Don't know what is the fascination is with Russian firearms?

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AUTHENTIC Russian made Mosin Nagants and AK-47's are near-perfect machines...On terms of quality and reliability, those 2 weapons are LEGENDARY. Need I add links? No, because you simply "Google" either one, and you will get more than an eye-full.
 
They're comparatively cheap compared to US made guns and they almost always work. You really have to beat the hell out of a Russian gun before it gives you a problem. Are they accurate? They're good enough for what most people need a gun to do.

Here's how I look at it by means of personification:

An AR and an AK are looking at two badguys at 200 yards


AR: I can hit that guy in the chest.
AK: So can I.
(both guns shoot)
AR: I hit mine in the heart, he's dead. Yours is still breathing
(AK shoots again)
AK: He's dead now.
AR: You took two shots!
AK: So what? Why so picky? That's why I come with a 30 round magazine.
 
OK, I get the history and the spoils of war thing, hell I have a Russian wife, but quality, give me a break. The AK is so prolific because it is cheap to make and can be handed to any knucklehead around the world and he can put lead in the air.

The AK vs the AR is like comparing an RG revolver to a Colt Python; yes the RG goes bang every time but quality it is not.
 
OK, I get the history and the spoils of war thing, hell I have a Russian wife, but quality, give me a break. The AK is so prolific because it is cheap to make and can be handed to any knucklehead around the world and he can put lead in the air.

Pretty much, yeah.

Which speaks a lot about the design when it will still hit man-sized targets at four and five hundred yards, doesn't it? Two and three times that, with a Nagant that's still in good shape.
 
OK, I get the history and the spoils of war thing, hell I have a Russian wife, but quality, give me a break. The AK is so prolific because it is cheap to make and can be handed to any knucklehead around the world and he can put lead in the air.

The AK vs the AR is like comparing an RG revolver to a Colt Python; yes the RG goes bang every time but quality it is not.

So I think you should define "Quality" for you.

Personally, a quality weapon is a weapon I can use anywhere in the world, under the worst conditions and which would keep me alive while killing the BD.

So you can pay a lot more for a nicely designed gun, with a beautiful finish, made of the purest metal available out there... but what's the point to have a beautiful gun in your hands if you can't shoot it because it jams every time you squeeze the trigger ?

In our army we are issued Sig 550 rifles, which are not a junk... still I would go with an AK-47 in the field...

Don't be upset because the "cheap" AK-47 will beat any of your "high end custom" guns hands down when you put your life on the line...

Just know to make the difference between a weapon designed for the week-end when your comfortably installed in front of your target with a soda and your toolbox near you, and a gun made to resist a nuclear war in the field.
 
Fact is there's not single Russian military item that would past mustard with the US Milatary.

Why, then, was the AK-47 a perferred infantry weapon in the Vietnam conflict. I've read time and again of soldiers trading their M-16 for an AK-47 at the first opprotunity they had to grab one. Hell, using captured weapons instead of US Issue still happens today in Iraq and Afghanistan. If the M4/M16 platform is in every way superior, as you've basically been stating, why does this happen so frequently? Maybe, jst maybe, some of those soldiers feel as if the AK is more than suitable for the purpose they are using them for, and MORE suitable than the weapons they were orignally issued, prehaps? The AK has remained a production fireamr for all these generations for reasons other than cheapness. If it ain't broke.......
 
I have a Mosin that will ring a 24-inch gong at 500 meters all day long.

I have an AK that I enjoy popping rows of beer bottles rapid fire at 100 yards.

I have a Mak that groups about an inch at 25 yards.

None of them has ever failed in anyway.

At a recent three-gun shoot there were more than 40 AR variants and one SKS and one AK. The winner in the rifle phase was an SKS that was fed from stripper clips. Of the top five places two were won by cheap Russian "throw aways."

In combat it is desirable to use an AK if you are fighting troops armed with AKs. The sound is quite distinctive. An M16/4 is also quite distinctive and it is a call to arms for those who carry AKs.

Reliable? I'll take an AK over an AR.

Accurate? It ain't a target match.

Ease of maintenance? Um, I found this AK/Mosin laying in the mud and it still works just fine...

Maks? I have a box full. None of them have ever jammed. Some are more accurate than others, but they always go bang.

The short answer - Russia never lost anything because of inferior weaponry.
 
