Double Tap Philosophy

[Nutgun]

This is a breakaway from another topic about home defense.

It may stir some heated debate.

I'm going to speak in some generalities based on my thoughts.

All of law enforcement trains to stop the perps with what they call the double tap. Meaning two shots...one to the torso and one a head shot if possible. But two lethal shots. Meaning whomever is DEAD, not wounded.

The reason for this extensive training is because they are scared of being killed be some armed attacker. And rightly so. So the idea of two shots is to neutralize the threat. Not one shot, one kill.

Many people here are debating the best weapon for home/self defense.

Some say shotgun, some say revolver/handgun. Are the people opting for a shotgun less confident in their shooting abilities and therefore pick a more forgiving gun? Or are they confident that one shotgun blast will end the threat?

Do the people opting for the hand gun feel confident that their one shot shooting skills will bring down the bad guy?

Point being highly trained professionals train for two kill shots for each threat.

Me, Mr. Average Untrained Joe should have the same expectations for my persoanl protection needs. Is my life worth any less than a highly trained law enforcement person? Should I be anymore or less afraid of dying from the bad guys?

My untrained or signifigantly less trained hand should be expected to not eradicate any threat with one shot. Or even the double tap. I should be fully expected to unload the entire gun to neutralize the threat...

Am I wrong to want to kill every home invader with multiple rounds? It's good enough for law enforcement. It should not be questioned if I happen to need 2-3-4-5 shots to neutralize a threat.

Any person breaking into my home for any reason is going to die. I don't care if it's little Johnny from down the street or a 3 time loser ex con. They all know right from wrong. If I stand to lose all my hard earned possessions to pay legal bills then so be it. But wounding someone and having them spending all of my hard earned possessions by suing me for injuries incurred during a break-in isn't an option. If that makes me sound nuts then certify me.

There will be no need for anything but the coroner. They will be double, triple or quadruple tapped. Threat neutailzed.

 

[scythefwd]

Nutgun,
The military trains 1 round per target. That said, a shotgun, at house ranges, should be putting several rounds in the target (00 buck - 0000 buck). I don't think I have seen anyone advocating one shot and stop. More often then not I see shoot till the threat is over, whether that be a dead man, retreating man, or an incapacitated man.

 

[ilikepancakes]

Nutgun,
More often then not I see shoot till the threat is over, whether that be a dead man, retreating man, or an incapacitated man.

This should be your goal.

Any person breaking into my home for any reason is going to die. I don't care if it's little Johnny from down the street or a 3 time loser ex con. They all know right from wrong. If I stand to lose all my hard earned possessions to pay legal bills then so be it. But wounding someone and having them spending all of my hard earned possessions by suing me for injuries incurred during a break-in isn't an option. If that makes me sound nuts then certify me.

Depending on your state, this could land you in prison.

Your choice.

 

[Nutgun]

Could get me killed if I miss or take no action.


A while ago there was a group of high school kids robbing houses after school in the happy hour between 3-5 while people are still working.

4-5 unarmed high school kids can outnumber and kill you just with their fists. Should I feel compassion for them because they are STUPID? Should they regardless of their age be given a pass? If it's nighttime there is never good news or a welcoming committee coming to see you.

I can't tell if little 6 foot Johnny down the street is 16 or 36 in a black hoody coming through my window or door. I don't know his full intentions. I don't know if he has a gun in his pocket just in case he gets spotted.

Stupid is stupid and we all know right from wrong. If I hesitate I could be dead wrong from little Johnny or ex con. Nobody wants to get caught. Especially ex con.

They aren't filling out robbery applications for me to do background checks about their intentions. They should have spent more time doing school work. Doesn't matter if they want my guns, money, or cough medicine. They will fight somehow to try and getaway. They will not be sympathetic to my welfare during the assult. Oh sorry about the brain damage mister. You really don't need to walk anymore that's for suckers.

The threat will end when I say it's over. Expect death as you final outcome if it's within my power. You shouldn't have been STUPID in the first place. WE all have the same opportunity to do right or wrong. Wrong has a penalty. If you don't want to pay the penalty I have in mind don't play with me. I'm not trying to sound macho or like a nutcase. These are my feelings and I'll have to be the one to live with the outcome. BUT I'M NOT PLAYING. Some of you maybe. I hope it never happens but I'm committed if it does.

You never know what they are bringing to the table. I know what I have to offer. Should have picked someone that gives a sh%$& about your worthless life. I don't. If at all possible I'll still be alive to talk about it. Wounding is not in my option page.

 

[REAPER4206969]

That's not a double tap. A double tap is two fast shots with one flash sight picture. What you're thinking of is the Mozambique drill (failure to stop) which is a double tap or controlled pair (like a DT but with two independent flash sight pictures) to the thoracic cavity and one well aimed shot to the ocular cavity.

 

[Roughneck08]

From what I understand from most LEO agencies is shoot to stop not necessarily kill the BG. I don't know where you come up with the 1 shot 1 stop and Law Enforcement.

