Education: S&W Mdl 19

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Mr. Mosin

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I need some education on the S&W Mdl 19 "Combat Magnum". The old vs the new. I know the old ones had the flat bottomed forcing cone, and a steady diet of 125 grn .357 Magnums would do... unpleasant things to the gun itself, and eventually you if you weren't careful. Did S&W modifying the frame and forcing cone fix this issue ? Are there any other issues I need to know of besides this ? Will the new M19's eat a steady helping of .357 Magnums ?

I can get over altering the frame contour, the internal lock, MIM components, I can get over all of those. Mostly. All I'm concerned with is "Is this thing gonna erupt on me if I run too many .357's through it ?". It helps me to think of it as the 1911 vs the 1911a1. I wasn't around for either of the originals, so... it doesn't really matter for a working gun.
 
The old vs the new. I know the old ones had the flat bottomed forcing cone, and a steady diet of 125 grn .357 Magnums would do... .

I cracked the forcing cone on a 1980's vintage Model 19 shooting a steady diet of maximum 158 grain jacketed bullets. Don't believe that only the 125 grainers are the problem.

The early Model 19's were developed with the idea that folks would shoot mostly 38 Special ammunition but the guns could handle 357 Magnum loads once in a while.

The current production Model 66's (stainless version of the Model 19) have been redesigned to strengthen the forcing cone area. Time will tell if S&W really fixed the forcing cone problem but it looks like they have gone in the right direction.

When the forcing cone on my Model 19 cracked, it just became difficult to index the cylinder. It did not "explode" or anything similarly catastrophic.

S&W replaced the barrel on my Model 19 but don;'t expect that kind of service these days. Mine was repaired in 1982.
 
I have not yet heard of any damage to the "new" 19 caused by use of any factory ammunition and am inclined to believe the problem has been solved. We won't be completely sure for another 30 years or so, of course.

I hope you buy one, shoot the daylights out of it, and post pictures!
 
The problem of cracked forcing cones is not limited to S&W revolvers. Search the web and you'll find cracked Ruger, Colt and Taurus wheelguns. Magnum ammo in anything will gradually produce erosion of the forcing cone (and probably other places, too). The erosion will weaken the metal, and if there is enough erosion and the pressure is high enough, the forcing cone can fail.

I imaging that forcing cone failures are pretty rare, overall. I wouldn't let fear of it prevent me from buying a gun. With today's warranties, the gun can be repaired with (probably) no cost to the owner. In the meantime, you get to shoot the gun you want to. That's what matters the most.
 
the original model 19 was a derivative of the k frame model 15 chambered for 357 magnum instead of 38 special. this allowed the use of 357 magnum in a k frame gun instead of the n frame which some patrol officers and bill Jordan felt was too heavy. it was wildly popular. it was the glock 19 of the 60's and 70's. however, a great deal of the population of law enforcement officers that carried a 19, shot mostly 38 special with it and may or may not have carried 357. for range practice, qualifying, and for some officers on patrol, 38 special remained the most popular option. that changed dramatically after the 1970 Newhall shooting where 4 chp officers were killed. without further analysis of that incident here, one of the outcomes was a determination for the need to practice and qualify with the same cartridge type that officers carried. while some departments went back to the 38 special exclusively, for good reasons, others adopted the 357 for all purposes. this created a situation where a large population of model 19's was now experiencing a high round count of 357 that far fewer individuals subjected them to previously. many model 19's survived a great deal of 357 use, but some failed.


