant to the OP query.
Case 5, Clackamas Mall, Nick Meli incident again, no shots fired at the gunman with a jammed gun, so not relevant to OP query https://www.foxnews.com/us/police-i...ay-gun-jammed-possibly-preventing-more-deaths
Case 6, Jeane Assam, may sort of apply. She was an ex cop working as church security, don't know if she retained LEO creds or had CCW creds, but did shoot and stop gunman
Case 7, church shooting stopped by off duty police officer, so LEO creds, not CCW creds, not your normal Joe Blow citizen
Case 8, Trolley Square, Kenneth Hammond, off duty police officer, again.
Case 9, GOOD example, a doctor stopped an active shooter at a hospital.
Case 10, from 1915, armed citizen stops shooter, GOOD EXAMPLE

So what are we left with? Well, as recently as 2015, Ayoob could not even come up with too many examples without looking outside the US and using incidents where the bad guy didn't even have a gun. Maybe somebody can come up with some better examples, but there are very few examples of non-LEO good guys actually shooting at bad guys who are actively shooting where the good guys were concealed carriers (meaning they were carrying outside of their home when the incident occurred. Mark Wilson, Vic Stacy, and Stephen Willeford all responded from their homes. Many of the responders were not your normal mom and pop CCW types either. They were off duty LEOs, retired LEOs, security guards, and firearms instructors. Two of them, Jeane Assam and Jack Wilson both engaged shooters when acting in the capacity of being security for their churches. Volunteer or paid, they were in place to deal with specific issues.

Where am I going with this rambling? Despite the millions of CCWs out there in America, a bunch of these are stopped by people who are LEOs, retired LEOs, off duty LEOs, firearms instructors, security guards, and/or responding from your home to an event you know to be happening nearby (however, see Another Addendum below)

Addendum - I forgot to mention Joseph Wilcox. He was a CCW person inside Walmart when Jerad and Amanda Miller decided to start their revolution in Las Vegas by killing cops, then going into Wal-mart where Jerad fired a shot and announced the revolution. Wilcox responded to confront Jerad Miller, drawing his gun and passing by Amanda Miller that he didn't realize was involved and she shot and killed him. Wilcox, for whatever reason, never fired a shot. This is another failed CCW attempt to stop an active shooter. Point? Stopping active shooters is dangerous.

Another addendum - here is an article with several instances of shooters stopped by "citizens with guns' although several cases are by cops and several cases are where no shots are fired. It does include instances that I failed to find previously that are relevant. Some of the instances are by people who are responding from home or businesses where no CCW may have been needed to have a gun. Contrary to the article, not all incidents were mass shootings and might not have every become mass shootings, but they were active shootings/shots fired situations.

http://memepoliceman.com/list-of-mass-shootings-stopped-by-armed-civilians/

Having been an LEO or being an off-duty LEO would naturally give anyone in good standing more confidence in shooting to stop a violent act. Reason being, you can probably rest assured that the Law Enforcement "community" and courts will simply be more likely to back you up and you'll have more experience confronting violent people than most. YMMV. I know mine do...

Confronting a masked intruder with a weapon in my own home is one thing (I'd pull the trigger, end of story). Being confronted by a loon with a metal pipe in a public place is a different story. I've never been in a situation remotely like it. And I have no real friends in the law enforcement community who would vouch for my judgment. I'd be partially at the mercy of what witnesses CHOOSE to say, and many of them may be anti-gun. That is enough to really make one think at least a little before shooting.

 

[Jeff White]

But what are the odds the permit holder was armed at the time? I know a lot of permit holders who got a permit so they could keep a loaded gun in their vehicle. Others I know only carry if they think they might need a gun.

Let’s face it, carrying a gun, especially a service grade weapon (which is what you are going to want in that situation) requires a lot of modifications to one’s normal dress and routine. The pocket pistol many people carry isn’t what you’re going to need to take out an active shooter.

I also think the location of an active shooter incident is going to affect a citizens decision to intervene. If you are in a major metropolitan area when responding officers are going to be on the scene in two or three minutes being visibly armed will put you in danger of being shot down by responding officers. We’ve discussed that at length here in the past.

While there is anecdotal evidence that concealed carry has an influence on the crime rate, I don’t think it’s possible to measure how much influence it has.

 

[JohnKSa]

But what are the odds the permit holder was armed at the time?

There aren't any good statistics I'm aware of that we could draw on for that. I can provide an estimate from my personal experience with people who have permits, but that hardly amounts to much more than a guess.

From what I see with the people I know who have permits, I would say that less than 10% of them carry a gun on their person on any sort of a regular basis.

