Don't like airweight snubs.

[Tony_the_tiger]

Andrew, I guess you have a point

 

[Kendal Black]

I like the Airweights myself, and for some uses even the Airlites may make sense. Smith & Wesson, though, will happy to sell you the all steel sort. They still make them because some people prefer them.

I've shot all three kinds. The heavier type bounces around less when you shoot it, as was explained by Mr. Newton (the apple tree guy, not the high velocity rifle guy).

Hmm... If you think about it, pistol makers are in business to accommodate differences of opinion.

 

[Guillermo]

I practice so that I can be as confident and proficient as possible with each of my chosen carry tools. Otherwise I would not carry them.

God Bless You

 

[mavracer]

Look, i get it. You really like your j-frame. That doesnt really warrant being surly with people who disagree.

No you really don't, I wouldn't have said anything if you said "I don't like J-Frames".

Air biscuit guns are for sissies. If you're to weak to hold a steel gun, your to weak to pull the trigger.

And yet much of the dislike comes from the recoil hurting "my wittle hands"

 

[Guillermo]

much of the dislike comes from the recoil hurting "my wittle hands"

my lack of affection is not pain but follow up shots.

most have not taken the time and effor to shoot like you do Mav. (including me)

if they did I would not look for cover when someone pulls out a light J frame

 

[David E]

Every now and then, I pick the right thread to stay out of.....

It seems that people confuse Bullseye marksmanship with defensive shooting. Being able to make tiny groups at a leisurely pace is far removed from the dynamics of a quickly unfolding defensive situation.

Hitting a 50 yd hostile target, while possible, isn't very likely to be necessary.

What is likely is a hostile target within 5 yds. It would behoove anyone carrying a gun for defense to attain an "adequate" level of proficiency, at least within that distance.

Trying to define "proficiency standards" is like herding cats, but it should include specifics (target, distance, acceptable group size and speed) as opposed to vague statements like "as fast as you can."

An Airweight is easier to carry, but some object to the kick. Some for the pain, others for the perceived lack of quick, accurate follow-up shots.

These things can be addressed with different stocks and/or technique, but I would never load .357's in a Scandium snubbie, as it hurt waaaay too much. To fix that, I'd have to put on rubber grips, making it too big for its intended role. I'd load it with +P .38 158 LSWCHP's and call it good.

The "5 in 5 at 5" is exceedingly generous. This thread is the first time I saw it was simply a starting point. Every other time I'd seen it, the poster seemed to be using it as the ultimate goal.

I like a sheet of typing paper at 10 feet, hand on holstered gun start, draw a fire 5 shots in 3 seconds. That allows a full second for the first shot (hand on gun start, remember) and relaxing 1/2 second for each follow-up shot.

It's a higher standard, but not especially difficult. If you don't think you can do it, I'd bet that you could after some serious practice and 50 rds.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

I think your standard is a good one, but I think 15 yards is a better distance.

 

[Guillermo]

It's a higher standard, but not especially difficult.

David...you have mentioned this before.

I had not spent a lot of time using a stopwatch, but reading your posts convinced me that the only way to improve was to measure.

I started with the "5, 5 , 5" that Old Fuff says is a good starting point. It was easy.

So I kept working on it. My minimum standard now to carry a gun is draw (unconcealed) and put six in a pie plate at 10 feet in 4 seconds or less.

At first I would ALWAYS have a flier or two. And the D frame I shoot seems to have a little longer trigger reset than a J frame. After a few tries I corrected my problem (if you draw with a bad grip it is better to correct it before shooting than shoot with an incorrect grip). 10, 6, 4 is not that hard if you get a good draw (the longest act). Once you are on target it is not difficult.

The bottom line is that I am better prepared than ever.

Thank you

 

[David E]

I think your standard is a good one, but I think 15 yards is a better distance.

Why? Most confrontations are 7 yds or less.

 

[fastbolt]

Yeah, some threads do seem to devolve into things best avoided, at times.

Anyway, I liked this part of what you wrote:

The "5 in 5 at 5" is exceedingly generous. This thread is the first time I saw it was simply a starting point. Every other time I'd seen it, the poster seemed to be using it as the ultimate goal.

I like a sheet of typing paper at 10 feet, hand on holstered gun start, draw a fire 5 shots in 3 seconds. That allows a full second for the first shot (hand on gun start, remember) and relaxing 1/2 second for each follow-up shot.