the failures occured where the barrel face and forcing cone were relieved to make room for the ejector rod. this is the flat spot you referred to. the reason it's there is to allow for a fat ejector rod to fit under the barrel in a relatively small frame. the frame window of a k frame is small. that's what makes it compact, lightweight, and keeps the bore axis low. but with limited height in the frame window, smith and Wesson had to fit half the diameter of the ejector rod and the whole diameter barrel into the radius of the cylinder or half the height of the frame window. that is just how a da revolver works. if they made the barrel thick, the ejector rod would have to be thin. if they made the ejector rod thick, the barrel would have to be thin. the flat spot is an attempt to compromise. it worked wonderfully for 38 special in the model 10, and model 15 and for many decades. it worked very well for the model 19 too until lots of people starting shooting a high volume of 357. the reason smith and Wesson didn't make the barrel thick and the ejector rod thin is the ejector rod is one of the two things that holds the cylinder in place. the other thing is the cylinder stop that mostly serves to lock the cylinder and keep it from rotating. so the ejector rod is pretty important to holding the cylinder firmly when the gun is fired. smith and Wesson had a good reason to relieve some of the underside of the barrel to allow for a thicker ejector rod.

how to solve this problem; initially, the problem was solved with the l-frame. the solution was very simple but elaborate as well. the simplicity of the solution was to simply make the whole frame a little taller to fit a thick barrel and thick ejector rod both into the frame. what is elaborate about this is that it required a whole new frame forging and new cylinder, in-between the k frame and the n frame. the l-frame was introduced in 1980 and this solved the problem for police agencies that had adopted the practice of firing high volumes of 357 through their service revolvers. for most individuals, there was never really a widespread problem but certainly some did experience cracked forcing cones and this as was pointed out was not unique to smith and Wesson but happened to other guns as well. rugers speed six / security six line was discontinued and replaced with the gp100 for the very same reason, though the propensity for ruger s/six line revolvers to experience this issue does not get nearly as much attention whereas the smith and wessons reputation seems to be remembered by everybody that wasn't even alive back then.

more recently smith and Wesson reintroduced the k frame model 19 and 66 with a different but not a new solution. remember the dilemma was that they wanted both a fat barrel and a fat ejector rod, the latter due to the fact that the cylinder was held in place during lockup by that rod. the alternative is to hold the cylinder in place using a detent on the crane, also known as the yoke. with the yoke locking the cylinder to the frame instead of the ejector rod, the ejector rod can be thin. this is exactly how the gp100 works. take a look at the gp100 and notice how skinny the ejector rod is. that is because there is a detent on the yoke rather than on the end of the ejector rod. notice how on most smith and Wesson revolvers, the ejector rod locks on a detent at the rod's end. this arrangement favors a thick, stiff ejector rod. notice that on the gp100 and the new model 66 and 19 the ejector rod is skinny and the end of it free-floats in the barrel lug. ruger was not the first to use a detent on the yoke, however. dan Wesson revolvers also have this feature and it seems that the gp100 was inspired by the dan wesson in several ways. the first to use yoke detents as actually smith and Wesson with their 'triple lock' design of 1908 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_&_Wesson_Triple_Lock the us army requested the feature be deleted, but gunsmiths have been installing 'ball detents' on revolver yokes as a custom feature ever since. here is a gunsmith advertising the service; https://cylinder-slide.com/Item/CSM907 having a detent on the yoke of a revolver that also locks on the end of the ejector rod is like having a belt AND suspenders.

so the new model 19 and 66 do not have the area under the barrel face and forcing cone that has been thinned or flattened because they use a yoke detent and a slimmer ejector rod. they will, in theory, be more durable than the older model 19's. everyone's experience is unique though and lots of people had and continue to enjoy old model 19s without any problems, and no doubt there is someone out there who broke a new model 19.

consider that the j frame fits the same bore barrel and an ejector rod supported cylinder in an even smaller frame window. albeit the jframe cylinder is smaller and therefore does not need as stout of a rod to support it, but the j frame forcing cone is still thin for sure. you don't read nearly as many complaints about it though. perhaps some of that is because few people shoot a high volume of 357 through a j frame, but then nowadays few people shoot a high volume of 357 through old model 19's. what people do continue to do is borrow revelation in knowledge from others without any first-hand experience.

if you want an old pinned and recessed model 19 with goncalo alves stocks, there is no modern gun that is a substitute. if you just want a nice 357 revolver to shoot, the new model 19 and the new model 66 even more so are easily the best k frame design smith has ever produced. it is a superior design, as is the sleeved barrel and the mim production method assures much better consistency in a number of the revolver's components.

