DUI Checkpoint caught on film

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Consitituional or case law?

good question i think when the supreme court ruled we can say both they ruled on the constitutional issue and so settled the case that brought it there. but then again i'm just a jailhouse lawyer and didn't even stay in a holiday inn express last nite
 
The police are there for our protection. Just as all of us respect the military for protecting our freedom, the police protect our freedom.

No nation can stand without law. Respect the authority.

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I have known some real good cops and some really bad ones. Before I comment on the bad ones, let me say that I am far from being a cop basher. One of my best friends was a Sheriffs dept for 10+ years and I worked closely on the political campains for three of our local high ranking police offices (one of which was elected as a State Senator) one of which wrote me a glowing letter of recommendation for graduate school. With that said, his my take on the bad apples that spoil the bunch.

I have found that the bad ones all appear to have one thing in common. They are individuals that have a huge inflated ego. In any other line of work they would have absolutely no authority over anyone. However, being a LEO gives them authority over people they could never themselves hope to be. The worst thing for these people is to find someone that has a better understanding of the law than they do. This challenges their entire world view, not to mention their positive self image. To compensate for this they become that much more aggersive and belittling, in many casing arresting someone just to show them that they can. These cops are a disgrace to the badge they wear and cast a negative shadow on the normal well adjusted officers out there just trying to do the job that treat people fairly and respectfully.
 
oobray

I could not hear the contents of the film past 4 min. Therefore, I may not have seen everything that transpired. However, I disagree with one of your statements. A person asserting his or her rights not to incriminate himself under the 5th Amendment is not being evasive under IL v. Wardlow. That case involved a subject who fled at the sight of LEO's.
 
I think read earlier in here that it's more effective for the cops to catch people in the parking lots of bars...

- maybe so, but what about places like my "dry" county that has no bars, but still plenty of drunk driving? I don't think the local depuites have the authority to go to the next county (which happens to be in the next STATE) and patrol the liquor store parking lot...;)

I DO see where the "innocent until proven guilty" bit comes in, but until people develop enough personal responsibility to NOT drink and drive, the cops have to do something to deter and catch drunk drivers. At least until every car comes with a breathalyzer-locked ignition or something...! :what:

Disclosure - I have (and had) some alcoholics in the family, but AFAIK, have not had any bad experiences thanks to an "outside" drunk driver.

When I was about 8, an alcoholic uncle crashed while driving drunk and killed himself. To be brutally honest, I never did like him and even at that young age found "poetic justice" in it...! :evil:

More or less around the same time, my dad managed to total his truck while hitting a moving train while drunk - but barely got a scratch on him. Proving the adage that "only the good die young," just a few years ago he had another crash while driving drunk. Ate some windshield that time, but no "permanent" damage. And again, thankfully, it was just him and a much tougher object (this time a big rock) involved....
 
DUI is another victimless crime in and of itself. and should not be enforced at all unless it is an added circumstance in an accident.

DUI checkpoints do nothing but hammer home the message that we're really not living in a free society anymore. and don't even get me started on the seatbelt checkpoints...
 
Sorry to come in late, and on a tangent, but to quote Green Lantern:
I DO see where the "innocent until proven guilty" bit comes in, but until people develop enough personal responsibility to NOT drink and drive, the cops have to do something to deter and catch drunk drivers.
The "Something" the cops should "Do" is to patrol the roads, observe the driving, and apprehend those who drive erratically. If it is determined that the erratic driving is due to illegal drugs or alcohol, they should throw their asses in jail. Maybe have a half-hour show on a local access channel, showing video of the arrest, publish the names and addresses of the drivers, etc. Punish the wrongdoers, don't hassle the public.
At least until every car comes with a breathalyzer-locked ignition or something...!
Sorta like the ol' Smart Gun technology? Sheesh. Some people. Don't y'all realize that meekly accepting these sorts of police-state activities in support of the WoDD, WoD, illegal immigration et al will only serve to facilitate other infringements? How about "gun stops"? They okay, too?
 
Deanimator said:
rmurfster said:
The police are there for our protection.
No they're not.

That's settled caselaw.

