Don't you think Open Carry is safer than CC?

[TexasRifleman]

You are a target and that is not what you want to be.

No one has given the slightest bit of evidence to show that OC makes you a target, 4 pages after I asked for anything at all that would support that statement.

And? Nothing, not a single shred of evidence.

You are asking us to believe that the mere presence of a gun makes a cowardly criminal who usually chooses victims based on weakness to all of a sudden WANT to get into a firefight merely at the sight of a gun.

You do realize that's exactly what anti's say about the presence of guns don't you? That the mere sight of one makes people start shooting?

That has not turned out to be true of course, and the endless repeating of "open carry makes you a victim always" with NO evidence to support it is getting tiresome.

If an anti came here and posted that the mere presence of a gun would cause people to lose their minds and start shootingyou'd be all over him yet you are happy to say the exact same thing about open carry.

It simply makes no sense at all.

 

[NavyLCDR]

The "$50 street buy" doesn't exist for the most part.

Mayor Bloomberg says they are abundant! It's only the guns from free states like VA, though, that are $50. If you want a gun from NJ, NY, CA or MA it will cost you more....

 

[oldbanjo]

Common sense should tell you that you are a target and that makes it more dangerous for everybody. That gun will not protect you against a determined thief. The Police are trained and they carry more than a gun and they have to fight for their lives to keep their guns. But a bunch of wannabees won't loose there's. I didn't just get off a turnip truck. Get real.

 

[Mainsail]

You are asking us to believe that the mere presence of a gun makes a cowardly criminal who usually chooses victims based on weakness to all of a sudden WANT to get into a firefight merely at the sight of a gun.

Part of the problem is that honest people view dishonest people as though their lives have less value. They then extrapolate from that and make the leap that the dishonest people also value their lives less than the honest people do. I have long contended that the dishonest people, robbers, thieves, rapists, etc., have as strong a sense of self preservation as anyone else. That’s the error in thinking that leads one to make the assumption that there are robbers out there looking to throw themselves on a grenade so to speak. You can point out how silly it is, but they prefer ignorance.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Common sense should tell you that you are a target and that makes it more dangerous for everybody.

Common sense would tell you that bad guys don't want to get shot so they would walk away from someone wearing a gun and go find someone who looks like a victim.

Again and again I ask; since open carry is legal in many places, why don't you have news or police reports showing the kind of thing you say will happen? If it's "common sense" and "obvious" where are the police reports and news articles?

 

[Mainsail]

Common sense should tell you that you are a target and that makes it more dangerous for everybody. That gun will not protect you against a determined thief.

You should examine your definition of common sense. How often do you open carry? I did so daily for over four years in the most dangerous city in the Pacific Northwest. I saw, with my own eyes, my openly carried handgun deter a criminal away from me. He was certainly determined, had the intent, began his attack, and suddenly stopped. He threw his hands up as though I had drawn the gun (I hadn’t) and said, “Whoa!” then moved away quickly. Had I been carrying concealed I would have been a victim, and my CCd gun wouldn’t have been able to do a damn thing. Washington is a stand-your-ground state, but you cannot shoot someone for stealing your sunglasses off your face, especially if they’re walking away by the time you realize it’s happened and can draw.

Read The Open Carry Argument, it was written as a common sense approach to how I made the decision to carry openly. I put aside wild speculation and fantasy, and put forth my argument.

 

[oldbanjo]

I will read it . Someone finally said something that made some sense. I honesty do not ever plan to OC, I do think that CC is safer for everybody.

 

[Kleanbore]

Common sense should tell you that you are a target and that makes it more dangerous for everybody.

Common sense tells me that one or more perps planning on starting something will most likely be deterred if they know or suspect that I am armed...but that if they either cannot be dissuaded, or if they only learn after the onset of the action that I am armed, their knowlege that I am armed will put me in the gravest danger.

That gun will not protect you against a determined thief.

It sure can if I can get to it. However, if I am on a crowded sidewalk and am set upon by two or three strong-arm or armed robbers without warning, the gun becomes theirs. For that reason, I think that there are places where it is not safe to carry a gun openly.

