Don't like airweight snubs.

[230therapy]

Whose standard? Nice size group to shoot for at 15 and 25 yards. But who set that as a standard and for what?

I am not talking about sport shooting or arbitrary standards set by some organization to satisfy some administrative criteria.

Four inches is based upon human anatomy.

It gets you a solid hit from the front, side and back of the chest. It also happens to more or less work for the ocular window and side of head. If you can do less on demand, then you'll be able to do 4" under stress.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it, however, what I find questionable is someone who expects everyone else to be at their same skill level, have the same values, or think in their terms, and if others do not, they are labeled as lazy and have contempt directed at them??? Real dang highroad there.

I stand by my "non-high road" statements about the laziness of the average person carrying for self-defense purposes. People proved it to me almost daily. I ran a private range for two years and getting people to pay for serious training was extremely difficult. Advertising had a very, very low rate of return. I could expect a maximum of two sign-ups (on a good day) on the open "tactical" range days I hosted. I would have been ecstatic had I been able to get 10% of the attendees to sign-up for courses. In short, the vast majority of people refuse to attend a course that will prepare them for a real life encounter and help them stay out of prison.

I expect people to be responsible with their liberty. I expect them to work hard at proficiency. This is essential in life or death situations. It is irresponsible to send rounds down range in an uncontrolled way when the shooter had every opportunity to develop the skills necessary to avoid doing so.

How in the world can you possibly argue with that?

 

[mavracer]

if you had the ability to read I was speaking of the people at the range where I go.

If that's what you wanted to say it should have read.

"At the range I go to the regularly, the competent J frame shot is rare, the one that can shoot a scandium well is exceptionally rare and the one that can shoot a scandium j frame .357 is a unicorn."

Maybe you should take an english comp 101 course.

 

[Guillermo]

Too bad this didn't clear it up for you

I never said that it can't be done. I am quite sure that David E can do so. Jerry Michulek surely can. If you are not a liar, you can.

Reading this as well as the pocket carry thread I see that your ability to communicate is severely limited.

I mean really.... you took "I shoot my Colt Cobra well enough for me to say that I am proficient I am better with my Diamondback snub" to mean "your not proficient enough with it to feel comfortable carrying it"

You have a lot to offer a forum like this if you would learn to read.

I certainly hope that you do. Your opinion, when not skewed by misunderstanding, is usually worthy of consideration.

 

[bdb benzino]

I will admit that after reading some posters point of veiw about people packing Airweights and not practicing enough, that I took slight offense to it. I do carry a number of pistols, but Airweights are definitely one of my favorites.
So instead of getting my panties in a wad, I went out to the farm to see how I have held up being that I have not practiced with them for a while. I have been into my 1911's this summer and have neglected to stay fresh with my light snub.

I will say that this thread has opened my eyes a little, as at 20 yards or more I was not near as good as I was last spring when I was staying proficient with my S&W 638 and 642. At 10 yards I did good, but its good I learned my limitations, and that I need to practice more for the chance a longer accurate shot may be needed.
This will not stop me from carrying them, and I believe on most cases 10 yards and under will be the case. But it sure did open my eyes that I need to practice more often to stay accurate at longer distances. It's amazing how fast your skills can dull when you use several different pistols.

 

[PRM]

I am not talking about sport shooting or arbitrary standards set by some organization to satisfy some administrative criteria.

Four inches is based upon human anatomy.

So it's a personal standard based on opinion. Nothing wrong with that ~ just was curious about the source.

People proved it to me almost daily. I ran a private range for two years and getting people to pay for serious training was extremely difficult.

Who developed this "serious training?" I've seen a lot of programs go and come over the years. I am still not ready to concede that the average shooter is lazy, just because they decide a particular program is not what they want to spend their money on.

 

[Guillermo]

It's amazing how fast your skills can dull when you use several different pistols

bdb

my hat is off to you for your honesty and willingness to put it out there as an example to others.

My Achilles heal is not putting new guns through enough rounds. Even if it is exactly like another gun, I should put 300 through it before I trust it. (but I digress)

I too shoot a lot of different guns...which may not be smart. But I always practice with my primary carry every trip to the range.