I would also add that many people found that the k frame was never suited to shooting 357 for reasons other than the gun's durability. there is a good reason that most law enforcement agencies responded to the outcome of the Newhall incident by standardizing their ammunition for practice, qualifying, and patrol, and they standardized on the .38 special rather than the 357. these departments never learned about the model 19's weakness because they continued to use 38 special. shooting 357 in a k frame is similar to shooting 357 in a j frame. you can do it, but a lot of people find that it is not what they want to do. the l-frame 586/686 and the gp100 solved more than just the cracked forcing cone problem. they gave the 357 platform a great deal more heft with a full underlug barrel and a more massive cylinder and frame. notice that the gp100 adopted the yoke detent way back in 1985 and therefore it could have kept the smaller s/six series frame size and beat smith and wesson to their new-model 19/66 by 29 years - the new 66 with yoke detent was introduced in 2014. but ruger enlarged the gp100 to a similar size and mass as the 586/686 in spite of perhaps not needing to because of that detent. the reason they did this is because if you really want to shoot a high volume of 357, you want a gun with the mass of an l-frame or gp100 or a dan Wesson or maybe a new python. a desire to shoot a high volume of 357 through a k frame isn't much different than a desire to shoot a lot of 357 through a j frame. its not what a lot of experienced men set out to do.

now supposing you do get an l-frame to consume that big diet of magnums. you'll probably also want a government agency to pay for the big diet. if you spent your entire stimulus check on 357 and shot it all, you would not likely get even close to harming a j frame or an old k frame with the flat spot. so if that's all you have for government support, you better dig deep into your savings if you expect to punish any revolver.
 
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The new ones have indeed eliminated the flat spot on the bottom of the forcing come. They use a ball detent lock up in the frame area now too. It should take whatever you feed it
 
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the original model 19 was a derivative of the k frame model 15 chambered for 357 magnum instead of 38 special. this allowed the use of 357 magnum in a k frame gun instead of the n frame which some patrol officers and bill Jordan felt was too heavy. it was wildly popular. it was the glock 19 of the 60's and 70's. however, a great deal of the population of law enforcement officers that carried a 19, shot mostly 38 special with it and may or may not have carried 357. for range practice, qualifying, and for some officers on patrol, 38 special remained the most popular option. that changed dramatically after the 1970 Newhall shooting where 4 chp officers were killed. without further analysis of that incident here, one of the outcomes was a determination for the need to practice and qualify with the same cartridge type that officers carried. while some departments went back to the 38 special exclusively, for good reasons, others adopted the 357 for all purposes. this created a situation where a large population of model 19's was now experiencing a high round count of 357 that far fewer individuals subjected them to previously. many model 19's survived a great deal of 357 use, but some failed.


the failures occured where the barrel face and forcing cone were relieved to make room for the ejector rod. this is the flat spot you referred to. the reason it's there is to allow for a fat ejector rod to fit under the barrel in a relatively small frame. the frame window of a k frame is small. that's what makes it compact, lightweight, and keeps the bore axis low. but with limited height in the frame window, smith and Wesson had to fit half the diameter of the ejector rod and the whole diameter barrel into the radius of the cylinder or half the height of the frame window. that is just how a da revolver works. if they made the barrel thick, the ejector rod would have to be thin. if they made the ejector rod thick, the barrel would have to be thin. the flat spot is an attempt to compromise. it worked wonderfully for 38 special in the model 10, and model 15 and for many decades. it worked very well for the model 19 too until lots of people starting shooting a high volume of 357. the reason smith and Wesson didn't make the barrel thick and the ejector rod thin is the ejector rod is one of the two things that holds the cylinder in place. the other thing is the cylinder stop that mostly serves to lock the cylinder and keep it from rotating. so the ejector rod is pretty important to holding the cylinder firmly when the gun is fired. smith and Wesson had a good reason to relieve some of the underside of the barrel to allow for a thicker ejector rod.