If you don't believe me, try to sue the police for NOT protecting you.

I have NEVER been protected by the police, even when they were requested specifically to do just that.

I agree, the Police cannot protect the individual. However, they are here to protect us in a general sense... I would not and I have not left mine or my families personal protection up to the police. I am a gun owner and would use it to protect my family.
 
spartacus2002 said:
rmurfster said:
The police are there for our protection. Just as all of us respect the military for protecting our freedom, the police protect our freedom.

No nation can stand without law. Respect the authority.
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I never said you couldn't question authority, but to respect it... There is a difference.

It's blatant rebellion such as this that gives us a bad name. We all must live under law and in the US, we have a right to question it, and even to disobey when we think it is wrong, but we still must respect those in authority; not because of who they are, but what they represent; which is our great country!

For those of you who will respond, "Respect must be earned, not given", I say to you, I respect our President (doesn't matter what party), not because of who he is, but because of the Office he holds and the USA.
 
In one of the checkpoint SCOTUS cases Sandy D. opined that a driver could always turn around and not gop through th echeckpoint.
Of course may agencies have a car parked the other way for just this event and will chase down a driver who turns around to avoid the checkpoint.
Some much for her worldly knowledge.
Great thinking. So I can jsut turn around? How about if Ican not do so saftly? How about if its a narrow road of the idiot behind me wont leave a few feet between my bumper and his? How about if its the only way home that is a option (or realistic option) for me? Better yet how about if thats just the way I feel liek going home on a public road way and not be treated like a subject rather then a citizen? As has also been said (and demonstrated by one civily disobediant member here) try turning around and see how far you get before you get a flash of lights behind you.

good question i think when the supreme court ruled we can say both they ruled on the constitutional issue and so settled the case that brought it there. but then again i'm just a jailhouse lawyer and didn't even stay in a holiday inn express last nite
Nope sorry untill congress votes to ammend the consitituion it is not consititional law governing it, it is case law. And if they ammend the consitition to accomodate it is still blatant violation of you natural rights every human being is intitled to. Just because they interpreted the constitution that does not change the constitution.

The police are there for our protection. Just as all of us respect the military for protecting our freedom, the police protect our freedom.

No nation can stand without law. Respect the authority.
Are you freaking kidding me? Try going through some of numerous ruling in court. Time and time agian it has been ruled withotu a doubt that the police have no obligation to help you, they can see yu about to get your head blown off and keep walking waiting untill your grey matter is all over the sidewalk and then arrest the guy. They are obligated to preform law enforcment not protect any single person. And respect is earned, it isn't granted through a badge. An ******* police state agent is an ******* police state agent reguardless of how well spit shined his badge and jack boots are.

I DO see where the "innocent until proven guilty" bit comes in, but until people develop enough personal responsibility to NOT drink and drive, the cops have to do something to deter and catch drunk drivers. At least until every car comes with a breathalyzer-locked ignition or something...!
Bit? Since when is one of your most basic freedoms a BIT??? Oh but god forbid they don't do "something". Yeha in this case this something blatantly violates your rights and the rights of everyone else stopped. How about instead of stantding there harrasing innocent citizens they get their asses in the car, spend some extra money on the gas bill, and patrol the roads looking for all forms of reckless driving. Punish people actually commiting a crime and being a danger to the safty of others on the road, not just of someone who is heading home driving perfectly fine but just happened to get stopped at a check point or random fishing expedition.

DUI is another victimless crime in and of itself. and should not be enforced at all unless it is an added circumstance in an accident.
Amen

DUI checkpoints do nothing but hammer home the message that we're really not living in a free society anymore. and don't even get me started on the seatbelt checkpoints...
Don't get me started on any check points for "random checks"

I agree, the Police cannot protect the individual. However, they are here to protect us in a general sense... I would not and I have not left mine or my families personal protection up to the police. I am a gun owner and would use it to protect my family.
No they don't protect us in the general sense. That was supposed to the individuals job, protecting himself and his own with the help of other willing citizens just like himself. Police officers only legal obligation is to investigate crime and enforce laws.
 
