EDC accuracy requirement
- Thread starter camsdaddy
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I realize the chance of needing to make a 25 yard hostage shot is fairly rare. I also realize that most shots are going to be within 3-7 yards. That said I feel a lot better carrying something capable of making a head shot at 25 yards. What that means to me is an armadillo at 25 yards or possibly a rabid water bottle. I figure if nothing else it provides confidence. I realize defensive shooting and target shooting are two different creatures. However with both I want to shoot where I am aiming. I did not set out for this to be my criteria but I have found I feel better carrying a gun that I can shoot the 6 1/2 plate rack with fairly regular. I realize most guns can do this but I like to carry one that I have the ability to do it with. This is the reason I am carrying my Glock 19 more and more. I can shoot it with my 26 but I realize there is room for improvement. I know the gun can do it is simply operator error when it doesn't. I find I shoot my S&W model 60 well enough to do it pretty regular. No doubt most of my shooting is done from 2-12 yards.
Vodoun da Vinci
Member
All of my guns are way more accurate than I'll ever be able to exploit. My personal standard: To be able to put 3 rounds in one second into center mass on a target with a group size I can cover with one hand while moving laterally to cover, if there is any, or just drawing while moving and shooting while continuing lateral movement. The standard is 21' but I train and practice this at 12 - 15' and up to 30' away. I rarely keep 3 rounds in a 4ish" group at 30+ feet and can do it consistently at 15 - 21.
I do shoot target indoors to keep all the basics in good working order and when I can I visit the outdoor range of a friend or another at "The Farm" and test/train my moving and shooting skills at least 6 times a year. I shoot primarily to get SD skills and feel strongly that moving fast/quickly and drawing/shooting on the move is The Way for SD shooting skills. I have not shot beyond perhaps 50' for many years.
Standing and shooting it out (the concept of that) makes me shiver so I train basics and then train survival SD tactics.
VooDoo
I do shoot target indoors to keep all the basics in good working order and when I can I visit the outdoor range of a friend or another at "The Farm" and test/train my moving and shooting skills at least 6 times a year. I shoot primarily to get SD skills and feel strongly that moving fast/quickly and drawing/shooting on the move is The Way for SD shooting skills. I have not shot beyond perhaps 50' for many years.
Standing and shooting it out (the concept of that) makes me shiver so I train basics and then train survival SD tactics.
VooDoo
MedWheeler
Member
It's me I demand some degree of accuracy from more than my firearm.
At fifteen yards, I expect the combo (me and my gun) to be able to score COM hits on a combat silhouette target "more often than not".
At seven yards, I expect the combo to "almost never miss" the target's COM.
This highly-technical standard applies to any firearm I'm carrying for defense.
At fifteen yards, I expect the combo (me and my gun) to be able to score COM hits on a combat silhouette target "more often than not".
At seven yards, I expect the combo to "almost never miss" the target's COM.
This highly-technical standard applies to any firearm I'm carrying for defense.
beeenbag
Member
I have found that most firearms will out shoot me, I just shoot some better than others.
I doubt there are very many people who can outshoot a glock or ruger sr9c or anything remotely quality. It all comes down to what YOU shoot well. If I don't shoot a gun well, I tend to not keep it around.
I doubt there are very many people who can outshoot a glock or ruger sr9c or anything remotely quality. It all comes down to what YOU shoot well. If I don't shoot a gun well, I tend to not keep it around.
ratt_finkel
Member
Short of the tiny mouse guns. I think it would be hard to find a main stream carry gun these days that can't make head shots @ 25 yards. Whether or not the operator is capable is another question.
I think that is why it's important that everyone be proficient with their own carry gun. Not everyone is capable of picking any gun off a shelf and being dead nuts accurate with it. A lot of people need significant trigger time with a firearm before they are accurate enough to carry it.
I'll never understand people who think shotgun patterns at 3-7yards with their EDC is acceptable accuracy. If you are one of those people, you need to be working on your technique.
I think that is why it's important that everyone be proficient with their own carry gun. Not everyone is capable of picking any gun off a shelf and being dead nuts accurate with it. A lot of people need significant trigger time with a firearm before they are accurate enough to carry it.
I'll never understand people who think shotgun patterns at 3-7yards with their EDC is acceptable accuracy. If you are one of those people, you need to be working on your technique.
I have had several duty sized guns that I can outshoot. Didn't stop me from carrying them.
