S&W Mdl. 36 New Production

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Mr. Mosin

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Do y’all think there is any hope of S&W ever re-releasing the Mdl 36 w/o the internal lock ? I don’t mind the MIM parts, nor the frame mounted firing pin; but I dislike the confounded internal lock. Or of S&W possibly re-releasing the original Centennial (Mdl 42, I think) ? I hate S&W’s numbering system.
 
I am not much help, but I would be happy to find any new j frame without the internal lock. I only rarely see them - usually when i am broke.

I have peepaw’s model 36 which i love to shoot, but as it has sentimental value i dont want to carry it every day.

I did change the grip though.
 
Do y’all think there is any hope of S&W ever re-releasing the Mdl 36 w/o the internal lock ? I don’t mind the MIM parts, nor the frame mounted firing pin; but I dislike the confounded internal lock. Or of S&W possibly re-releasing the original Centennial (Mdl 42, I think) ? I hate S&W’s numbering system.

You will have to ask S&W, or rather request. If they see the market interest is there, they might get rid of the lock, the MIM, but you know, I doubt it. If you want one with all the features you desire, look on the used market.
 
https://www.originalprecision.com/reviews-and-pictures.html
It gets tiring to write emails/letters or make phone calls for things out of one's control, especially with places like S&W.
The less-stress method for me was just to buy some plugs to replace the locks in my revolvers which have the locks. As I recall, the delivered price from the referenced website was ~$44.

So far, S&W only seems to make some models lockless using the Centennial or hidden-hammer models, and even then, not all the models come without the lock for some internal reason. I would have thought there would be a civilly-legal way for S&W to get out of its old Clinton-era lock/safety agreement by now, but apparently S&W's management doesn't seem to think so.
 
Some folks are moving to the Ruger LCR series (which I think had an internal lock but under the grips and not seen). I've heard some good things about the LCR series but I've not yet even held one. I keep spending firearm money in other directions/places.:)
 
Answer: they're not removing the lock feature from a SA/DA revolver model with an exposed hammer spur. A child can cock the hammer and pull the trigger in single-action. Whereas a child with sufficient hand strength to pull a double-action-only trigger is farther outside the intended scope of this safety feature.

While I can appreciate the aesthetic concern with regard to the lock holes, why isn't there equal indignation at the tasteless and hideous logo, brand, and model designation emblazoning frequently done by Ruger, Kimber and Taurus on their revolvers? At least the lock hole is small and serves a mechanical function. What function does giant, laser-etched "MATCH CHAMPION, RUGER GP-100" serve? Then there's the Super Redhawks which seem to have the entire manual printed on their side and where they chamber more than one cartridge, the barrel and the cylinder list all of them twice. At least Ruger does offer some other models with perhaps the least amount of lettering scrawled on them. Kimber's only offering has "Kimber" engraved on it at least four times, Kimber, Kimber, Kimber, Kimber, plus a giant K6S logo. Then there's the TAURUS RAGING JUDGE MAGNUM TRACKER printed in poster size apparently so near-sighted bears can make it out at 30 yards.

Hardly anybody mentions this stuff, but they're offended, they say, to the point of refusing to buy S&W because of a relatively tiny safety mechanism they say ruins the aesthetics. Maybe the hole isn't appropriate on a heavily-customized presentation piece, like a show car with shaved door handles, but if it's just a production gun, why does it matter? People aren't offended by the aesthetics. They're not offended because the feature is driven by something other than customer demand (do customers demand the read-the-manual safety warnings on most guns?). No. Their also not offended by the feature causing failures. In 20 years that just hasn't materialized as a serious concern justified by meaningful evidence. No. They're offended because they perceive the lock feature was driven by demand from their enemy.

But this narrative of the "enemy" authoring the locks is both inaccurate and incomplete. Anyone who thinks Hillary Clinton had something meaningful to do with it is completely deluded by myth. But the popular name, "Hillary Hole" persists because it serves this false narrative and for no other reason.
 
Here are my assertions regarding the origin of the S&W internal revolver lock.

In the late 1990's the handgun market was going through a total disruption. S&W had dominated this market in the US for decades and decades. It was also practically the only market S&W was in. They didn't have a lot of other products or merchandise. Handgun customers were overwhelmingly purchasing automatics instead of revolvers. Also, they were buying polymer-framed guns, which S&W did not offer, but competitors like Glock did. With respect to S&W's traditional law-enforcement and government customers, this was overwhelmingly the case.