ProguninTN

However, I disagree with one of your statements. A person asserting his or her rights not to incriminate himself under the 5th Amendment is not being evasive under IL v. Wardlow. That case involved a subject who fled at the sight of LEO's.

That is not the only one he missed the boat on! :rolleyes:

By the way, even in Wardlow, flight, by itself, was not sufficient to justify the stop. It was only one factor to be used in determining whether the officers actually had reasonable suspicion of a crime that would justify seizing Mr. Wardlow.

oobray pulled out the "evasive" word from its context and claimed it justified detaining this 19 year old guy at the DUI checkpoint for "evading" the officer's questions about where he was going.

Maybe you should have asked oobray this:

oobray, please explain for us how telling the officer you prefer not to answer his personal questions about your travel plans creates an articulable, reasonable suspicion that you are committing the crime of DUI.

:confused:

We're waiting. :rolleyes:

:neener:
 
Lupinus said:
No they don't protect us in the general sense. That was supposed to the individuals job, protecting himself and his own with the help of other willing citizens just like himself. Police officers only legal obligation is to investigate crime and enforce laws.

Look, I already conceded that it's not the LEO's job is to protect us individually; that is up to us. No argument there.

But what do you think enforcing laws does? It protects us. It may not protect us face-to-face, but when a thief, murderer, drunk driver, child molester, rapist,... is put away, it protects us. Can't you at least admit that?

At least give a little respect to the LEO's. They (for the most part) are doing their job to keep us a free and safe society. Not always right, but then, which of us is perfect?

I'm willing to see where I can change my views... are you?
 
What if the only way you are able to turn around is by making a U-Turn in front of officers and a U-turn is illegal? Then they stop you on the basis of making a U-turn and avoid the whole checkpoint hassle.

I am sorry but the simple fact is that these DUI / Safety and Compliance checkpoints are very unAmerican. Imagine telling Benjamin Franklin or Tomas Jefferson that officers of the state are going to stop them to make sure they are not breaking the law. And in the name of officer safety they will be searched on the side of the road while another officer secures their vehicle on the side of the road so that other subje...err I mean citizens could be checked for compliance and to make sure noone is committing a crime.

I doubt they would have approved of that.

But if it saves just one childs life, isnt it worth it?
 
But what do you think enforcing laws does? It protects us. It may not protect us face-to-face, but when a thief, murderer, drunk driver, child molester, rapist,... is put away, it protects us. Can't you at least admit that?
He gets it
LEOs job is to investigate crime and apprehend criminals, criminals that once apprehended are put some place for the protection of the society
police have no obligation to help you, they can see you about to get your head blown off and keep walking waiting until your grey matter is all over the sidewalk and then arrest the guy. They are obligated to preform law enforcment not protect any single person.
He doesn't. If the police witness a crime in progress they are obligated to intervene not wait until another greater crime is committed.
If the officer fails to do his duty in intervening in the lesser crime then he is accountable for the commission of the greater crime.

A cop witnessing a person committing the crime of threatening another with a gun is witnessing a crime and has a duty to investigate that crime and apprehend the criminal
 
I believe the words a lot of you in favor of checkpoints are looking for are: The end justifies the means.

This is the only way you have been able to argue your point. As usual, you want to get off topic and have your own arguement. Less people dying sounds like a good thing so you go with that. Often the right choice is not the easy choice. Freedom isn't free. Take some personal responsibility and deal with the harsh reality of life. I know it's hard, but it's something us grown ups need to do.
 
Sorry Joab, but you obviously haven't been keeping abreast of various court rulings. They are under NO obligation to protect you or stop a crime in progress and the courts have absolved them of any wrong doing when some survivors sued the police department and officer involved. One only need look to Columbine to see that they aren't under any obligation to stop a crime in progress.

As a side note, the job of being a police officer does not even make the top ten of the most dangerous jobs, according to the US Dept. of Labor. So all of you that say they put their lives on the line every day, please give it a rest.
 
