Don't like airweight snubs.

[oldfool]

"with rights come responsibility."

Amen to that !
Never said different, and that applies to all aspects of life, not just firearms.

But, no worries matey; though not myself overly fond of "too small & light" (whatever that is), strive as I might, I just never could find a good CCW holster for a Lahti anti tank gun, and the recoil on 'em slows my splits speed a bit too much anyway, not to even mention my fast draw.

There are some, however, who would mandate numerous additional restrictions on the "privilege" of CCW issue, including certified professional skill shooting instruction requirements... and methinks I just might know who they think the "certified professional" ought to be.

We are truly blessed to have numerous members here with a high level of skill in the speed shooting sports, experience in training both as teachers and pupils, and experience in law enforcement. They all bring added value to this forum in numerous ways. But one shoe does not fit all, be it choice of hardware, or choice of lifestyle.

Some, like fastbolt (and like many of our moderators here in particular), bring all that to the table without ever feeling the need to belittle and insult others who do not fit their own chosen personal preferences criteria or "shoe size".

 

[PabloJ]

Am I the only one who really doesn't care for the new airweight smith and wesson snub nose revolvers. I've always thought they were just too light. I have a smith and wesson model. 60 made in the late 70s and it has some weight to it but its not like its pulling your pants down when you carry it. Its heavy enough to obsorb some recoil and light enough to carry comfortably. I just never got the practical use of having something thats as light as the airweights are, does anyone else agree

My 2" six-shot Model 12-2 seems about perfect to me. I feel bad for you.

 

[Guillermo]

Old Fool,

I think if you look back I have never insulted those that do not carry what I do. Heck, I halfway tried to talk one fellow OUT of carrying what I do.

What I do have a problem with is folks that can't shoot what they carry. And airweights are not easy to shoot well.


It it their RIGHT to carry a 454 Casull derringer made of titanium with no handle...clenching it in their butt cheeks.

But if they can't shoot it...they are not living up to their responsibility.

Mav demonstrated that he can put 4 on target at 30 feet in short order. Ok...good shooting...carry on (pun intended)

But spray and pray is not a strategy.

 

[mavracer]

It it their RIGHT to carry a 454 Casull derringer made of titanium with no handle...sure.

But if they can't shoot it...they are not living up to their responsibility.

The OP singled out airweight and compaired it to a all steel J model 60. So recoil while greater should not effect ones ability to shoot it. He's not really talking about larger guns with target sights, as in the case of your Cobra and your Diamondback. Tell me how much better you shoot a Detective Special than your Cobra? unless the Cobra is just too painful to shoot for some reason they're shouldn't be much difference.

Mav demonstrated that he can put 4 on target at 30 feet in short order. Ok...good shooting...carry on

look again there's 5 there.

 

[Guillermo]

Tell me how much better you shoot a Detective Special than your Cobra?

never did a side by side comparison, but there is a difference, for sure.

When I got the Cobra I practiced with it a LOT to ensure that I could shoot it well.



All I am saying is that we all should be able to shoot what we carry fast an accuratly. It is our responsibility to do so.

I am also saying that the lighter the gun, the harder it is to shoot well. I rarely see anyone who is competent with a J frame. I am quite sure that David E can shoot a gnats ass with a scandium 642 at 100 yards using a dental mirror to aim over his shoulder. Mav is also fast and accurate. I trust that those guys are not going to spray and pray but rather be deadly accurate if they ever pull their guns in anger. (although I hope it is not ever put to the test)

But lets face it, guys like Mav are the exception, not the rule.

 

[PRM]

Well ~ just so you can say you've seen it.

Bob Munden's 200 yard shot with a J Frame.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tied-t1fFsk

I can't do this and personally don't know of anyone else who can. But its fun to watch.

 

[Tony_the_tiger]

A j-frame and a speed strip isn't really what i'd consider armed

 

[antiquus]

But spray and pray is not a strategy.

Of course not, this is the revolver forum, we are supposed to be able to shoot. You must have us confused with the bottomfeeder forum...