It's a higher standard, but not especially difficult. If you don't think you can do it, I'd bet that you could after some serious practice and 50 rds.

I always thought the 5/5/5 reference was a bit generous, myself, although not something easily attained without some time & effort invested on a range, and probably after some refinement in the way of revolver shooting techniques involving the diminutive wheelguns.

When I returned to frequently using and carrying an increasing assortment of J's, I decided it was time to really dust off my revolver skills and see what needed resharpening. Once I could do the 5/5/5 even on a bad day, cold, I decided that was a good starting point upon which to really build some defensive shooting skills.

I eventually felt that being able to do a 1-handed, 5-shot group from a waist-level shooting position, into the size of a fist, at 3 yards, in 3 seconds or less, was something I wanted to be able to do ... COLD ... on any day, ranging from best to worst. An arbitrary standard, perhaps, but one I thought appropriate for my needs.

At my best I was able to get 4 shots touching each other, and on my worst (after recovering from surgery & illness) I was able to hold it to an approx fist-sized grouping.

Moving the grouping to the specific area intended on a lightly outlined anatomical threat target each time took some further work, but doesn't it always? Changing the positioning of myself and changing the nature of the target's presentation helped keep me "flexible", to the degree safely permissible on the range. Anyway, the last time I had a chance to read about the results of one large state agency's review of officer-involved shootings which occurred over several years, it indicated that more than 60% of the instances involved movement on the part of both the involved officers and the suspects ... so, relying on a stationary target is probably overly optimistic.

I've also taken one of my J's, at random, and used it to consistently hit metal target plates (NOT 6" plates, but partial silhouettes, I suppose you could call them). Just to check my basics (grip, sights, trigger press). Ditto on going out to 35-60 yds on regular targets, just for a skills check from time to time.

I've watched a lot of folks qualify with snub nosed revolvers over the years. The Airweights and Airlites have been increasing in popularity, no doubt. I'd not want to go out on a limb, though, and imply that the additional refinement of revolver skillset needed for the little guns has been necessarily keeping pace with the resurgence of popularity.

Unfortunately, the age of the revolver shooter seems to be waning, and this is one of those times where I mention how much I lament not having LE shooters trained to shoot DA revolvers with odd grip stock shapes, long & heavy DA triggers, many of which were chambered in Magnum revolver calibers and having to aim to get hits with their limited number of rounds.

I had one of older shooters (my age group ) bring an old steel M36 to a qual course and ask me about upgrading to an Airweight. I asked him how well he could use the steel one, and offered to let him try one of my Airweights, with both standard and +P ammo. After realizing his revolver skills had degraded, even with his steel J using standard pressure loads, he was quite surprised by how much harder it was for him to use the Airweight.

We spent some time over 2-3 sessions where I did some one-on-one work with him, pretty much just revisiting his previous revolver training and refining it a bit for the smaller, lighter, harder-to-hold & shoot snub gun. Once I got him back to the point where he was able to get his grip working well, and where he was able to use the smaller & harder-to-see sight alignment/picture on the longer shots (for qual), and was able to do a consistently smooth trigger press (instead of trying to stage the trigger - which is never advised for defensive use) ... he rediscovered his revolver skills and really surprised himself by how well he could shoot the little gun.

We tried him with an Airweight again at that point, but he (wisely) decided that he ought to remain carrying the steel 36, at least for the time being.

Why? Because his confidence in being able to use it was justified.

Now, while I try to avoid getting involved in influencing which make/model/caliber someone chooses for an off-duty/retirement/CCW weapon, in his case I did make it apparent I felt he was better off, at least for a while ... meaning until he'd invested a lot more time in some range work with me ... in avoiding the Airweight/Airlite models. For now, that's a "breaking point" for him. Dunno how long that might remain the case, though, since it's really up to him.

I think he ought to do whatever it takes to perform at the level he feels necessary, for his needs, in his situation (and which meets qual standards, at a minimum).

Some folks like - and can effectively use - the lighter J's. Good for them.

Some don't like them, and some can't effectively use them as well as other guns. Both of these types of folks ought to be able to choose something else for themselves, right?

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread yet ... for those who haven't nodded off during my wordiness ... is how the dimintuive S&W 5-shot snub is often the personal off-duty weapon of choice, more often, for many experienced firearms instructors.