If you are in a major metropolitan area when responding officers are going to be on the scene in two or three minutes being visibly armed will put you in danger of being shot down by responding officers.

That's where it starts to be interesting if there are so many victims that the statistics say it's likely that one of them was a permit holder. Someone actually being targeted isn't going to have to make a conscious decision about intervening, because they are trying to survive. Similarly they are not at all likely to be concerned about being shot by responding law enforcement.

There's obviously much more uncertainty about someone who isn't actually being specifically targeted and has the choice of standing back, or even of fleeing vs. engaging.

 

[Offhand McFlan]

But what are the odds the permit holder was armed at the time? I know a lot of permit holders who got a permit so they could keep a loaded gun in their vehicle. Others I know only carry if they think they might need a gun.

Let’s face it, carrying a gun, especially a service grade weapon (which is what you are going to want in that situation) requires a lot of modifications to one’s normal dress and routine. The pocket pistol many people carry isn’t what you’re going to need to take out an active shooter.

I also think the location of an active shooter incident is going to affect a citizens decision to intervene. If you are in a major metropolitan area when responding officers are going to be on the scene in two or three minutes being visibly armed will put you in danger of being shot down by responding officers. We’ve discussed that at length here in the past.

While there is anecdotal evidence that concealed carry has an influence on the crime rate, I don’t think it’s possible to measure how much influence it has.

I pretty much carry everywhere the law allows. On some occasions when I enter a convenience store with cops also getting coffee, I leave mine in the car for two obvious reasons. One, so the cops dont worry about me and Two, because with cops standing around the joint is pretty much a whole lot safer. I've also on some rare occasions not holstered my gun before going in when there are too many people in proximity to my car who will see me do it. A squirrely person who gets the wrong idea could cause some trouble for you. It's a hard call sometimes. .

 

[Broccolis]

There are so many instance but the MSM are interested because good news doesn't sell.

 

[old lady new shooter]

But what are the odds the permit holder was armed at the time? I know a lot of permit holders who got a permit so they could keep a loaded gun in their vehicle. Others I know only carry if they think they might need a gun.

Let’s face it, carrying a gun, especially a service grade weapon (which is what you are going to want in that situation) requires a lot of modifications to one’s normal dress and routine. The pocket pistol many people carry isn’t what you’re going to need to take out an active shooter.

I also think the location of an active shooter incident is going to affect a citizens decision to intervene. If you are in a major metropolitan area when responding officers are going to be on the scene in two or three minutes being visibly armed will put you in danger of being shot down by responding officers. We’ve discussed that at length here in the past.

While there is anecdotal evidence that concealed carry has an influence on the crime rate, I don’t think it’s possible to measure how much influence it has.

Just speculating, but I think areas where concealed carry is common might be less likely to have one-on-one type street crime, however a mass shooting (or attempt at same) is a completely different animal -- a garden variety robber is after your money, a mass shooter is out to destroy.

 

[danez71]

Obviously the FBI won't, but is there anyone private that even tries? TIA.

Also obviously, when they ARE stopped then they're "not news" for the big media, so it's going to be hard to look just by Googling. When they're not stopped, of course, then they become the ONLY news... no one keeps track of murders caused by the Drug War.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/17/us/metro-atlanta-shootings-wednesday/index.html

I haven't seen anything solely specifically for CC citizens but the FBI does/has done studies related and include some CC citizen info as well as unarmed citizens and off duty LEOs.

Your OP doesn't mention 'mass' shootings and IMO probably for good reason because shootings that are stopped before they reach the threshold of mass shootings wouldn't be recorded as mass shootings thus diluting things. The report hits on that.

In any case, according to the FBI during 2000-2013, a CC citizen was about 50% as likely as an armed off duty LEO to stop the shooting (specifically noted as citizen CC)

However more broadly, citizens had engaged in gun fire with the shooter, stopping it, 3.1% of the shooting incidents (not LEO and not noted as CC citizen)

That represents stopping the bad guy 2.5 times MORE often by armed citizens as compared to armed off-duty LEOs.

The actual documented results is a lot better than the theoretical predicted statictical results with some assumed #s.

Interestingly to me, the data shows unarmed citizens had the best stat. Who knew 'Mindset over tool set' is really a thing!?!

*In 21 incidents (13.1%), the situation ended after unarmed citizens safely and successfully restrained the shooter. In 2 of those incidents, 3 off-duty law enforcement officers were present and assisted. Of note, 11 of the incidents involved unarmed principals, teachers, other school staff and students who confronted shooters to end the threat (9 of those shooters were students).