The off duty officer cited by Mas Ayoob died because he walked in on a robbery in progress, and someone called out for him to do something. Had they known that there was likey an armed policeman or citizen present before starting anything, the perps most likely would have waited or gone elsewhere.

In the city council shooting I mentioned above in this string, the shooter (Cookie Thornton) was going to kill everyone he could no matter what--he was not about to be deterred. Therefore, he shot the only two armed persons present first. That they were patrolmen is irrelevant--except to the extent that he more readily saw that they represented a threat to them because of the visibility of their uniforms.

That shooting, like so many others, occurred in a gun free zone. I suggest that it would never have happened in Elmer Keith's home town.

The city attorney reportedly survived by throwing chairs at the murderer while he ran for his life. Had he been carrying and not detected by the shooter as being armed before he could draw and fire, he would have been a whole lot more effective.

Whether you are safer or less safe carrying openly depends on where you are and on what transpires. Actually, you could be quite safe even if unarmed--if you are surrounded by other citizens carrying openly. Those guys and gals won't be "targets" for anyone--according to my common sense.

If you are one person carrying openly? Well, you'll be fine, unless (1) you happen to walk in on an armed criminal action in progress with a number of perps involved; (2) you happen to be where someone is going to start shooting no matter what; or (3) you are in a crowd and several perps working together to get your gun are able to grab or knife you before you know what's happening.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Common sense should tell you that you are a target and that makes it more dangerous for everybody.

Oldbanjo,

The felons themselves say that common sense dictates that an armed target is just too much effort and they will move on.

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.1/gun-facts-5.1-screen.pdf

Page 31:

Fact: 60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.

Fact: Felons report that they avoid entering houses where people are at home because they fear being shot.

Fact: 59% of the burglaries in Britain, which has tough gun control laws, are “hot burglaries” which are burglaries committed while the home is occupied by the owner/renter. By contrast, the U.S., with more lenient gun control laws, has a “hot burglary” rate of only 13%.

Fact: A survey of felons revealed the following:
• 74% of felons agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."
• 57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."

The felons themselves say that they don't like getting shot at, and therefore avoid armed targets.

 

[oldbanjo]

I read the info on that site and a lot of it makes sense. It was very well thought out. I still prefer both OC & CC be allowed then all bases are covered. This page has better info than the rest of this thread. Thanks for showing me that forum, I'll be looking at it every day for more info.

 

[X-Rap]

Banjo, when I OC I pack my engraved nickle plated 1911 with the black and white Punisher Skull grips in an Ostrich hide holster.
Pitty the fool who messes with me


Seriously
do can you not agree with the concept that we should be able to do both and as individuals decide on what is right at the moment?

I see you do agree.

 

[oldbanjo]

Navylt Some of what you have written I have seen on TV. Stroter or something like that.

 

[oldbanjo]

I 100% agree with that. There are definitely times when you would be unsafe with OC and In my case I know of one place where I might would consider OC, When on my motorcycle. I always carry a SP101 in my belt/waist when on the motorcycle I also carry a Bond Arms Derringer w/410buck & 45 Long Colt in a right side shoulder holster.

 

[oldbanjo]

I don't like showing my guns, to anyone. I live next to a pond in a wooded area. This road is 4 miles long dirt and may have 6 people living on it. I shoot at home I have a 180yd target here. I carry my guns out the house in bags, no one has seen more than one or two. I don't walk good because of bad hip and knees so I run my three dogs with a motorcycle or a motor scooter every day. I keep in practice shooting turtles all summer long w/Gamo Pellet Rifle w/3x9 scope. Anyone wanting OC should push for both not only OC, there are many advantages to having both. There are too many disadvantages to having one only. Some of what has been written on this thread should never have been written. People with CC are not wanting to kill people no more than OC. supporters are. If everybody sticks together everybody wins, fighting no body wins.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Some of what has been written on this thread should never have been written. People with CC are not wanting to kill people no more than OC. supporters are.

That was actually written as a retort.