how to solve this problem; initially, the problem was solved with the l-frame. the solution was very simple but elaborate as well. the simplicity of the solution was to simply make the whole frame a little taller to fit a thick barrel and thick ejector rod both into the frame. what is elaborate about this is that it required a whole new frame forging and new cylinder, in-between the k frame and the n frame. the l-frame was introduced in 1980 and this solved the problem for police agencies that had adopted the practice of firing high volumes of 357 through their service revolvers. for most individuals, there was never really a widespread problem but certainly some did experience cracked forcing cones and this as was pointed out was not unique to smith and Wesson but happened to other guns as well. rugers speed six / security six line was discontinued and replaced with the gp100 for the very same reason, though the propensity for ruger s/six line revolvers to experience this issue does not get nearly as much attention whereas the smith and wessons reputation seems to be remembered by everybody that wasn't even alive back then.

more recently smith and Wesson reintroduced the k frame model 19 and 66 with a different but not a new solution. remember the dilemma was that they wanted both a fat barrel and a fat ejector rod, the latter due to the fact that the cylinder was held in place during lockup by that rod. the alternative is to hold the cylinder in place using a detent on the crane, also known as the yoke. with the yoke locking the cylinder to the frame instead of the ejector rod, the ejector rod can be thin. this is exactly how the gp100 works. take a look at the gp100 and notice how skinny the ejector rod is. that is because there is a detent on the yoke rather than on the end of the ejector rod. notice how on most smith and Wesson revolvers, the ejector rod locks on a detent at the rod's end. this arrangement favors a thick, stiff ejector rod. notice that on the gp100 and the new model 66 and 19 the ejector rod is skinny and the end of it free-floats in the barrel lug. ruger was not the first to use a detent on the yoke, however. dan Wesson revolvers also have this feature and it seems that the gp100 was inspired by the dan wesson in several ways. the first to use yoke detents as actually smith and Wesson with their 'triple lock' design of 1908 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_&_Wesson_Triple_Lock the us army requested the feature be deleted, but gunsmiths have been installing 'ball detents' on revolver yokes as a custom feature ever since. here is a gunsmith advertising the service; https://cylinder-slide.com/Item/CSM907 having a detent on the yoke of a revolver that also locks on the end of the ejector rod is like having a belt AND suspenders.

so the new model 19 and 66 do not have the area under the barrel face and forcing cone that has been thinned or flattened because they use a yoke detent and a slimmer ejector rod. they will, in theory, be more durable than the older model 19's. everyone's experience is unique though and lots of people had and continue to enjoy old model 19s without any problems, and no doubt there is someone out there who broke a new model 19.

consider that the j frame fits the same bore barrel and an ejector rod supported cylinder in an even smaller frame window. albeit the jframe cylinder is smaller and therefore does not need as stout of a rod to support it, but the j frame forcing cone is still thin for sure. you don't read nearly as many complaints about it though. perhaps some of that is because few people shoot a high volume of 357 through a j frame, but then nowadays few people shoot a high volume of 357 through old model 19's. what people do continue to do is borrow revelation in knowledge from others without any first-hand experience.

if you want an old pinned and recessed model 19 with goncalo alves stocks, there is no modern gun that is a substitute. if you just want a nice 357 revolver to shoot, the new model 19 and the new model 66 even more so are easily the best k frame design smith has ever produced. it is a superior design, as is the sleeved barrel and the mim production method assures much better consistency in a number of the revolver's components.