 

[Nutgun]

Too many slap on the wrists. Too many on probation doing another crime deals. Too many getting away with too much against innocent people.

Why can't the innocent victims get a slap on the wrist..wink, wink... don't let it happen again..now get outta here.

There aren't enough victims rights.

I haven't been a victim yet and I don't want to be.

 

[Nutgun]

Double tap to put two shots in one victim to neutralize a threat. Meaning make sure they don't/can't pose any threat again. Like can't get up to hit you again or shoot at you again. Most likely because of their death.

I didn't say average law enforcement uses one shot one kill. That's sniper stuff.

 

[nrthwoods]

I apologize for not knowing how to make the neat little quote boxes.

The military trains 1 round per target.

I suppose that depends on what branch of the military.

Reaper has already adressed the distinction between a 'mozambique drill' and what you described.

There could follow an endless discussion about intimate, split second decisions in the critical moment of finding yourself face to face with an intruder. Maybe they're armed, maybe they're not. Maybe it's an ex con, or a high schooler. I think the situation is really more about successfully assessing and reacting to the threat than how many rounds you dump into him. Your priority should be about neutralizing the threat. I can't say I'd feel sympathetic for a thief being killed in the act, however...


we all know right from wrong

Expect death as you final outcome if it's within my power.

This sounds more like you wanting the chance to hands down smoke someone rambo-style because you feel there would be no legal repercussion.

 

[Nutgun]

Some people on here sound like one shotgun blast or 45 handgun round will do the job.

I'm saying target identified and the shooting starts. Counting on the fact that I fully expect there to be multiple shots fired by me. I highly doubt I'll be extremely lucky with using one shot. Given the unexpected circumstances, high stress and everything else.

 

[shockwave]

Sounds like you're over-dramatizing the double-tap. Once you've fired once on target you are in good position to add another shot before moving on with your life and exploring other interesting features in your immediate environment.

Numerous reports abound of people taking multiple hits - e.g., 5 rounds of .357 - and living through it. So a double tap isn't a guarantee of a particular outcome. As for executing people who enter your home, be sure of your target and be sure of your backstop.

 

[jcwit]

Do you REALLY WANT to kill someone? Are you now Judge, Jury, & excutioner?

 

[Nutgun]

I've seen too many stories about bad guys suing the good guys over their injuries. I'm not being sued by any corpse, period.

Maybe you want your family living under a bridge while the bad guy sleeps in your/his new house.

I'm not Rambo or Joe Cool. I'm Mr. Innocent Victim that's not going to back down if the opportunity presents itself. Call me a man of confiction but that's how it's going down if someone tests me on my home turf. Not Rambo, but I'm just not going to lay down and lick my sack. Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do and take your medicine.

Oh, I might go to jail. What's better going to the morgue? A lifetime being a cripple. Brain damage? Ventilator?

Better for your family to visit with you at a tomb stone?

I'm not thinking jail is a picinic and I can't wait to get there.

 

[Nutgun]

Do you REALLY WANT to kill someone? Are you now Judge, Jury, & excutioner?

At my house.....yes. If it's them or me...yes.

You feeling different about that?

 

[SMMAssociates]

Shoot to stop.

Keep shooting until the BG stops....

But be prepared to defend your round count. Nasty Prosecutors and unenlightened Juries sometimes see that Ohio State Patrol tape (sniper popping a gun out of a nutcase's hands) and assume that we should do the same.

In extremis, getting two shots into the BG under any circumstances may be difficult. IMHO, double-tap his chest, and then go for the pelvis or head, or both. A couple rounds of #4 or larger (minimal penetration in a house) can also do the job.

That said, if you have six rounds and four BG's, three double-taps can be a problem.... IMHO, you probably shouldn't be someplace where you need a 10+ round double-stacker anyway, but when you're talking home defense rather than carry, if you can still lift it, it's probably OK....

(And, carry a spare magazine if you're into semi's, or a speedloader or some such for revolvers. You may actually need to reload, but I'm more concerned with malfunctions or accidental magazine drops. Really cheap insurance.... A friend used to hit the road - LEO - with 91 rounds of 9mm on his belt. 'Bout sixteen in the gun, and a bunch more in magazines. A little overkill, but.... I quit carrying a double-stack 1911 because of the weight of the spare magazine, but that's another story.)

If you can't live with the idea of killing the BG because he won't otherwise stop, become a blissninny and move to New York City....

Regards,

 

[Nutgun]

Sounds like you're over-dramatizing the double-tap. Once you've fired once on target you are in good position to add another shot before moving on with your life and exploring other interesting features in your immediate environment.

Numerous reports abound of people taking multiple hits - e.g., 5 rounds of .357 - and living through it. So a double tap isn't a guarantee of a particular outcome. As for executing people who enter your home, be sure of your target and be sure of your backstop.
__________________
If I have to reload I will unitl they stop wiggling.