Price Yamoto - When you say as compared to US made weapons the AK is more reliable that is a myth that I can dispel since I carried one for 22 years; all weapons malfunction in the harsh conditions of combat, but a properly maintained M-16 is superbly reliable. As for your accuracy claim I suggest you view the testing at the link provided. The AK is about a 5 MOA weapon where the m-16 in 1 MOA weapon; this translates into a 3" group at 300 yards for an M-16 and a 15" group for the AK. Even if the AK is properly aimed (hard to do with the poorly designed sights) that is a clean miss at 300 yards.

http://splodetv.com/ak-47-vs-m16

Snake Doc - if you say you would choose the AK over the 550 in combat that is almost silly enough not to warrant response; by the way, when was it that the Swiss Army was last in combat?
 
i have a mosin and a tokarev. Both excellent weapons.

I don't like black or plastic guns. I like wood and steel. You've got to remember that quality of manufacturing, accuracy, and looks are not the the sole criteria for weapons. The reason that Russian weapons have been present in (i think i can safely say) every conflict since WWII...you are disagreeing with history. In Africa...where people don't know how to clean guns...you don't see any ARs. You have to understand that the ability to run on no cleaning and crappy ammo is a virtue. It's not degrading to a design.
 
This sure is a bizarre thread. I've personally got no great love of Russian weapons either, but I'm not bothered by people who do.

I'm not really sure what the argument is about....seems everyone is all agreed that your Russian weapons are generally cheap, reliable and good enough for your average (or more to the point, distinctly below average, in a lot of cases) soldier worldwide, which is what they are designed for.

The only comment thus far that I wouldn't agree with is carrying an AK into battle over a Sig 550....while I admit Russian weapons have their place around the world, I'd suspect you wouldn't find many AK users who'd agree with that either, if they were given a choice! :)
 
I have quite a collection of Russian arms (or Combloc copies). I like them for the interesting history and a curiosity for weapons designs. And they are fun to shoot.

However,

There is no way that I would give up my M1 Carbine before any of my SKS

There is no way I would give up any of my ARs before my AK

There is no way I would give up my Finn M39s or Swiss K31s before my Russian 91/30s

There is no way I would give up my 1911 before my Tokarev

There is no way I would give up Garand before my SVT40

The only preferred gun I have is my Makarov. I like it better than my PP. But the Mak is an East German.
 
I shot a tokarev for the first time on the 4th of July. Simple and rugged, and was as accurate as any other pistol I've ever shot from 10 yards. Didn't feel like junk to me.
 
The Tokarev is probably the most under rated pistol in history. Hated and reviled as a bastard cousin of the 1911,it's actually a reliable all steel pistol that I'd pick over the tupperware available today,anytime.
 
Kwanger - Excellent point, I am not really bothered by people that like them, I was just commenting on the almost cult like following on this forum for them. The proportion of threads that are generated about these weapons tauting there super human capabilities would seem to be way out of proportion to their actual status as a quality firearm (totally unscientific, I have no actual idea what the ratio of created threads is.)
 
This rifle was designed for a peasant army that didn't have any marksmanship skills and couldn't be counted on to maintain it.
Not the case, actually. It was designed for a trained, well educated, and professional army with recent combat experience. BUT, it was also designed with the lessons of the siege of Stalingrad in mind; the Russians realized that you may not always have ready access to cleaning supplies and an armorer.

I can't imagine a western arms manufacturer trying to pass off a similar design as a quality firearm; they would be laughed at in these forums.
You mean like Israel Military Industries tried to pass off the Galil as a quality firearm? Or the Finns tried to pass off the Valmet? :D

Fact is there's not single Russian military item that would past mustard with the US Milatary. Now, or in the past. Not one single gun, tank, airplane, or ship.
Which was the superior tank, the Sherman or the T-34?

The Lavochkin La-5FN and the Yakovlev Yak-3 are widely regarded as two of the best fighters of World War II. Don't forget, the Russians gained air superiority over the Germans on the Eastern Front, and they didn't do it with crap equipment. We probably didn't field any land-based fighters that good until the P-51.

The Sukhoi SU-27 family (Su-27/30/33/35/37) are all first-rate by American and European standards.

And we still depend on Russian spacecraft to carry supplies and people to/from the International Space Station, because they are more reliable, safer, and more robust than our systems (and far cheaper).

The AK is so prolific because it is cheap to make and can be handed to any knucklehead around the world and he can put lead in the air.
It's so prolific because the Warsaw Pact handed out AK's and AK factories as part of diplomacy. Had the Soviets fielded the M16, they'd have done the same.