S&W was about to be ruined by competitors that were offering something S&W had not even foreseen as appealing: inexpensive polymer automatics for duty use. These guns were, after all, completely anti-thematic to nearly 150 years of S&W tradition that regarded handguns as products carefully crafted by skilled machinists to be used by unique individuals as weapons in the defense of their life and in the pursuit of justice. Glock had no legacy of machining, no tradition of craftsmanship, no experience building weapons, and the people who would produce them would have no regard for the product any different than if they were making sewing machines or blenders. To get S&W to realize the monumental shift that was occurring in their business would take a generational turnover. It doesn't even seem plausible to believe that people who worked at S&W wanted to make this change, but the company's continuing existence depended on it. It's owners, a British company called Tomkins PLC, however, just wanted to be rid of it as it did not fit the agenda for their own restructuring in the automotive and industrial markets (they make Gates belts and hoses and Ideal brand clamps among other things).

If things weren't bad enough, in 1998, there came the Tobacco Master Settlement Agreement. Big Tobacco was being forced to pay hundreds of billions of dollars in this settlement. Investors knew guns could be next. S&W already had over 20 lawsuits pending against it. In such an environment, how could anyone expect this business to be capitalized?

Robert L. Scott, 10 years a S&W Vice President, had already seen the writing on the wall, disillusioned with Tomkins leadership, he left S&W to start Saf-T-Hammer corporation in Arizona. Saf-T-Hammer made trigger locks, secure storage products, and a device that disconnected the firing pin, which promised to be more elegant than a Master Lock in the trigger guard, but was widely reported as dysfunctional. In 1999, the "Gun Tests" publication tested similar products from about eight different companies and reported, "A member of our staff visited the Saf-T-Hammer booth at the 1999 Shot Show and could not get the hammer back in place..." Some people have compared it to Cylinder & Slide's more functional device: http://www.cylinder-slide.com/cond5.shtml It was a company that employed a total of 5 people. They were in a market that was a secure distance from the legal risks firearms manufacturers were enduring, and they didn't make anything more nefarious than the kind of padlocks or trigger locks that litter gun stores and new gun boxes today.

Can we agree that gun locks like the ones included in almost every sale of a firearm aren't evil? Responsible firearm owners need to securely store every firearm not on their person. For some people, the drawer of their nightstand or the glovebox of their car is secure. People with children need a better way to securely store their firearms when they're away. We might not appreciate a cable-lock or clamshell trigger-lock, but are those over-priced gypsum-lined steel cabinets sold as "gun safes" better? They sure lighten your wallet and load your floor more, but they're a scam. We know they don't meaningfully prevent theft or fire damage better than a token padlock. Besides, do people that just own a cheap plastic S&W SD9 really need a Fort Knox that costs more than the gun, maybe even a 100-times more than the gun to store it? Is gun ownership only for people in the US who can afford a luxury storage solution and professional movers every time they relocate? Or is the humble gun latch a symbol of freedom that says we can store our guns unsecured, or secured according to our conscience and not only enclosed in accordance with requirements of California Penal Code Section 120126.1(c)?

Saf-T-Hammer Chairman Mitchell A. Saltz, it seems, had some money to spend on something bigger than a lock company. Specifically, he had Colton Melby's money along with another associate from Arizona, James Joseph Minder. He was also willing to bet on the risk of at least 20 lawsuits, mostly from municipalities alleging that a handgun maker's manufacture and distribution of weapons has been negligent or has caused a public nuisance by contributing to crimes and accidental deaths. He correctly foresaw those suits being tossed. He also already employed Bob Scott who knew the operations inside and out and wouldn't take up to a year to learn them. So he bought S&W from the British "Tomkins PLC" for a mere $15 million. Tomkins had paid $112 million, and Saltz and his investors would eventually spin it into AOBC with a present market capitalization of over $500 million.

Melby, the money-man, was best known for being the boyfriend of Paula Abdul. Minder, it turns out, was a former hold-up man known for carrying a sawed-off 16 gauge shotgun, and who served time in prison for a string of armed robberies, a bank heist, an attempted prison escape, and again for robbing a store while he was attending university. He would later be chairman of S&W.

The truth is, it was these guys, Saltz, Scott, Melby, and Minder that put that lock on there. The fact is, saying Paula Abdul put it there is closer to the truth than saying Hillary Clinton did it.

Notice I haven't mentioned anyone in the Clinton administration until now. That's because they didn't have anything to do with Saf-T-Hammer. No one in the Clinton administration had any meaningful influence over Saf-T-Hammer, and before it bought S&W from Tomkins, it was not regulated in any meaningful way nor did it have any money or legal problems. They made gun locks. They employed 5 people. Bush was President, and they had $15 million burning a hole in their pocket and probably then some because they were willing to take on over $50 million of S&W's debt.