I would also add that many people found that the k frame was never suited to shooting 357 for reasons other than the gun's durability. there is a good reason that most law enforcement agencies responded to the outcome of the Newhall incident by standardizing their ammunition for practice, qualifying, and patrol, and they standardized on the .38 special rather than the 357. these departments never learned about the model 19's weakness because they continued to use 38 special. shooting 357 in a k frame is similar to shooting 357 in a j frame. you can do it, but a lot of people find that it is not what they want to do. the l-frame 586/686 and the gp100 solved more than just the cracked forcing cone problem. they gave the 357 platform a great deal more heft with a full underlug barrel and a more massive cylinder and frame. notice that the gp100 adopted the yoke detent way back in 1985 and therefore it could have kept the smaller s/six series frame size and beat smith and wesson to their new-model 19/66 by 29 years - the new 66 with yoke detent was introduced in 2014. but ruger enlarged the gp100 to a similar size and mass as the 586/686 in spite of perhaps not needing to because of that detent. the reason they did this is because if you really want to shoot a high volume of 357, you want a gun with the mass of an l-frame or gp100 or a dan Wesson or maybe a new python. a desire to shoot a high volume of 357 through a k frame isn't much different than a desire to shoot a lot of 357 through a j frame. its not what a lot of experienced men set out to do.

now supposing you do get an l-frame to consume that big diet of magnums. you'll probably also want a government agency to pay for the big diet. if you spent your entire stimulus check on 357 and shot it all, you would not likely get even close to harming a j frame or an old k frame with the flat spot. so if that's all you have for government support, you better dig deep into your savings if you expect to punish any revolver.
Thank you for all the wonderful info. I'm mainly interested in the new M19 because I think it would be a better all day carry belt gun than the GP100, and I don't want to take an old M19 where I go on a day to day basis.
 
I have owned probably a dozen "old" Model 19's and presently own a Model 19-9, the "new" Model 19. Smith and Wesson has indeed eliminated the flat spot on on the forcing cone.

This is the new FC on my 19-9.

FC19_zpsbodi2lvg.jpg

You can also see the ball detent just below the ejector rod shroud. That ball snaps into a recess in the yoke. Sorry, I don't have a picture of the old one to compare it to, but I suspect most know what we're talking about.

Has this fixed the problem? As others have said, we won't know for sure until some time passes, but here's what I do know. Smith and Wesson can no longer repair the old guns. They simply don't have barrels to replace them with. You might be able to find a used one somewhere, but even then you won't know how many rounds have been fired in that that barrel (most likely anyway). You might be a million rounds from failure. You might be a hundred...or less. (A little hyperbole, yes, but you get the idea.)

With the "new" guns Smith and Wesson can work on them. They have the parts, and the gun has the warranty. I shoot magnum ammo in my -9 without any worries. My 19-1 from 1962, I haven't fired yet, and I might not. If I do it will be with 38 special ammo only.

Oh, and even that's not a guarantee it seems. I have seen one Model 15 (38 Special) with a cracked forcing cone.
 
I have a model 19-4. I shoot it with .38 mostly, but I do shoot .357 in it and when I do they are 158 grain bullet loads. I have never experienced a cracked forcing cone nor do I want to.

When Smith & Wesson came out with their model 19 “Classic” I called to ask: “Will the new design handle a steady diet of all SAAMI spec’d .357 Magnum regardless of bullet weight?”
I was told “Yes, it will.”
Being thorough I asked again only rephrasing it a bit. The man, Chris, that I was speaking with said “Yes, the model 19 Classic will handle all .357 ammo that falls within SAAMI specifications.”
I should have asked for that in writing but I think I was getting on the nice gent’s nerves.
 
I have a model 19-4. I shoot it with .38 mostly, but I do shoot .357 in it and when I do they are 158 grain bullet loads. I have never experienced a cracked forcing cone nor do I want to.