If you put as little as a box through your J frame after a 1911 session you might be surprised at how your skill stays high with the little beast.

 

[bdb benzino]

Besides practicing more, I think I'm going to try to carry my S&W model 12 more as it is way easier to shoot accurately. I may also seek out a quality holster for my model 19 as it is even easier yet.
Guillermo,
All your praise for you Colt Diamondback has me looking at one at my LGS, although he is asking $699 for it. Is that about right for the price in good shape?

 

[mavracer]

something I found to help a lot with learning and maintaining skill with a airweight snub is Crimson Trace grips. A few minutes a couple times a week of dry firing while trying to keep the laser trained on a light switch will tune your muscle memory so that only the trigger finger moves. If you don't want to drop the $ on CTs get a $5 flee market laser pointer and some tape.
Another big plus is all that dry firing my trigger is buttery smooth.

 

[Guillermo]

BDB,

While I love my DB's they are not for everyone. My snubs are easy to shoot accurately (although training is required as it seems that the trigger reset is a little longer than a J-frame).

700 is a really good price if it checks out (for a snub...still pretty good for a 4 inch). Be VERY careful about the lockup and timing. But please understand, an older Smith performs just as well and if something breaks, which will eventually happen, much easier to fix.

Also note that the trigger is the exact opposite of a Smith. An S&W will "load" at the front where the Colt will "stack". Personally I like the "help" when prestaging the action but the transition is not easy between the two.

So while I am not trying to talk you out of it, but please understand that the DB is a horse of a different color.

Try to shoot the DB before you buy it and make sure that it is for you.

Another thing to note is that it is hard to find leather for a DB. I have mine custom made by a local fellow (Cotton's Custom Leatherworks). If you decide to buy the DB let me know and I will be glad to coordinate dropping one of mine off to Cotton so that he can use it to make you a holster.

http://www.tex45.com/

 

[Onward Allusion]

230therapy
<SNIP>I expect people to be responsible with their liberty. I expect them to work hard at proficiency. This is essential in life or death situations. It is irresponsible to send rounds down range in an uncontrolled way when the shooter had every opportunity to develop the skills necessary to avoid doing so.

How in the world can you possibly argue with that?

As a broad statement, I can't argue with you. However, maybe I misunderstood, but I got the distinct impression that you think everyone who carries a snub regularly should be able to hit a pie plate at 25 yards with said snub.

Like I had mentioned earlier, I consider myself to be an "OK" shot. Lots of people better than me and lots of people worst than me when it comes to shooting. Me, I can only hit a pie plate about 50% to 75% of the time from 25 yards with a snub - AT THE RANGE. However, with my Model 66 it's 90%+.

Does that mean I should not be entitled to protect myself with a snub because I'm crappy with a snub? What about all those people out there carrying a .38 Spl snub who are challenged to hit a target at 10 yards? Maybe they should just forgo personal defense until they get their skills up to snuff? I carry a Kel Tec P32 and a NAA Mini, should I be able to hit a pie plate at 25 yards? This is where your logic doesn't make sense. Sure, practice and stay proficient but to call people lazy if they don't practice to the level of your skills is . . . .interesting.

 

[Guillermo]

that you think everyone who carries a snub regularly should be able to hit a pie plate at 25 yards with said snub.

Old Fuff has said (hopefully I am not misquoting him) that everyone should at minimum be able to put five in a pie plate at 5 feet in five seconds.

personally I think that is generous. When I mentioned this to him he said "it is a starting point...not an end goal"

My personal threshold for proficiency is 6 shots at 10 feet in under 4 seconds. I prefer to be able to draw and do so. This is not that tough. Folks like David E can do that easily.

While those numbers will not win any gun games, I think that they are sufficient to call yourself proficient with a small handgun.

YMMV

 

[antiquus]

I have to agree with Onward, people have a right to self-defense in any manner they are capable of, using whatever they deem correct, to the best of their abilities, training and time. My opinion, your opinion, Wayne Lapierre's opinion have no bearing on their personal freedom, however wrongheaded their efforts seem to someone else.

