Don't like airweight snubs.

[heeler]

David...First I have zero issues shooting my micro 380's,the new Kel Tec P 32,my Kahr PM9 or my Ruger Service Six.
I dont own a digital camera(and no my cell phone does not take pictures) and even if I did I would not know how to post a picture anyway.
The simple truth is the trigger on my J frame just eats my trigger finger after several shots.

 

[David E]

Don't worry been there done that got the T-shirt and moved to 50 yards.

Ok, so you're telling me that you're firing 5 shots, "A" zone only, in two seconds using an Airweight .38 snubnose, right? (this thread IS about Airweight .38's, after all) From the holster? Low ready? Timed how?

here's where I know your in uncharted terratory (SP) for your skill level.

Quite the leap you made there, hope you used a parachute!

I shot the Department record high score using a Smith & Wesson Model 38 (Airweight Bodyguard, old style) on the 50 yd course back in 1988, which still stands today. I fired the entire thing double action, including the weak-hand strings at 25 and 50 yds. Last month I won a State Snubnose Match using a DAO 442, so I'm pretty sure I could keep up with most snubby shooters.......well, except for you, of course!

You sure talk a good game, I'll give you that.

 

[David E]

Heeled, eating it how?

Describe your hold.

 

[heeler]

Well David I'm not looking at my finger while shooting but again it's only this pistol that does this.
It's seems worse with the recoil and finger punishment using 158 grain fmj ammo.
Actually both sides of the trigger finger gets punished with the 158's.
I cant even imagine using plus P's.
This early 70's pistol also has the original wood grips if that's any help.
Honestly it's the most uncomfortable pistol to shoot I have tried.

 

[mavracer]

Ok, so you're telling me that you're firing 5 shots, "A" zone only, in two seconds using an Airweight .38 snubnose, right? (this thread IS about Airweight .38's, after all) From the holster? Low ready? Timed how?

Yes 25 yards with either the 442 pictured earlier or my LCR although sometimes I use a B27 and use the 9 ring as a benchmark, from the low ready, and the pact club timer I mentioned earlier. It's a big reason behind my ability it has par time and a random start so that I can practice by my self setting the par time at the desired goal I can just focus on getting done before the second beep.
I'll concede the spelling bee.
And while I don't have any big wins on my resume even at the club level mostly because we had 4 master class shooters and it's kinda tough to set any records when your shooting against Fred Craig. But I was a solid A class uspsa shooter when I quit shooting IPSC in '96. Back then I was also shooting IHSMA and bowling pins. I took some time off from comp but started shooting IDPA in 2008 and have made Expert in all 5 classes.
Maybe my problem is I don't just look at shooting only for defensive purposes. I don't even look at competetion as competetive as I used to. The reason I quit IPSC is it had become an equipment race. I now get more enjoyment just trying to push the limits of my ability and the mechanical limits of the guns. Last fall I shot my SP101 in a informal bullseye league and still finished 5th in raw score.

 

[iflyem1]

Let's just agree that some people are just not ment to shoot an airweight and some are. No big deal.

 

[David E]

Yeah, Fred is pretty salty, but Jamie is a bit more so. I've beaten them both, but it's never easy or certain.

"A" class is where the "good" label starts to apply. As you know, there are two levels past it.

Heeler, when I get on my computer I'll PM you.

Iflyem1, Most people don't shoot a snubby well, but most people simply don't know how.

 

[heeler]

Look forward to the PM David.
And thanks.
Perhaps it's me or the shape of my Model 37 or maybe I could shoot a gun like an LCR better...I dont know because the Smith is the only one I have.
I really dont want to get rid of it because of it's age and build quality but if I just dont shoot it well then...We will see after I give it some more time.

 

[Warhorse1]

I love my 638.

Old "humpy" is getting more carry time than ever before, just to damned convenient.

 

[skidder]

heeler-- Throw it under the seat of your wood truck for a backup, just in case someone tries to bump you out of your cutting spot. A 38 and a chainsaw make a statement when one of those deliverance fruits pulls up and tries to muscle you out. Those Jack wagons don't know its pot metal, and they don't have a clue you can't hit the side of barn.

I can't hit jack with those darn things, but they still look like guns. I have an old Saturday night special with me and it looks like hell. When it gets snagged on the brush or hit by a branch it just adds to the character.

I hope this solves your problem.

 

[mavracer]

Yeah, Fred is pretty salty, but Jamie is a bit more so. I've beaten them both, but it's never easy or certain.

Yes even back then Jamie was a bit faster althoug Fred was more consistant. I know (at least back then) they wern't mucch on sportsmanship. Their guns were louder when a chrony was at the match yet always claimed major and it seamed they were allergic to pasters and brass. Back then before Jamie was moved to GM he was easy to beat all you had to do is set up a classifier, he'd tank it to stay in a lower class. That kind of stuff was part of my quiting IPSC.

 

[oldfool]

so... is ol' Fred into micro magnum next generation defense pistolas these days, or what ?

(must be time to get up some fresh popcorn here; day old does get better with enough salt and butter when proper made fresh, but it do get a little stale after the 1st week)

 

[JoeShmoe]

Pie plates and pieces of folded paper are not a threat. Seems to me that defensive training should be done with realistic "bad guy" targets, at fighting distances.

If I can draw and fire 5 shots from my 340PD to center of mass, in a reasonably fast time, I'm good with that. Yes I practice with 357 Magnums, and no I don't miss much.

I respect the guys that can do all the things that have been discussed here, but I don't know if it's going to help you win the gunfight.