Going back to 2000, a year before Saf-T-Hammer acquired S&W, Tomkins made a deal with the Clinton administration to settle pending and threatened Clinton-DOJ, as well as several state and local lawsuits. According to the Wall Street Journal article on the subject, "The deal required S&W to put external locks on its guns and to sell only to dealers that agreed to certain conditions." (emphasis added) Consider that Tomkins did not have an internal lock. They could not agree to put something on the gun that they did not have. They certainly could not have agreed to put Saf-T-Hammer's lock on the guns. They might have agreed to do something undetermined in the future, and it turns out that's what most of this agreement was about.

The agreement was announced by the Clinton administration in this press release: http://web.archive.org/web/20170109174933/https://clinton3.nara.gov/WH/New/html/20000317_2.html Note this is not the actual text of the agreement, but how the Clinton Administration presented it to the press.

The agreement is like a "wish-list" with internal locking devices on pistols within 24 months, smart guns within 36 months, 10-round magazine limits on all firearms, sales only to dealers that require safety training, and no sales of semi-automatic assault weapons and a prohibition of sales of more than one handgun to a customer every 14 days. Which of these things has S&W not completely and blatantly ignored? I mean, they practically got into the AR-15 business just to flaunt this agreement.

History tells us Tomkins made this agreement to end the lawsuits and enter into a "preferred buying program" from the municipalities that had been suing them, and they were awarded a $1.7 million grant to develop "smart guns," all of which they hoped would offset the losses from an anticipated consumer boycott. The boycott was immediate, the preferred buyer program was alleged to be illegal, smart guns weren't feasible, and the agreement proved to be unenforceable.

When Saf-T-Hammer bought S&W, "Mr. Saltz said that the new owners would re-examine the deal with the government. His lawyers have told him 'that there are certain things in those agreements that can be interpreted in more than one way,' he said, declining to elaborate further."

Just as sure as S&W sells AR-15's, pistols without an internal lock, more than one handgun at a time, magazines with a capacity greater than ten, and no "smart guns," the lock on the revolver has nothing to do with the Tomkins agreement with the Clinton administration.

In fact, the Huff Post reported that S&W Holding (Saf-T-Hammer) broke the deal its predecessor had made completely, “A key element of its strategy was openly repudiating the terms of the Clinton gun safety deal and introducing a new line of high-capacity pistols and its first-ever, assault-style rifle, which became top-sellers for the company. The turnaround was facilitated by the Bush administration, which failed to enforce the terms of the gun-safety deal and aided Smith & Wesson with major new federal contracts.”

The fact is, the Bush administration was already in place in May of 2001 when Saf-T-Hammer acquired S&W. The Clinton-era deal was already dead. Jon Cowan, former president of Americans for Gun Safety said, “The Bush administration was deeply in the pocket of the NRA and decided not to enforce this agreement.”

The Wall Street Journal reported as early as 2001 that S&W Holding (Saf-T-Hammer) executives and a HUD official with the Bush administration (HUD was responsible for enforcing the agreement) both claimed the Clinton deal was considered non-binding. “HUD is not enforcing it,” the official told the Journal. “In fact, HUD is not doing anything with it.”

Do you think Saf-T-Hammer's investors would have bought S&W without knowing the new (Bush) administration would toss the agreement? They knew before they bought it. They had 7 months to work it out with the new administration.

So where did the lock come from? After the agreement, the boycott, the dissolution of the agreement, and the sale of S&W to Saf-T-Hammer, the Wall Street Journal reported, "Mr. Scott, who will relocate to Springfield to direct Smith & Wesson, said some Saf-T-Hammer products may be incorporated into the guns 'where they work and where they make sense.'"

Bob Scott was still in Arizona. His boss had just bought S&W for some investors and as the president of Saf-T-Hammer, he was personally under no constraint by this agreement with the Clinton administration which had by then all appearances of having fallen apart, and which Scott almost certainly knew was "non-binding" at that point. But he believed a Saf-T-Hammer product could be incorporated into a Smith and Wesson gun where it worked and where it made sense.

The fact is, the revolver lock does work. In fact, it's remarkable how incredibly well it works compared to the reports from 1999 on previous Saf-T-Hammer products which must have been embarrassingly bad. There are those few legends of failure out there, but I know these reports are not the cause of the vehement hatred of these locks. Ruger transfer bars have a far higher failure rate than S&W internal locks, and they don't earn nearly as much scorn. It is certainly because the S&W revolver locks are incorrectly associated with the Tomkins-Clinton agreement with which Saf-T-Hammer had nothing to do and was never under any obligation to uphold.