Sure, we all have other platforms we prefer when it comes to carrying something larger and capable of more easily achieved practical accuracy, power, capacity, etc ... but it's the little J-frame that often gets the nod when it comes time to drop something into a pocket holster, and we want that "something" to be reliable, not unduly affected by shooter grip issues or ammunition tolerance, and yet still possess a basic level of proven ballistic performance.

Of all the many LE instructors I've known over the years who chose to carry a J on their own time, when they just didn't feel like belting on a big gun after having done so while working, the preferences in the models has evolved quite a bit. Fortunately, S&W seems to make something for just about everybody. No more being limited to something in blue, nickel or stainless.

Maybe that's why it's their strongest selling revolver line?

The ammunition companies have certainly noticed this trend, since they've been improving their defensive ammunition offerings for the venerable .38 Spl cartridge, too.

Carry on folks. Choose what you like. I do.

Get the training and build the skillset. Realize the importance of mindset. Know the laws involving the use of deadly force in defense of self and others. Make sure you're in good enough physical condition to handle and shoot a gun. Then, practice frequently enough to keep your skills up.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Why? Most confrontations are 7 yds or less.

In my experience, when under stress, your ability to hit takes a nosedive. Train to a higher standard so you can do worse than your training and still be adequate for the job.

 

[David E]

I had not spent a lot of time using a stopwatch, but reading your posts convinced me that the only way to improve was to measure.

I hope you mean shot timer, but a stop watch is a good start. There is a shot timer app for iPhones, if you have one.

People ridicule using a shot timer, but it's essential for discovering many things about your shooting, much more than a stopwatch can tell you.

The bottom line is that I am better prepared than ever.

Thank you

I may have sparked the fire, but the credit goes to you for doing something about it. Kudos.

 

[Guillermo]

I hope you mean shot timer, but a stop watch is a good start

I don't always have access to a shot timer...when I don't a buddy with a stopwatch is what I have to use.

iPhone app!!!....goodbye stopwatch.

FYI, the guy I shoot with has a 3 inch airweight. His time with it is abysmal.
He did me a huge favor and I re-payed him with a pristine 3rd Generation Detective Special.

The larger grip has improved his shooting immensely.

 

[David E]

In my experience, when under stress, your ability to hit takes a nosedive. Train to a higher standard so you can do worse than your training and still be adequate for the job.

While I understand your reasoning, I presented this as MY baseline, not the ultimate goal.

The problem with repeatedly hitting a small target at distance is that you can't really do it fast. This is totally contrary to my view of personal defensive skills where "accurate enough" speed trumps pinpoint accuracy. Some may insist on hitting the second shirt button in, say, 3 seconds. Me, I'd take anything inside the nipples in 1.5 seconds or less.

Instead of increasing the distance, I'd prefer to shorten the time frame and tighten up the group size.

For example, a full IPSC target, fire a 5-shot fist size group somewhere in the A zone in 2 seconds or less.

THEN increase the distance until you can do it at 5 yds, then 7 yds, then....

 

[Guillermo]

I'd prefer to shorten the time frame and tighten up the group size.

I concur

The closer the threat, the more likely that speed is an asset.

Most urban confrontations occur at 5 feet.

 

[mavracer]

Why? Most confrontations are 7 yds or less.

Andrew has a good point I'd add why train to be average?

So I kept working on it. My minimum standard now to carry a gun is draw (unconcealed) and put six in a pie plate at 10 feet in 4 seconds or less.

Don't quit working

I think he ought to do whatever it takes to perform at the level he feels necessary, for his needs, in his situation (and which meets qual standards, at a minimum).

As much as I'd like all the good guys in the world to shoot like a pro, I don't agree with a universal minimum standard. The standard should be left up to the individule as ultimatly we're all responsible for our own actions. If I take a shot that beyond my own known capabilitys and cause collareral damage I should be held accountable. Alternativly if LEOs don't have a responsability to protect anyone why should I be held accountable for holding fire.

For example, a full IPSC target, fire a 5-shot fist size group somewhere in the A zone in 2 seconds or less.

THEN increase the distance until you can do it at 5 yds, then 7 yds, then....

If I start with the target at 25yards and work on speed and you start at 2 seconds and work your way out will it matter if we both end up at 25 yards with 5 A zone hits in 2 sec.