Their are huge reasons to use a snubbie that have nothing to do with pie plates. Reasons my wife carries one are: ability to reliably shoot from a coat pocket or in a purse, the lack of a long barrel to grab for a disarm, no slide to foul on clothing and jam, misfires are cured by another trigger pull. This is the strength of the snubbie - up close and personal it is the best gun without exception for desperate situations.

It will perform as well as any gun to 10 feet, with care to 25 feet, with practice to 150 ft. I can stay in the 6 ring at 50 yards with my 2½ snubbie, good enough to hit a man sized target and frankly I am very mediocre at the range. It isn't hard to do and doesn't take more than 50 rounds to accomplish.

Snubbies are not inherently inaccurate, that's been totally debunked. If you must have great accuracy but can't seem to make it point right, lasers are a cheap fix.

 

[PRM]

Been carrying J Frames since 1977. My current is a model 60-9 and a Model 649.

I've never had a problem with accuracy, and I don't think I'm an anomaly. I have small hands and the factory grips fit me well. A lot of the accuracy with any handgun is having one that fits the shooter. I can see where individuals with large hands would have difficulty with the standard grips. Great thing about revolvers is that you have unlimited options.

I do agree with all posts on practice ~ goes with any gun. I'm not a fanatic, but do think one should do as much as time and funds allow. Besides that, its fun!!!

I'd love to have one of the light weights, but just can't justify it without giving up one of my old tried and true (not gonna happen).

 

[AZ Desertrat]

No...I dont like the airweights....got rid of the last one I had...Taurus 85 UL....way too light to handle any power loads....I went back to using my S&W M36 Chiefs Special....all steel....no problem to shoot Buffalo Bores out of it.

 

[mavracer]

An S&W will "load" at the front where the Colt will "stack". Personally I like the "help" when prestaging the action but the transition is not easy between the two.

Working with a laser pointer or CTs will help a lot with transitioning back and forth I shoot Colts, Smiths and Rugers pretty much the same

I have to agree with Onward, people have a right to self-defense in any manner they are capable of, using whatever they deem correct, to the best of their abilities, training and time.

Absolutly. The responsability comes in that you are responsable for your actions. If you don't win because you didn't practice enough you have nobody to blame. If you hit a bystander your probably gonna get prosicuted at the very least your gonna live with guilt.

 

[antiquus]

That's the essence of freedom, and includes the freedom to screw it up totally.

 

[JoeShmoe]

Old Fuff has said (hopefully I am not misquoting him) that everyone should at minimum be able to put five in a pie plate at 5 feet in five seconds.

personally I think that is generous. When I mentioned this to him he said "it is a starting point...not an end goal"

My personal threshold for proficiency is 6 shots at 10 feet in under 4 seconds. I prefer to be able to draw and do so. This is not that tough. Folks like David E can do that easily.

While those numbers will not win any gun games, I think that they are sufficient to call yourself proficient with a small handgun.

YMMV

6? That would be tough to do with a J-Frame.

 

[Guillermo]

people have a right to self-defense in any manner they are capable of

I agree.

That said, with rights come responsibility. I believe that we have a responsibility to minimize collateral damage which means shooting well and knowing when to shoot.

6? That would be tough to do with a J-Frame

True...I own no J frames...I am a D frame Colt guy.

But I bet David E could do it

 

[oldfool]

must be moon phase for lightweight, convenient carry, pocket carry month
HOT HOT topics, despite the cooling weather

[I]"getting people to pay for serious training was extremely difficult."[/I]

Yes indeed, it no doubt was, and still is. Yes indeed, that does seem to be a motivating factor driving (in at least some part) the opinions being posted by some in these several topics, although not all are always as openly forthright about it.

Yes indeed, we all ought practice more, and that includes the entire range of shooters, encompassing from-me-to-miculek. But whether or not you choose to pay for training, that is far more about lifestyle choices, discretionary time and financial resource, other interests and obligations.

I have never warmed up to the notion that politicians and legislators ought decide what's best for me, because they know better than I do what's best for me, they being law experts. That includes manufactured litmus tests and fees for owning and carrying a firearm.