When Smith & Wesson came out with their model 19 “Classic” I called to ask: “Will the new design handle a steady diet of all SAAMI spec’d .357 Magnum regardless of bullet weight?”
I was told “Yes, it will.”
Being thorough I asked again only rephrasing it a bit. The man, Chris, that I was speaking with said “Yes, the model 19 Classic will handle all .357 ammo that falls within SAAMI specifications.”
I should have asked for that in writing but I think I was getting on the nice gent’s nerves.

But this applies to all revolvers chambered in 357 Magnum. They are, after all, designed around the cartridge.

What did you expect them to say?
 
Most of my work would be done with LRN .38's and snap caps.

Howdy

The flat clearance cut at the bottom of the forcing cone on K frame 38 Special S&W revolvers has been there since at least 1905. (The Model 1899 does not have the relief cut, I'm not sure about the Model of 1902.)
If as you say you are going to be mostly shooting lead 38s, I would not worry about it.

Here is the forcing cone of my Model of 1899. No that is not a flat, it is just gridue. the forcing cone is completely round.

pmfLaxnlj.jpg




The size, or depth, of the clearance cut varied over the years. There is hardly any flat at all on this 38 M&P from 1920.

pmHM2EMQj.jpg




Much more of a flat on this 38 M&P from 1939.

po88Sromj.jpg




Here is the relief cut on my Model 19-3 that I bought brand-spanky new in 1975. No, it has not had lots and lots of 357 Magnum rounds through it in all that time, mostly lead 38 Specials.

I don't hesitate to fire standard velocity 158 grain lead 38 Special rounds in it.

plgMV7BGj.jpg
 
The proof is in the pudding, so to speak. That video converted me. You have a man that not only ran the guns, but worked on God knows how many; flat out saying that today's S&W revolvers are made better than they've ever been.
 
The proof is in the pudding, so to speak. That video converted me. You have a man that not only ran the guns, but worked on God knows how many; flat out saying that today's S&W revolvers are made better than they've ever been.

Yeah, well, I love my Smith&Wessons but the last 3 new ones I have purchased have gone back to the factory for one thing or another. One went back a second time and it is going back a third time. I like S&W guns but I will not say their modern revolvers are made better than the older models. Especially when the problems I have encountered should have been caught in QC before they ever left the factory.
 
Yeah, well, I love my Smith&Wessons but the last 3 new ones I have purchased have gone back to the factory for one thing or another. One went back a second time and it is going back a third time. I like S&W guns but I will not say their modern revolvers are made better than the older models. Especially when the problems I have encountered should have been caught in QC before they ever left the factory.
QC is different than the design....
 
Howdy

I have seen that video before. Towards the beginning he clearly states that many of the 51 problems he talks about with the old S&W revolvers were caused by kitchen table gunsmiths who did not know what they were doing. And he also mentions that some of the problems are simply because the guns are old and worn.

My experience with the only two new S&W revolvers I own, one which was brand new in the box, was that they both had problems that would not have gotten out the door in the old days.

In my very humble opinion, S&W is performing far fewer in process quality checks than they used to. Having worked in industry for many years I know that the more QC checks you have in the manufacturing stream, the more you raise the cost to manufacture. Clearly, again in my humble opinion, S&W today is letting the customer be the final QC inspector, often catching problems that should not have gotten out the door in the first place.

I will not be buying any more new S&W revolvers, there are plenty of terrific old ones still on the market, often costing less than a brand new one.
 
My experience with the model 19 is limited, but not a success. It makes a great .38 Special +P gun, but is marginal for the .357 magnum. I sold my model 19 and kept my model 15's to shoot as range and home guns. The balance, handling and accuracy of the model 15's, makes them great .38 Specials. I think S&W went to far with the model 19 and 66.
For mid-size .357 magnum use, I prefer RUGER'S Security six or a GP-100 with a half lugged, four inch barrel. If S&W would bring back a non full lugged 686, they would have a great shooter.

Jim
 
Smith and Wesson Customer Service. 1-800-331-0852. Call them and ask. I have used them several times, always gave me good info.
 
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