Mainsail wrote this:

Concealed carry is for people who hope to shoot people, murderers really. They hope to surprise someone so they can kill them. They like to shoot kids. Bank robbers always carry concealed to surprise the tellers, so concealed carry folks are all bank robbers.

To demonstrate how ignorant this is:

Open carry is for show offs. Foolish show offs.

As evidenced by Mainsail's following statement:

It’s just as stupid the other way around.

There are times when open carry is more advantageous, and there are times when concealed carry is more advantageous. The smart person will choose the method that is most advantageous at any given time/circumstance/place and not limit themselves to one particular method 100% of the time - UNLESS they are required to do so by law. Nobody with intelligence can say that one method or the other is better 100% of the time, but many people without intelligent reasoning ability can certainly try.

 

[oldbanjo]

That was very good, This State has a nice law for hunters and fisherman (There iare no SCDNR restrictions on transporting firearms by licensed hunters and fisherman in a vehicle or on foot to and from a place of hunting and fishing.) That has been my CWP for 30 yrs. I always carry hunting and fishing license and collapsible fishing rod and reel w/my MD36 in a shoulder holster. I keep tackle in a plastic bag. I use this law today when carrying my Moss 500 loaded in reach.

 

[stickhauler]

Let's just use as a "for instance" a recent concealed carry holder using his concealed carry firearm to shoot 2 of his attackers and possibly wound the third in defense. It happened in Charlotte, NC and he's a delivery driver for Pizza Hut. He took a pistol whipping and beating at the hands of his attackers, and only used his concealed carry firearm when one of his attackers tried to pull up his shirt, which he knew would allow the bad guy to see the firearm. He felt at that point the bad guys were going to kill him and his store manager, he pulled his firearm and shot.

What would the bad guys reaction have been had they entered the store and saw him carrying openly? Since I'd say we would all agree, a robber likely is going to come in with guns drawn, ready to go, he's likely have been dropped immediately upon the robbers entering the store.

I live in a fairly urban area of Ohio now, Dayton, Ohio. I can assure you, if I open carried in my town, I'd make a lot of people very nervous, and I'd sure as all get out be hassled by the cops because these nervous folks would be calling 911 reporting a "man with a gun." I'd wager even going down home to SE Ohio, open carrying in my hometown of perhaps 1,500 people would cause a stir, and make some folks nervous. I might not be down prone on asphalt getting cuffed, but it sure wouldn't be "down home week" either.

Do I think open carry is safer than CC? Nope, I think it puts a 3 foot wide bulls eye on your back, as no human eye is on a 360 degree swivel, and trusting that your ability to see a possible threat before it reacts to seeing you is not possible.

Sure, some people may not even notice you've got a gun. But folks who are looking for any obstacle to getting their way is going to be scanning everyone there to see what threats are in their field of view. I'd sure feel like a total tool if I carried openly, and got shot in the back by a criminal simply because he saw my gun, and took me out before I could defend myself.

Those of you who actually think you're changing people's biases about guns by carrying openly are playing a fools game. They're already biased about guns, they simply see you as a cowboy trying to show you're a big man carrying a gun. Those who are indifferent to citizens carrying guns you are also helping them form an opinion as well. Most see you as a cowboy as well, and you're helping to push them towards a life membership with the Brady Campaign.

 

[razorback2003]

Choice in Tennessee Where I live

I can openly or conceal a handgun with a permit in Tennessee. We are generally not able to carry a loaded handgun, openly or concealed, without a permit, unless we are hunting, fishing, camping, target shooting, or on our own property/business.

I choose to conceal because of the work I do for a living. I have to deal with professional people and most of my customers would flip out if they saw me with my full sized 1911 on my belt when I take them out to eat or meet with them at their offices. It just would not work. I would be asked to leave their property. I could not go to the local/state government buildings with my full sized pistol openly on my belt without being asked to leave, even though it is legal in many cases. I could not go to eat at a decent restaurant that serves liquor (now finally legal) without being asked to leave more than likely in the course of my work. I dress in business slacks most of the time. A snub in an ankle holster or pocket holster fits my appearance a lot better and protects me just fine. There's very little weight too with a S&W 642. The hammerless design draws very very fast from say a coat or jacket pocket in the fall and winter.