Depends on the scenario. I see nothing wrong with shooting a "shotgun sized pattern" against the clock while moving. For that matter, I don't need a tack driver (or tack driver accuracy) to shoot a 5 second El Pres. at 10 yards. FWIW, I bought a Sig P238 just yesterday. Took it for an outing this morning. I am getting 3-4 inch groups at 10 yards. Totally unacceptable accuracy for a full size gun, but good enough for a mouse gun. Or is it?
MICHAEL T
Member
That about what my old Colt Mustang will do. I always thought was fine for a pocket pistol . You can do COM with that group pretty easy. .
beeenbag
Member
Well you sir must be a crack shot. Gun-tests.com has an article where they put a glock 21 in a ransom rest and were shooting 5 shot groups at 25 yards, average group was 1.7". 95% of the population can't sniff that.
Archie
Member
I follow the 'headshots at 25 yards' school of thought. The pistol and ammunition have to be able to deliver that level of accuracy.
Obviously, I have to be able to use that accuracy or it counts for nothing. I just see no point in beginning with a mediocre handgun/ammo combination. Being under stress doesn't increase accuracy.
Obviously, I have to be able to use that accuracy or it counts for nothing. I just see no point in beginning with a mediocre handgun/ammo combination. Being under stress doesn't increase accuracy.
M2 Carbine
member
I can't remember the last defense type gun that wasn't accurate enough for a carry gun.
I'd say any defense/carry gun should empty the magazine into one hole at about 7 yards. And most guns will, like this recently purchased XDS 45.
(XDS, not XDX)
I think going on back to 25-35 yards or so the defense gun setup should help the shooter maintain a bullet spread that can mostly be covered with the palm of the hand and outstretched fingers.
Even something like a 50 year old well used 2 inch barrel 38 is more accurate than most people shooting them.
I'd say any defense/carry gun should empty the magazine into one hole at about 7 yards. And most guns will, like this recently purchased XDS 45.
(XDS, not XDX)
I think going on back to 25-35 yards or so the defense gun setup should help the shooter maintain a bullet spread that can mostly be covered with the palm of the hand and outstretched fingers.
Even something like a 50 year old well used 2 inch barrel 38 is more accurate than most people shooting them.
Deus Machina
Member
If I can't hit a torso-sized target at 25 yards, I won't carry it.
Doesn't have to be in the 10-ring, or a bullseye, or anything. Just on the target.
Of course I make sure it hits more accurately closer, but 25 yards is far more than I'm likely to ever need to point it, let alone fire it.
Doesn't have to be in the 10-ring, or a bullseye, or anything. Just on the target.
Of course I make sure it hits more accurately closer, but 25 yards is far more than I'm likely to ever need to point it, let alone fire it.
huntershooter
Member
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J. Michael Plaxco was fond of saying; "FIRST you gotta have confidence in your equipment".
Obviously meaning; your firearm must go bang EVERY time and the more accurate the better.
I share this sentiment.
My carry guns will be capable of hitting "eye of choice" @ 25 yds. and go BANG; every time.
Obviously meaning; your firearm must go bang EVERY time and the more accurate the better.
I share this sentiment.
My carry guns will be capable of hitting "eye of choice" @ 25 yds. and go BANG; every time.
Yeah, and I had a Glock 17 that wouldn't shoot for beans, even after a couple of factory armorers tinkered with it at a Glock shoot. I had a Smith and Wesson M&P Pro that shot tlike an improved cylinder scatter gun. As far as crack shot, I do OK. I am or was a PPC High Master, USPSA Grandmaster, NRA Action Pistol Master, and the list goes on.
beeenbag said:
This business of "outshooting your gun" is widely misunderstood, methinks. In the case of this G21, a shooter who can print sub-2 1/2" groups with it is outshooting it. IOW, he doesn't have to shoot 1.7" groups to outshoot the gun - matter of fact, to do so would be to outshoot all guns, since it'd be perfection on the shooter's part.
Speedo66
Member
I shot expert until I retired from my agency, first with an S&W 2" Chief Spl, and then with a Glock 26.
I don't carry either of those guns now, my EDC is a Ruger LCP, and I can stay in a man size group at 50'. For my purposes, that's accurate enough. It's not a target pistol, it's a close quarters gun. I'm willing to give up some accuracy in exchange for a size and weight I'll actually carry.
I'll leave the 50 yard head shots to a better equipped professional.
I don't carry either of those guns now, my EDC is a Ruger LCP, and I can stay in a man size group at 50'. For my purposes, that's accurate enough. It's not a target pistol, it's a close quarters gun. I'm willing to give up some accuracy in exchange for a size and weight I'll actually carry.