*In 5 incidents (3.1%), the shooting ended after armed individuals who were not law enforcement personnel exchanged gunfire with the shooters. In these incidents, 3 shooters were killed, 1 was wounded, and 1 committed suicide.


*In 2 incidents (1.3%), 2 armed, off-duty police officers engaged the shooters, resulting in the death of the shooters. In 1 of those incidents, the off-duty officer assisted a responding officer to end the threat.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Interestingly to me, the data shows unarmed citizens had the best stat. Who knew 'Mindset over tool set' is really a thing!?!

I did. Not to be smug, but back in the day I rued the cry of people claiming to be defenseless if they didn't have a gun. My argument was that they were basically victims in waiting if that was their mindset. Here is my post from 2012 on unarmed citizens and tackling active shooters https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...police-in-mass-shootings.670928/#post-8319703 which references specifically a list a compiled of such events from 2011 https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=436861&highlight=tacking Sadly, a bunch of the direct links are undoubtedly dead now.

I also noted several examples of people being injured or killed attempting to subdue active shooters while unarmed (meaning - without a firearm). Attempting to engage an active shoot is dangerous, whether you are armed or not.

I compiled the list of such events specifically to help show people that they don't have to be armed to fight back. We would all prefer to be armed, no doubt. In no way am I suggesting being unarmed is the best defense against active shooters, only that one need not consider themselves to be defenseless. Sadly, many people still balked at my argument despite the numerous examples I provided. For many people, mindset only comes from the muzzle of a gun.

 

[telomerase]

I compiled the list of such events specifically to help show people that they don't have to be armed to fight back.

Good job... of course the world is full of sharp, blunt, explosive, and toxic objects. You're rarely "unarmed".

 

[.455_Hunter]

I agree that step 1 in being "armed" is approproate state of mind. The heros on Flight 93 used expedient weapons to good effect.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Good job... of course the world is full of sharp, blunt, explosive, and toxic objects. You're rarely "unarmed".

I agree with you 100%, but far too many gun owners don't see it that way. They perceive the only defense to a gun is another gun. At the Giffords shooting, folks used folding chair to smack Loughner over the head while he was reloading. At the Red Lake Indian Reservation school shooting, Jeff May attempted to stab the shooter with a pencil, but the stab was deflected by a stolen ballistic vest and May was shot in the face while grappling with the shooter, saving the lives of many who were able to escape while he fought back (too bad nobody helped him).

 

[Kleanbore]

In any case, according to the FBI during 2000-2013,

Source?

 

[danez71]

Source?

Sure, no problem. Thanks for asking nicely instead of being confrontational.

I've posted it here 2 others times over the years.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-responsible-gun-owners.789447/#post-10042099

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-recent-shootings.828287/page-8#post-10682151

Direct link for pdf download still works.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/20...r-incidents-in-the-u.s.-between-2000-and-2013


Some good discussion/info in those threads; some doesn't jive with this thread. A few other mods back then.

Which leads me to ask.. off topic, but... Mod Sam1911 isn't around any longer? TONS and TONS of knowledge but still humble enough to be open minded and not confrontational when presented other/alt info. I miss him. A loss for sure. Can you share an update? PM?

 

[JohnKSa]

*In 5 incidents (3.1%), the shooting ended after armed individuals who were not law enforcement personnel exchanged gunfire with the shooters. In these incidents, 3 shooters were killed, 1 was wounded, and 1 committed suicide.


*In 2 incidents (1.3%), 2 armed, off-duty police officers engaged the shooters, resulting in the death of the shooters. In 1 of those incidents, the off-duty officer assisted a responding officer to end the threat.

One thing to keep in mind is that an "armed individual" does not always equate to a CC citizen. Not that it makes any difference at all in terms of getting the shooting stopped, but it does make a difference in terms of being able to legitimately claim that a CC citizen stopped a shooting when it was really, for example, the owner of the business armed with a shotgun, or an armed security guard, and not someone with a permit carrying concealed (i.e. "CC carrier").

 

[danez71]

One thing to keep in mind is that an "armed individual" does not always equate to a CC citizen.

That was noted twice in my post above & it was also noted in more detail in both of the other 2 threads I linked from 2015 and 2017 on THR.

The FBI report I linked also notes that distinction as well, multiple times.


Alas, one might need to be able to read with out closed minded self bias to have a chance at comprehending it.

In any case, according to the FBI during 2000-2013, a CC citizen was about 50% as likely as an armed off duty LEO to stop the shooting (specifically noted as citizen CC)

However more broadly, citizens had engaged in gun fire with the shooter, stopping it, 3.1% of the shooting incidents (not LEO and not noted as CC citizen)