 

[Guillermo]

defensive training should be done with realistic "bad guy" targets

paper is paper

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Pie plates and folded pieces of paper are smaller than the targets you will be facing. If you can hit those at distance and speed, you will be overprepared for the best case scenario.

 

[9mmforMe]

I love the model 642. I learned to shoot with a double action revolver and think it prepared me for any trigger system I have fired since. The .38 +Ps are quite manageable. Great gun.

 

[David E]

If I can draw and fire 5 shots from my 340PD to center of mass, in a reasonably fast time, I'm good with that. Yes I practice with 357 Magnums, and no I don't miss much.

Please define "reasonably fast."

How big a group at what distance in what time frame is acceptable to you?

Please be specific.

 

[JoeShmoe]

Please define "reasonably fast."

How big a group at what distance in what time frame is acceptable to you?

Please be specific.

Tight groups are not the objective in a gunfight. A 6 or even 8 inch group within the center of mass will stop the threat. Reasonably fast is fast enough to place your shots before he shoots you. Fighting distance is anything from 0 to 10 yards.

I'm not saying there is no value in being able to rapidly place five shots into a tight group at 10 yards. Muscle memory and trigger control are important. I think it is an assumption that if this is all you do, you will come out on top in a real fight.

 

[JoeShmoe]

Pie plates and folded pieces of paper are smaller than the targets you will be facing. If you can hit those at distance and speed, you will be overprepared for the best case scenario.

I understand the concept of "aim small miss small", but there is more to it. Pie plates don't present a shoot, no shoot, decision. They don't move. A bad guy is not going to have a circle on his chest. I think defensive training should be somewhat realistic. Practice moving. Practice shooting from cover. Practice with more than one assailant. Practice shooting under stress.

 

[Guillermo]

David,

Mav has suggested that Fred and Jamie are cheaters.

Would you like to comment on that?

Also, would you comment on practicing w lower power cartridges?

I have found that even when practicing with low power (cheap) rounds it improves my shooting with more stout rounds. My theory is that practice is practice.

 

[David E]

Tight groups are not the objective in a gunfight. A 6 or even 8 inch group within the center of mass will stop the threat.

Realistically, anything "C" zone or better of an IPSC target should have an effect. It's a pretty big area, but a sheet of typing paper (unfolded) placed in the chest of the target isn't that tough to hit at 10 feet or less. Any hit is better than any miss, but a high chest hit is preferred over a peripheral hit.

[/quote] Reasonably fast is fast enough to place your shots before he shoots you.[/quote]

This sounds all wise and crap, but it's impossible to train for. One person might think "reasonably fast" is one or two seconds.....per shot. What's wrong with assigning a basic standard to test your skill against? Five shots on a sheet of typing paper at five feet in 3 seconds isn't difficult at all.

I think it is an assumption that if this is all you do, (shoot small groups fast) you will come out on top in a real fight.

There are never guarantees, but I would much rather have someone by my side that CAN shoot small groups fast than someone who shoots "reasonably fast" who thinks "reasonable" is a second per shot and thinks the little toe is just as good a target as center chest.

 

[David E]

I understand the concept of "aim small miss small", but there is more to it. Pie plates don't present a shoot, no shoot, decision. A bad guy is not going to have a circle on his chest.

I think you're getting caught up in the pie plate or typing paper as a target. While I won't speak for anyone else, my goal is to have the group that size. If you'd prefer to shoot a realistic photo target of a bad guy without a pie plate, that's fine. Shoot your drill then see if a pie plate/paper would cover it.

This isn't supposed to be "shoot/don't shoot" determination, it's supposed to be skill building with an Airweight snub that you can do alone on the range.

I think defensive training should be somewhat realistic. Practice moving. Practice shooting from cover. Practice with more than one assailant. Practice shooting under stress.

All good things. Set it up and I'll come shoot it. Meanwhile, I'll shoot the TACSS Carrygun matches that address all those things.

 

[David E]

David,

Mav has suggested that Fred and Jamie are cheaters.

I have never seen or heard anyone say that Fred or Jamie cheat. What I have experienced personally is some people, when they get beaten by a better shooter, accuse the winner of somehow cheating. Apparently, it's easier to be beaten if you think the winner had to cheat to do it.

Also, would you comment on practicing w lower power cartridges?

I have found that even when practicing with low power (cheap) rounds it improves my shooting with more stout rounds. My theory is that practice is practice.

Any shooting, done correctly, will help build your skills. That said, it's usually best to train with full power loads so you learn/reinforce how to properly manage recoil.

The one exception that comes to mind is shooting full house Corbon .357's in a Scandium J-frame with compact wood grips.

 

[Guillermo]

Any shooting, done correctly, will help build your skills. That said, it's usually best to train with full power loads so you learn/reinforce how to properly manage recoil.

That was what I thought you would say.

it's easier to be beaten if you think the winner had to cheat to do it

Not with me. I look at more skilled people as inspiration.

I used to drive competitively and did very well until our club joined a national club and our events garnered points for the national championship.

I quickly saw that
A- I was not the Stig
B- I had more work to do

No longer play the car games but have consistently improved.

With shooting I have used folks better than me as inspiration as well.

I will never be Jerry Miculek or Bob Mundon but there is not a damned reason why I can't constantly improve.

 

[230therapy]

I have found that even when practicing with low power (cheap) rounds it improves my shooting with more stout rounds. My theory is that practice is practice.

The low power rounds allow you to practice your trigger control without the mental tension that causes flinching or other mistakes.

I will never be Jerry Miculek or Bob Mundon but there is not a damned reason why I can't constantly improve.

Shoot 50,000+ rounds per year with a strict training schedule and you could shoot at their level.