So I guess I will just never warm up to the notions espoused by some, whose entire life and/or financial self interests just might (?) revolve around firearms; "Thou shalt do as I do, lest ye be judged incompetent, lazy, and irresponsible.... by me".

Obey the law, make your own choices based on your own lifestyle, buy what you like, don't buy what you don't like, practice as much as you are willing to, practice how you want to, carry it however it suits you, be safe, and always mind your backdrop.

It's called freedom, liberty, choice, and it's great.
Nobody ever said it was risk free.

 

[Guillermo]

Obey the law, make your own choices based on your own lifestyle, buy what you like, don't buy what you don't like, practice as much as you are willing to, practice how you want to, carry it however it suits you, be safe, and always mind your backdrop

OF,

This sounds good but with rights come responsibility. I opine that we have the responsibility to minimize collateral damage if the flag goes up.

You may have the right to carry a Lahti anti tank gun but blazing away with it to stop a purse snatcher running down a city street is a bad idea. (even in Detroit )

 

[Slamfire]

I like Airweights



I prefer the hammerless models. It is far better to have the thing with you, and you are more likely to carry the smaller lighter package than the bigger heavier one.

These little snubbies are amazingly accurate if you can hold them.

But who needs target accuracy when spitting distance is the extreme range for most encounters?

 

[mavracer]

6? That would be tough to do with a J-Frame.

Depends on which J frame my model 34-1 makes it easy.

 

[RetDep310]

AMEN to oldfool.....can't we all just get along?

Oh, and BTW, I love my M&P340!!!

 

[SwampWolf]

230therapy


Quote:
Is a bad guy's bullet deadly at 25 yards? Are bullets capable of flying 25 yards? Is the good guy under threat of maiming or bodily harm?

All of the above are a "it depends scenario". I'm talking generalities. If a BG is 25 yards away, it would not be prudent to use 1 or more of your 5 shots at that distance. Sure, one may be able to get a pie plate at 50 yards at the range, but let me tell you it is unlikely to happen in a real world situation for most people. maybe you and AMD are the exception but most people can't when their heart is racing. Can it happen, sure, but unlikely with most shooters. If one is not under a direct threat at 25 yards, get the hell out of the situation.

And if you can't "get the hell out of the situation" (a not unplausable scenario), what then? You find yourself in a "real world situation", heart racing, adrenaline pumping, whether you like it or not. What then? You don't shoot to save yourself or someone else from being killed (the only reason to be involved in a gunfight to start with) because all you are armed with is a snub-nosed revolver? That pie plate at 25 yards you talk about that you can hit only 50 to 75 per cent of the time with a snubbie? I'm not that great of a shot but I can hit it regularly 90 to 100 per cent of the time with a snub nose revolver. Guaranteed. Lots of practice can make you a lot more proficient than you give yourself credit for.

 

[sm]

Originally Posted by Guillermo View Post
Old Fuff has said (hopefully I am not misquoting him) that everyone should at minimum be able to put five in a pie plate at 5 feet in five seconds.

personally I think that is generous. When I mentioned this to him he said "it is a starting point...not an end goal"

My personal threshold for proficiency is 6 shots at 10 feet in under 4 seconds. I prefer to be able to draw and do so. This is not that tough. Folks like David E can do that easily.

While those numbers will not win any gun games, I think that they are sufficient to call yourself proficient with a small handgun.

YMMV

I believe it was Hackathorn whom came up with shooting five rounds at five yards.
I come up doing this with Mentors.

This was to determine what gun, and with what loads a shooter was good with.

-Take a piece of typing paper, fold in half, then halve again.
-Five rounds ( no matter the capacity of handgun)
-Shoot five rounds as quickly and effectively as one can.

The paper don't lie. It will reveal what platform, what caliber, one shoots best "at that time".

Meaning for instance, one that might have done well with .357 loads, may find with age, arthritis, or whatever, using .38spl affords them the "best" loading for them now.

This is what I and others did with new shooters, trying a variety of firearms to see what "fit them best" for CCW.