 

[Oyeboten]

In my own imagination, details depend on details...decisions depend on judgement, and, on details.

How many serious-enough assailents? Meaning, if I accept a situation is serious enough for me to fire?

What are they wearing? are they wearing Body Armor? Can I tell?

How close are they to me?

What is my recourse for retreat? or cover?

What is theirs?


Old Time Gunfighters used to usually say, start shooting as you come up ( out of the Holster).

One to the groin or low abdomen, one to the upper stomach or solar plexis, one to the mid chest, one to the collarbone or neck...one to the face or head if they are still standing at that point...BAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAM...let the Muzzle rise be your friend.

Not shoot, 'BAM', and look to see how you think of it, or how they think of it, to decide if you wish to fire another round.



If more than one assailant, then one may wish to decide who is first, who is second, and, how one wishes to proportion one's shots.


Seems to me...

If one has a Smith & Wesson J-Frame, or, a Browning Hi-Power, kinda makes a difference in so far as the shots one has to proportion, too.

Re-loading, notwithstanding...

 

[nrthwoods]

I don't think anyone was trying to suggest that 2 shots will absolutely stop a man dead, just that it's a common tactic as an immediate response. Response is the key word here. The elite military and law enforcement you mention typically only shoot if they have to, not just because they can.


Am I wrong to want to kill every home invader with multiple rounds?

Even in this hypothetical situation you concede that it's your desire not just to end the threat, not to protect yourself and your belongings, but to kill someone. And with the alleged objective of using max rounds possible.

I get the feeling you're seeking validity for an overkill response, and I would speculate that if it is indeed because you WANT to kill someone, not because you HAVE to, it's probably something you haven't done before.

 

[jcwit]

You feeling different about that?

Yes, as in stay away from me as a neighbor and from my neighborhood!

Sounds to me like you have a HUGE CHIP on your shoulder.

Or in other words, Why not just empty the clip, making dern sure they're DEAD, DEAD, DEAD.

Then Live with it for the rest of your life, and don't say NO problem, unless you've already done it. Know whereof you speak!

 

[scythefwd]

nrthwoods - Every range I went to that used popup targets only allocates 1 round per target.

Nutgun - killing the BG off won't stop the lawsuits... the family will still file a wrongful death suit. Again, I don't see people recommending only one shot, I see them recommending shoot till the threat is over. Would you mind digging up some posts where you saw 1 shot and stop recommendations?

You have stated that you want to kill the home invader, not stop the threat "

Am I wrong to want to kill every home invader with multiple rounds

". Understand, there is a difference. If you get that first double tap off and somehow miss and he starts to run... your next shots won't be viewed as self defense any more but murder.

 

[Nutgun]

I refuse to be a VICTIM of an injury lawsuit brought on by the guy injured while breaking into MY house. You may feel totally different about your belongings and hard earned stuff. Do you want to take a chance on giving it all away to some wounded perp? Good luck with that.

 

[scythefwd]

Nutgun, nothing in my house is worth that much to begin with, and as I said before, you will still be subject to wrongful death suits. Just because the perp is dead doesn't mean his family isn't going to lawyer up and still take you for every cent you will ever earn. You are more likely to be a victim of a wrongful death lawsuit if they can show that the guy was trying to get away. Starting off with the attitude of "shoot till he's dead" instead of assessing the situation and shooting till he stops being a threat very well could make it worse on you. You might not want to die, but will live in prison be any different? You won't have YOUR stuff that you worked so hard for, you only get to see your wife and kid through some glass, and you no longer have any freedom.

 

[Nutgun]

I'm not asking anyone here to justify anything.

If you want to break into my house have the coroner drop you off. It'll save him some time and gas money.

Dead men tell no talis. So they can't testify against me in court. Their family can argue all they want. It's my story against the dead mans. He's dead in my house. Not dead in his house and I went after him there. It looks better for me than him. But he'll never know that, will he.

Anything can happen in a court room. Think OJ. Has he actually paid anything yet? Still walking around?

I'm not sitting here praying for a robbery to happen. But I know the outcome if IF IF I survive it. I'm not going to be a dead victim in my house if I can help it.

 

[jcwit]

I refuse to be a VICTIM of an injury lawsuit brought on by the guy injured while breaking into MY house. You may feel totally different about your belongings and hard earned stuff. Do you want to take a chance on giving it all away to some wounded perp? Good luck with that.

No not really. But I don't want to give it all away to a lawyer either. Then again my freedom is worth something, and I just do not mean freedom from prison, but freedom from ghosts and devils in my past means a whole lot also.

Like I said, Know whereof you speak!! Sleepless nights are not an asset, no matter where they're spent.

 

[scythefwd]

Dead men tell no talis. So they can't testify against me in court. Their family can argue all they want. It's my story against the dead mans. He's dead in my house.

You seem to have forgotten about forensic sciences.

Actually, OJ did pay some, and no, he isn't still walking around free.