But what do you think enforcing laws does? It protects us. It may not protect us face-to-face, but when a thief, murderer, drunk driver, child molester, rapist,... is put away, it protects us. Can't you at least admit that?
It does. But if they didn't have as many laws saying I couldn't shoot the same people you mention the end result wouldn't be so far of. And they have no job to protect you specificaly. Thier job is law enforcment, not citizen protection.

At least give a little respect to the LEO's. They (for the most part) are doing their job to keep us a free and safe society. Not always right, but then, which of us is perfect?
When I meet an officer I give them the same respect I give any other citizen on a first encounter. That respect can very quickly and easily be increased or decreased, agian just like any other citizen. And you are joking right? You think illegal wire taps, fishing expeditions, and random check points help to keep this a free society? You sir need to take a step back and look around you at the actions of the state and its law enforcment agents and reconsider. Cause those actions sure and hell dont work to keep us free. And doing their job isn't an excuse, doing something illegal or violating someones rights doesnt change because you do it while wearing a badge. And as to which of us is perfect? No one is. But at the same tiem the state hasn't granted me the power to ruin someones life in the same manner a cop and court can.

He doesn't. If the police witness a crime in progress they are obligated to intervene not wait until another greater crime is committed.
If the officer fails to do his duty in intervening in the lesser crime then he is accountable for the commission of the greater crime.
The hell they are you need to do some research on all the cases that say otherwise. All the cop has to say is he personally felt the risk to his own safty was to great and he can sit there with a bowl of popcorn watching it happen and not be at fault in the slightist. Unless he activly contributes to the crime at hand he is in the clear, there is absoloutly nothing that says he can't watch and wait for back up or for the situation to become less a danger to him before he acts.

A cop witnessing a person committing the crime of threatening another with a gun is witnessing a crime and has a duty to investigate that crime and apprehend the criminal
Yeah but there is nothing governing WHEN or how he does that. That may include waiting to till all of bg's bulelts are in my chest so the risk to the officer is reduced.

You do realize in most training programs the general idea is to get yourself home safe, not the people you are protecting right? The cops safty comes first, the citizens second and he has no legal obligation to stop you from being injured.

Now are they encouraged to let it happen? Not to the greatist extent no. But could they if they decided to? Legally you betcha.

As a side note, the job of being a police officer does not even make the top ten of the most dangerous jobs, according to the US Dept. of Labor
Statistically speaking I (a guy working in a convienence store setting) am more likely, as is a fisherman and a wide range of other professions.
 
A cop witnessing a person committing the crime of threatening another with a gun is witnessing a crime and has a duty to investigate that crime and apprehend the criminal
Really? Does he have a LEGAL, ENFORCEABLE duty to do so?

If not, there's no meaningful duty at all. A "duty" which is not enforceable isn't a duty at all, merely a suggestion.

"Moral duties" aren't worth the electrons that went into my typing this.
 
Lupinus said:
And you are joking right? You think illegal wire taps, fishing expeditions, and random check points help to keep this a free society? You sir need to take a step back and look around you at the actions of the state and its law enforcment agents and reconsider. Cause those actions sure and hell dont work to keep us free. And doing their job isn't an excuse, doing something illegal or violating someones rights doesnt change because you do it while wearing a badge. And as to which of us is perfect? No one is. But at the same tiem the state hasn't granted me the power to ruin someones life in the same manner a cop and court can.

I never said that illegal wire taps, etc... help keep us free. I am also disappointed in the deterioration of the Constitution within our country. I just pray there's never a point where I have to make the decision when to join the revolution (although based on the major news stories the last couple of days, I fear that may be sooner than later :( ).
 
Getting back to the original post, it appears to me that this kid wasn't disrespectful, or "snotty", or anything of the sort. If he was breaking the law, it isn't apparent how. He did, however, cross a line that has brought out many of the contradictions in peoples' attitudes about and perceptions of police officers and their roles, and in my view that makes this a great learning tool.