 

[Guillermo]

we are supposed to be able to shoot

that is my point.

many of us carry guns for convenience and can not shoot them well.

I see it with disturbing regularity

 

[mavracer]

All I am saying is that we all should be able to shoot what we carry fast an accuratly. It is our responsibility to do so.

I am also saying that the lighter the gun, the harder it is to shoot well. I rarely see anyone who is competent with a J frame.

That's a slippery slope you've placed yourself on. your very correct a ~2" snub is a tough gun to master. I rarely see people who are competent with a SP101 which is a damn sight heavier than a 442/642 (BTW neither are scandium). If your litmus test is a pie plate at 10 feet you are barely even starting to get competent in my book so have you fulfilled your responsibility?
Maybe your responibility should be to just know what your abilitys are with what you carry and stay within your ability?

Also as I've tried to point out if you would actually push that plate out to 10-15 yards and get 6 on consistant with the DB you'll find it's really not that much tougher with the Cobra.

A j-frame and a speed strip isn't really what i'd consider armed

Tony you have to remember he can't shoot a J frame worth a dang.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Guillermo
<SNIP>But spray and pray is not a strategy.

I don't think anyone advocated "spray and pray", especially with a 5 shot snub. Folks who carry/own/shoot comes in all sizes, sexes, and skill. Some people practice a lot and they can use a 2" revolver to land tight groups at 25 yards - at the range. Most people can't. I go to both indoor and outdoor ranges often and I can squarely state that while most people will hit the black at 5, 7, & 10 yards they can't hold tight groups beyond that with any handgun. 25 yards for them is really pushing it, and it would be foolhardy for them to do in a real world bad situation. People do what they can or care to do. Some will go to the range multiple times a week and some will go a few times a year. It cost money and time to get proficient. Many people have challenges with one or both. Everyone here has to realize that this is a gun forum and those here are usually better shooters than "regular" people.

BTW, how many of all y'all have been in a real gunfight? Believe me when I say that it is quite a bit different than the range where you take your time, breathe, aim, and pull the trigger. The news stories that talk about emptying dozens of rounds and no one was hit have validity.

BTW, J-Frames, Airlights, UltraLites...etc all have a place in SD. I just don't happen to carry one.

 

[Onward Allusion]

SwampWolf
And if you can't "get the hell out of the situation" (a not unplausable scenario), what then? You find yourself in a "real world situation", heart racing, adrenaline pumping, whether you like it or not. What then? You don't shoot to save yourself or someone else from being killed (the only reason to be involved in a gunfight to start with) because all you are armed with is a snub-nosed revolver? That pie plate at 25 yards you talk about that you can hit only 50 to 75 per cent of the time with a snubbie? I'm not that great of a shot but I can hit it regularly 90 to 100 per cent of the time with a snub nose revolver. Guaranteed. Lots of practice can make you a lot more proficient than you give yourself credit for.

Did anyone say not to shoot to save your own life if you can't get out of the situation??? I'm glad you can hit that pie plate with 90%+ accuracy. But that's you - not me.

Let me pose this question. At 25 yards away, would you really use 1 of your 5 rounds or would you wait for a better opportunity and seek cover?

I don't like snubs in general and I don't practice much with one. If I had to use one, it would be up close and personal. Does that mean I don't do well with my other guns? Hardly.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

That's a slippery slope you've placed yourself on. your very correct a ~2" snub is a tough gun to master. I rarely see people who are competent with a SP101 which is a damn sight heavier than a 442/642 (BTW neither are scandium). If your litmus test is a pie plate at 10 feet you are barely even starting to get competent in my book so have you fulfilled your responsibility?
Maybe your responibility should be to just know what your abilitys are with what you carry and stay within your ability?

Also as I've tried to point out if you would actually push that plate out to 10-15 yards and get 6 on consistant with the DB you'll find it's really not that much tougher with the Cobra.


Tony you have to remember he can't shoot a J frame worth a dang.

You were making a lot of sense untill you started making judgements based on no information.