 

[heeler]

Well I'm back to square one with this Smith Airweight J frame.
I took my model 37 along with a brand new Kel Tec P 32 to shoot this afternoon.
Since the P32,a caliber and pistol I have never owned or for that matter shot was first up in battery.
At 10 feet I kept ever shot(7) in a five inch circle COM.
After two more magazines I grabbed the Smith and loaded 5 rounds of 130 grain UMC fmj into it and as usual found I was shooting the damn thing at least a foot high.....Sigh...
After twenty rounds the fierce recoil had nicked and bloodied my index finger and I put it away and started back on the KelTec.
I fired the last two magazines at 21 feet(7 yards) and could still keep the little Shetland pony of a pistol shots in an six inch circle.
Tried another go with the J frame.
After the first two shots that was waaay off and my index finger smarting I gave up.
Why is it so hard to shoot these things??
I am not asking this to be an an antagonist in the thread but why can I take my two micro 380's and now this new P 32 and shoot the J frame out of the water??
What's the secret here???

 

[David E]

Andrew has a good point I'd add why train to be average?

Who suggested that? See my follow-up.

The standard should be left up to the individual.

It already is. The problem is you have a lot of delusional people thinking they're far better than they are, such as my friend who confidently stated he was good enough to "blow a man in 1/2" with his BHP. But he didn't know the slide stop from the safety.

If I start with the target at 25yards and work on speed and you start at 2 seconds and work your way out will it matter if we both end up at 25 yards with 5 A zone hits in 2 sec.

I'm glad you brought that up. First, it presumes we will both get there. If so, I'd attain the skill sooner. The longer answer is my speed at 5 feet would be faster than 2 seconds. To expound further, my groups would be tighter than simply "A zone," especially at the closer distances. Plus, starting closer, I'm going to have a series of successes before you ever have one. And what if neither of us can get 5 shots in the "A" zone at 25 yds, what then? In your case, you're frustrated, never having reached your single goal. Me, I take comfort in the fact that I CAN meet that standard at 20 yds and closer.

I see people say all the time, "if I get good at 25 yds, then I can also do anything closer without practicing it." If all they do is slowfire, I'd agree, but I'm talking speedy hits at defensive ranges with a gun that's difficult to shoot well.

 

[David E]

After twenty rounds the fierce recoil had nicked and bloodied my index finger...
Why is it so hard to shoot these things??

What's the secret here???

Bloodied your index finger? On the support hand?

Maybe take a pic of the gun and how you're holding it.

 

[heeler]

The trigger finger.

 

[amd6547]

God...I wonder how people defended themselves with handguns before the pontifications of the Internet.

 

[PRM]

Nine (9) pages and counting... Gotta love the internet

 

[David E]

Heeled, pm me a pic and describe your technique.

Heaven forbid I should pontificate online about it.......

 

[mavracer]

I'm glad you brought that up.

no problem and I'm glad you responded in typical speed first fasion

First, it presumes we will both get there.

Don't worry been there done that got the T-shirt and moved to 50 yards.

If so, I'd attain the skill sooner.

not so sure. See I worked on the fundamentals of sight picture and proper quick suprise break trigger pull then obtaining sight picture quickly.

The longer answer is my speed at 5 feet would be faster than 2 seconds.

As would mine since I'm working on quickly obtaining a sight picture from the holster and from a low ready my mucsle memory is being trained to bring the gun into view with the sights in near perfect alignment so at 5 feet the gun naturally flashes on target where my eyes are trained.

To expound further, my groups would be tighter than simply "A zone," especially at the closer distances.

mine will too probably not as drastic of difference between 5 fee and 25 yards as your 25 yard groups will be much larger to start with.

Plus, starting closer, I'm going to have a series of successes before you ever have one. And what if neither of us can get 5 shots in the "A" zone at 25 yds, what then? In your case, you're frustrated, never having reached your single goal.

here's where I know your in uncharted terratory for your skill level.
sure starting close allows you to see hits on paper but as you move out you will hit a wall so to say (usually about 15-20 yards) when you need the fundamentals of a sight picture and trigger control. now your having trouble with inconsistant hits and are going to have to either learn proper use of the sight and trigger control. which is a problem now compounded but the bad habits you'll have to break. or you'll do what I always hear and

take comfort in the fact that I CAN meet that standard at 20 yds and closer.

is good enough because

Most confrontations are 7 yds or less.

 

[mark1616]

God...I wonder how people defended themselves with handguns before the pontifications of the Internet.

Heh heh heh