The AK's ease of manufacture and reliability does make it well suited to Third World conditions, but it was not originally designed for Third World use.

The AK is about a 5 MOA weapon where the m-16 in 1 MOA weapon
Not when comparing apples to apples. Rack grade M16's shooting rack grade ammo are not 1 MOA weapons, and most Russian AK's will do better than 5 MOA. Yes, the M16 has a bit of an accuracy edge, but not a fivefold one.

The proportion of threads that are generated about these weapons tauting there super human capabilities would seem to be way out of proportion to their actual status as a quality firearm
There seem to be more threads bashing them than ascribing "superhuman capabilities" to them, IMO. They are good, and have their own advantages and disadvantages compared to various Western designs.
 
Part of the challenge with this thread is perhaps that the assertions are too broad, covering the whole panorama of Russian arms. Each weapon could be debated on its own merits.

The Mosin 1891 - rugged, reliable and accurate build, certainly excellent for its time (late 19th century), improved even further by the Finns (with improved sights and new barrels).

M38/M44 - same positive attributes as above, but the recoil and the muzzle flash from this carbine are negatives to some (including someone I knew who used one during the war - he was a little guy, and said it just about knocked him down every time he fired).

SVT-40 - err, not as great a design for combat conditions. Can't give a thumbs up for this one, though I love the looks of the weapon.

AK-47 - rugged and reliable, the genius is in its simplicity (first time I took one apart I was left thinking "there's just gotta be more parts"). Quality is arguable (again, semantics) but there is a method (or kind of genius) behind the madness.

Makarov pistol - I love it, but a friend of mine hates them. Why - he served as an NCO a Soviet armored crew in the 80s. A drunk Lt. tried to tease him by aiming between his legs and decocking. Pistol went off, but missed his "bubenchiki" by an inch. He blames the quality of the pistol, but I would tend to tag the quality of the user ...
 
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Call me crazy, I'd love a Bizon and a Grach please.

Russians have a totally different mindset to design. "Sharp where it needs to be, rough where it doesn't." "Our rifle is also a club"! "Yes this will run on yak urine or whale oil, it was made for use on sakhalin island." "Yes two plus two is four, but we only need 3.5."

Thier 'do more with less' attitude has made them pretty darn great maccguyvers... hell they dressed up in FUR suits and repaired not one but 3 space stations.

Also look at the crazy Russian weapons.. underwater rifles, planet of the apes looking bullpups.. the stuff is just brilliantly strange.
 
Their Stuff is Built Like a Tank (Including Their Tanks)

I was stationed in Germany when the wall came down. You wouldn't believe the stuff that was floating around. For fear of being courts-marshaled I didn't buy any weaponry, but things like watches, binoculars, uniforms, it was all over the place.

They made everything to withstand a Soviet Bloc solder's use in the dead of a Russian winter.

It was just cool stuff. (Still is)
 
I've got a couple nits to pick....

I'm generally entertained by the endless AK vs. AR debate but.... it really bugs me that 99% of the time it's an apples/oranges comparison. If you're going to compare an AR and an AK please use the comparable caliber AK, the AK-74! The Russians replaced the 7.62x39 round in 19 friggin' 74! A rack grade AK-74 and a rack grade M16 shooting the same ammunition are much closer in accuracy and capability. Supposedly the AK-74 is even more reliable than the AK-47 or AKM, if that's even possible.

Also, if you're going to compare something to an M4 that was adopted in 1994, why not compare it to the Russian AN-94, adopted the same year? The AN-94 Abakan replaced the Kalashnikov in Russia's "elite" units. It's coolest feature is it's two-shot burst where it fires two rounds in 0.033 seconds. (That's one-third of one-tenth of one second.) Both bullets leave the barrel before recoil is felt by the shooter. This thing is wicked cool and I wish I could buy one! It makes all body armor for the foreseeable future obsolete. It defeats a lot of vehicle armor as well using standard FMJ. Two rounds hitting the same spot almost simultaneously is pure brilliance no matter who thought of it!

:evil:
 
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Bunnypuncher , I beleive we may have grownup in a parallel universe . Our storys are the same . Kids just don't understand the history or the respect given to a rifle that has been around the world and ended up in your hands giving you the pleasure of owning it and shooting it . Life is short learn your history and respect the men and women who made it .2 cents
 
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