My point, and it's been consistent through this entire exercise, is that J-frames are hard to shoot, and the pocket 9mm handguns, like the PM9, and the ruger LCP are easier to make hits with. A J-frame can go good things if you have enough skill, but that's despite the J-frame being a less than ideal tool for the job.

If you pick something more appropriate to the circumstances, with greater sight radius, and better trigger, you will do better.

 

[mavracer]

You were making a lot of sense untill you started making judgements based on no information.

All the information I need is right here and in most of your other posts.

My point, and it's been consistent through this entire exercise, is that J-frames are hard to shoot, and the pocket 9mm handguns, like the PM9, and the ruger LCP are easier to make hits with. A J-frame can go good things if you have enough skill, but that's despite the J-frame being a less than ideal tool for the job.

It doesn't matter how many times you say it but that statement is not universally true. I have no harder time making hits with my 442 than my LC9 ( which BTW I hope you meant and not a LCP .380) or any other of my pocket and small IWB guns.

If you pick something more appropriate to the circumstances, with greater sight radius, and better trigger, you will do better.

I'm thinkin I do just fine
But if you learn to line up the sights proper and learn proper trigger control, You'll do better and maybe quit blaming the machine for operator error.

 

[PRM]

But if you learn to line up the sights proper and learn proper trigger control, You'll do better and maybe quit blaming the machine for operator error.

Yep, what he said. Lot of truth and few words. Well stated.

 

[Guillermo]

I don't think anyone advocated "spray and pray", especially with a 5 shot snub

I concur...I don't anyone advocated it. But based on my observation, most folks that I see shoot their ultralight and titanium J Frames are relegated to doing just that.

Certainly we would like to think that we THR folks are a cut above the average shooter...and many are. (I can't outshoot Mav)

But in my experience, few are willing to put in the time to shoot a small, light snub well.

And it I opine that it is out responsibility to shoot out carry guns well.

 

[HexHead]

I and a 442 which I carried a lot and shot as little as possible. I ended up trading it for a S&W Model 1917. Ended up getting another snubby, but a Colt Detective Special. I love it.

 

[Tony_the_tiger]

the pocket 9mm handguns, like the PM9, and the ruger LCP are easier to make hits with.

I think you might belong in the autoloader forum

Although any firearm can malfunction, I'd trust my life to the reliability of a revolver over a semi-automatic pistol any day.

What really matter is awareness, proficiency, and preparedness. Bullet on target, or the presentation of a weapon that ends the situation before shots are even fired. Usually, the perp won't know if it was a .380 or a .38 special + p that just made their day.

But ...when that LCP stovepipes you won't have any other option but to click your rings together and hope captain planet saves your butt in time!

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

But if you learn to line up the sights proper and learn proper trigger control, You'll do better and maybe quit blaming the machine for operator error.

Look, i get it. You really like your j-frame. That doesnt really warrant being surly with people who disagree.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

But ...when that LCP stovepipes you won't have any other option but to click your rings together and hope captain planet saves your butt in time!

Or i could clear the malfunction and get back to shooting. malfunctions arent fight stoppers if you've spent the time to learn how to clear them. No disrespect meant to your malfunction clearing method, of course.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Gawd, I just re-read this thread... We are a touchy bunch when it comes to guns, skill sets, & personal values... Myself included. I'm going to take up knitting!

 

[Tony_the_tiger]

Hand-knit speedloader pouch? I'll take 2!

 

[skidder]

Air biscuit guns are for sissies. If you're to weak to hold a steel gun, your to weak to pull the trigger. There's a reason why they cost less.

Step up and buy a real gun, pot metal is for pots.

 

[Tony_the_tiger]

"hey, is that an all steel handgun in your pants, or are you just happy to see me? oh..."

 

[mark1616]

"Everyone should get off their high horses, the horsesh*t is starting to pile up."

The thing that made me competent with my 642 is the same thing that made me competent with my CM9. Practice.

I practice so that I can be as confident and proficient as possible with each of my chosen carry tools. Otherwise I would not carry them.

Air-weights aren't for everybody. In fact there is no one firearm that IS for everybody.