I think those that want to carry it is their right in Tennessee but some are hassled and questioned by business owners and police. I've never been questioned or hassled because my gun is hidden. About the only time I openly carry a full sized handgun is when hiking at a state park or wildlife management area or hunting. Out in the woods, I don't care who sees my handgun.

 

[Balrog]

No one has given the slightest bit of evidence to show that OC makes you a target, 4 pages after I asked for anything at all that would support that statement.

Here is the story of a man who was supposedly targeted because he was open carrying:

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/95999354.html


The pro gun people in Wisconsin seem to be using this story as a reason why concealed carry should be allowed.

Personally, if I was a criminal intent on mayhem, I would shoot people open carrying first.

 

[oldbanjo]

While I was eating supper in Israel a guy came in with cut off blue jeans, t shirt and a machine gun, that was very unnerving to me and I love guns. So I do see both sides. In the majority of cases I fill that CC is better but there are also times when OC has it's advantage. I prefer either or.

 

[Dean1818]

CCW by a long shot.

I live in the Dallas area.

I would rather be descreet, especially when there is a HUGE uneasyness
from the public, particularly in the City.

The vast majority of the population in the cities have NEVER handled or shot a gun. They have seen them only in LE, and on TV.

The TV generally make the guy with the visiable gun that is not an LE, as a bad guy.

To the average city dweller, regardless of your intention, fear occurs when an open weapon is displayed. You will not make this fear go away, just because you act curteous and responsible.

To the average city dweller the math works like this for a non-cop.

Gun = Bad guy = danger

I realize that someone shouldnt look at it this way, however, perception becomes reality.

If you live in the country, you probably were brought up around guns. You look at them as a tool. They are only as dangerous as the person holding them. I was born in the country and was brought up hunting so I have a proper respect of weapons.

Because our cities are gaining population and our rural areas are losing population, I believe a non- "in your face" approach is probably best.

Let me give you an example.

3 weeks ago, I am in a Frisco Texas (VERY conservative area) coffee shop and two homosexual men were openly making out. I dont understand that lifestyle. I dont want to see anyone making out in public, gay or straight. I find it disturbing.

I understand that this is their right, but it doesnt mean thay have to "go public" with everything.

I am not sure if everyone lives in a city or not, but let me tell you, the anti's are THICK in the cities, and in your face stuff doesnt help anyone.

As the votes continue to grow from the population centers, and the media and the schools give any gun holder the "gun nut" title, I am very happy to have the right to bear arms, a right that I will continue to fight for.

But....... In my humble opinion, CC works best for me in the city, and what keeps me comfortable and the folks around me. (Because they dont know)

I ask everyone to vote, and to support groups like NRA.

The "anti's" are very well organized and the population is being fed anti-gun propaganda by our media.

(IMHO) I personally believe that when you are in and around city folks, you will create more fear when you OC. Fear doesnt help gun owner in the long run.

I hope I havent offended, just an opinion.

 

[Dean1818]

One last point to consider.

Per a recent study by National Center for Law Enforcement Technology, one in 5 cops that were killed, were killed by thier own gun

Message?

1) An open carry weapon IS a target to be grabbed

2) If a trained LE, who is hired to be alert and watchful can have
his gun grabbed and used on him, it CAN happen to you.

3) In a city, there are too many people in very close proximity for a person to
keep thier eye on everyone, and to see if someone comes up behind to
grab your gun


So.... sorry for the "wordiness" but IMHO

Live in a Population center - CC ALL THE WAY
Live in the country - Whatever works for you

 

[alexp]

Excellent

Well stated and most reasonable of the many comments here.

 

[Travis McGee]

I can conceal my 4" Xd 9mm in any weather here in Florida. IWB strong side, with an untucked shirt over it.

I would not want to open carry, and give away my greatest weapon, the element of surprise. To me, open carry is for open country. CCW is for everything else.

 

[Travis McGee]

...That said, I'm glad there is an "open carry movement" and some folks choose to OC. It makes the entire equation more problematic for criminals. But I would prefer that some other folks OC, and I will CCW.