I'll leave the 50 yard head shots to a better equipped professional.
ratt_finkel
Member
Yes, but now you are talking about the shooters proficiency. NOT, the firearms accuracy. Like I said, I think you would be hard pressed to find a firearm that is not mechanically capable of the accuracy of 6" @ 25 yards.
I've seen much better accuracy out of the 238 I fired. But I would not consider that a mouse gun.
I agree. I guess what I am driving at is the accuracy of the gun depends on the application. Like most, I want as accurate a specimen as I can find for the platform and application, but often times I will settle for less.
I saved my target because I need to push the sights. I measured the two five shot groups and I am getting closer to 2 3/4 inches at 10 yards so I stand corrected. Both groups have 4 shots inside of 2 inches and then a flier. I believe if you shoot the round you own it so I do not discount fliers. So, my P238 churned out 2 3/4 inch groups, new gun, cold and on demand, at 17 degress above zero. Totally unacceptable for a full size gun. But, is that good enough for a P238 and the intended use? To be honest, I am more interested in how the gun performs at speed at half the distance.
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ratt_finkel
Member
I have only shot one. It was a range rental with untold round count. I was overly impressed with the gun. It feels and shoots like a much larger gun. It has moved to top of my list for next CCW purchase. I would bet 3" or smaller groups would be possible @ 25 yards in a rest. For a pocket pistol I was completely shocked. Sorry to derail.
A 50 yd head shot is FINE rifle shooting, in combat.
Especially without either "earvalve" earplugs or a suppressor on the rifle. I've been studying gunfighting for several decades now, and I;ve yet to hear of a case wherein anyone with a handgun, while actually being fired upon, reliably got hits on the chest, at 25 yds. Such shots are extremely rare in the first place, and they either seem to be one shot (ie, probablylucky fluke) or there's also lots of misses (proof that the 1-2 hits were flukes).
Do you really believe that the Feds (who missed Platt in Miami, over 40x, at 5 yds and less), really couldn't group any better than that? They outnumbered him by 8 to 1, remember, and he only had one arm to fire his Mini-14, and he was dying of a perforated lung and a cut brachial artery, to boot. Yet he killed 2 of them and wounded 5 more.
Remember Diallo, in NYC? He didn't have a gun, 4 cops shot at him 41 times, from 5 yds or less (one of them right at his feet) and got 22 hits, only one of them a solid hit, but it was fatal. He "pointed" a wallet at them, so they shot him. They must have had very little faith in their body armor!
These same cops, under the range conditions by which you guys "compare", can shoot 2-3" groups at 5 yds. You can count on that. You can also count upon your personal accuracy being degraded to no better than theirs was, when you are being fired-upon.
Especially without either "earvalve" earplugs or a suppressor on the rifle. I've been studying gunfighting for several decades now, and I;ve yet to hear of a case wherein anyone with a handgun, while actually being fired upon, reliably got hits on the chest, at 25 yds. Such shots are extremely rare in the first place, and they either seem to be one shot (ie, probablylucky fluke) or there's also lots of misses (proof that the 1-2 hits were flukes).
Do you really believe that the Feds (who missed Platt in Miami, over 40x, at 5 yds and less), really couldn't group any better than that? They outnumbered him by 8 to 1, remember, and he only had one arm to fire his Mini-14, and he was dying of a perforated lung and a cut brachial artery, to boot. Yet he killed 2 of them and wounded 5 more.
Remember Diallo, in NYC? He didn't have a gun, 4 cops shot at him 41 times, from 5 yds or less (one of them right at his feet) and got 22 hits, only one of them a solid hit, but it was fatal. He "pointed" a wallet at them, so they shot him. They must have had very little faith in their body armor!
These same cops, under the range conditions by which you guys "compare", can shoot 2-3" groups at 5 yds. You can count on that. You can also count upon your personal accuracy being degraded to no better than theirs was, when you are being fired-upon.
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M2 Carbine
member
The P238 I had was accurate but was hard pressed to get through a magazine without jamming. After something over 400 rounds and two trips to SIG I gave up on it.
Bobo
Member
Go here:
https://drive.google.com/folderview...hMS00N2NiLTljYjctNzMxYWFhZTU3YmI1&usp=sharing
Then click on the "Defensive (Combat) Accuracy" document.
Bobo
https://drive.google.com/folderview...hMS00N2NiLTljYjctNzMxYWFhZTU3YmI1&usp=sharing
Then click on the "Defensive (Combat) Accuracy" document.
Bobo
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