One contradiction is the notion that "police officers are our friends". Many if not most parents, at some point in a kid's life, will make this statement in the context of a young and innocent child's potential interaction with/need for a cop, because at that particular age they cannot conceive of an instance where that child's freedom or welfare could be jeopardized by such a meeting. However, anyone that's ever had a "contact" meeting with a cop sooner or later realizes instinctively, whether they can articulate it or not, that the cop is actively trying to frame the interaction in a "parent-child" context in which the cop drives the contact as the "parent" role. This is the mindset that allows them to make what was earlier termed "small talk", but in fact is the opening gambit in what is absolutely a line of interrogation. The most gifted cops in this area end up making fine interrogators -- you can watch shows like "The First 48" to get a great tutorial on it. Anyone that has ever fallen into the "child" end of this sort of conversation knows a few things immediately: first, they are being consciously manipulated. Second, they don't like it very much, because it's a stressful feeling, but they don't want to be perceived as rude by resisting it. And third, they almost invariably believe that, due to the cop's position and authority, they are not at liberty to resist being manipulated.

What the kid in this video did was circumvent the cop's application of this ploy by stating, as politely and directly as he could without actually falling into it, that he didn't want to participate in such a conversation. You have to understand, cops don't like surprises. They also come to believe (or follow this twisted logic in order to keep the charade afloat) that for any subject, especially a teenager, to resist this maneuver is to be disrespectful and uncooperative. Quite simply put, the cat zigged, the kid zagged, and the cat got p*ssed off at getting caught flat-footed. As far as I'm concerned, the rest of the interaction with the entire LE team was an offshoot of this perception, handed down via the words, tone, and body language of the cop to his colleagues. I thought the kid handled it well, actually. He wasn't disrespectful, and he didn't refuse to cooperate (stopped when commanded, left the vehicle when commanded, etc). He just wasn't willing to "play the game" that would put any additional leverage, whether real or perceived, in the cop's hands to be used against himself.

It's important to note that this has nothing to do with the kid's right to avoid self-incrimination. Unless you can point to some illegal activity on his part, it's nothing more than an attractive canard relative to this particular interaction. So few people understand this distinction and realize that they don't have to let the interaction move to this "parent-child" mindset that the cops assume anyone who knows about it *and* tries to use it must be hiding criminal activity and attempting to thwart their efforts to discover it. This is especially true of less-experienced officers. While not all tactical/patrol officers are inexperienced, that's where you're most likely to find them because that's where police officers start their careers as sworn officers, with few exceptions.

The kid provided us with a valuable lesson, if you ask me. Unfortunately for him, it's too easy for the cops to decide he's a "snotty kid" and then start in on him with the fallacious logical arguments like "if you're not hiding something, why not cooperate?", and the veiled threats of arrest, etc. Were I to do it at my age, I could theoretically probably keep the cop from going there by being deferential but firm, or maybe by applying humor to the situation (which isn't usually a good idea -- I know I wouldn't try it). Having been on both sides of that conversation, I have to marvel at how breathtakingly simple a device it is, and how profound its effect is on people.

Anyway, just my two cents.
 
we had a guy too

"More or less around the same time, my dad managed to total his truck while hitting a moving train while drunk - but barely got a scratch on him. "

hit 2 trains 7 years apart at the same crossing playing beat the train, and both times it was on budweiser and bloomer night second time was the charm though he will not try for the hat trick
 
Yo, Mr. Specialized, good post.

I have never been in le unless you count a short stint as brig chaser in the USN but I have been sort of immunized by some of my life's prior experiences.

Immunized.

I look forward to steadfastly looking leo in the eye and remaining silent.

Again.

No need to be polite, just silent.

The policeman is not your friend.
 
Perhaps one of you can show me a court case that has stated that a cop has no duty to intervene in a crime and can willfully and wantonly disregard a serious threat to someones life

Perhaps one of you could show me where any cop at the scene in Columbine had a clear shot at a perpetrator or even knew where they were
 
last time i checked

i thought the supreme court settled contitutional issues. part of that pesky triumvirate. can anyone point out where i got confused?


"Nope sorry untill congress votes to ammend the consitituion it is not consititional law governing it, it is case law. And if they ammend the consitition to accomodate it is still blatant violation of you natural rights every human being is intitled to. Just because they interpreted the constitution that does not change the constitution."


and if not the supreme court then who?
 
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