As we know, Saf-T-Hammer renamed itself to Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation and announced its intention to acquire many other synergistic brands and after numerous substantial acquisitions became American Outdoor Brands Corporation. The original investors like Colton Melby eventually stepped down amid controversy with the SEC about late earnings disclosures. He's currently chairman and chief executive of ORHUB, a SaaS-based healthcare data analytics company -- they host apps for operating rooms. He's not with Paula anymore either. Minder, who had become chairman of S&W, stepped down after it was disclosed that he had been convicted of a string of armed robberies. He remained as a director for some time thereafter. Bob Scott is still Vice Chairman of the Board for AOBC since 1999. Nobody has served on that board longer than him, and he was at S&W for 10 years before that. More than 30 years at the top of S&W. When the company was just five people he said he'd put that lock on there. It's just as good as he put that lock on there personally.

I tell you what. You go tell Bob Scott that's a "Hillary Hole" and that Clinton put that on there.
 
Iabnoti,
Thank you for that write up. I would like to copy and send that to a friend that has issues with S&W and their kowtowing to the Clinton administration.

Mr. Mosin,
I own two S&W’s with the dreaded “lock”. Both are .357 Magnum guns that do get fired in .357 Magnum a lot. They are:
Model 327 Night Guard, 8 shot, N frame, 28 ounces.
Model 60 Pro, 5 shot, J frame, 23.4 ounces.

Both of these guns are light as compared to other .357 Magnum revolvers. Especially the model 60 Pro which is quite invigorating when fired with .357 Magnum loads. You would think a lock might fail and lock one of these guns up by itself when fired with heavy loads at some point. This has never happened with either one of them.

I have activated and deactivated these locks numerous times to see if manipulation could lead to an unwanted activation. It has not.

I would not hesitate to buy another S&W with the lock. As a matter of fact I plan to do so very soon. I plan to buy a model 617, 10 shot, .22l LR with a 4” barrel. The funny thing is the fact that it had this lock never entered into my thinking until now. It won’t change my mind regarding the gun.

If it’s aesthetics that you are worried about the lock opening is very small.

I get a kick out of folks that lose their minds over these locks and thump their chests in dramatic protest over them. Now, everyone is free to spend their money as they see fit, but the way I spend my money is my business and no one else’s and I need no one else’s approval to purchase what I wish.

When I was purchasing my model 60 Pro I was in Oregon. I could pay for and take home my handgun the same day. There was no waiting period.
When I was standing at the counter waiting to speak with a clerk about buying the gun there were two other guys looking at all the guns in the S&W section and complaining vehemently to each other about S&W’s and their “Hillary Holes”. (Iabnoti’s post reminded me of this term and this encounter)
One of these guys turns to me and says “Are you buying one of these?”
I told him I was and which one I wanted.
He went into preaching mode to sway me away from the purchase and I won’t bore you with a blow by blow of his diatribe, which was quite comical, but he finished with “...if you want a quality revolver without supporting these traitors but a Ruger SP101.”
I said “Thank you...buy it for me.”
He looked puzzled and said “What?”
I said “Buy it for me.”
He said “Why in the **** would I do that?”
I said “You think I should have something else put your money where your mouth is and buy it for me. Otherwise shut the **** up and move on. You bore me.”
He mumbled something under his breath and he and his buddy moved on.

You see, he wasn’t the first person I have had similar conversations with. Most folks that turn their noses up at the locks have little or no experience with them. I know that only having two guns with the locks is not extensive experience but it is experience nonetheless.
If folks don’t want to spend their money on these guns with locks that is their business. If I wish to, that is mine.

Now as to new S&Ws without locks, L2 is correct. The only models without locks are hammerless or hidden hammer models. The only ones I have seen in person have been model 442s.

Good luck. I am sure if you opt for a new 36 you will be happy with it.
 
Do y’all think there is any hope of S&W ever re-releasing the Mdl 36 w/o the internal lock ? I don’t mind the MIM parts, nor the frame mounted firing pin; but I dislike the confounded internal lock. Or of S&W possibly re-releasing the original Centennial (Mdl 42, I think) ? I hate S&W’s numbering system.
S&W makes all their Centennial framed J frames with and without the ILS because the majority of law enforcement would not buy them as backups with the lock. Those guns are also open to the public, I bought a no lock M442 when they did their first run. That tells us they can legally produce them and they are not in fear of liability. Why they won't offer together frames without the ILS is a mystery to me???
 
S&W makes all their Centennial framed J frames with and without the ILS because the majority of law enforcement would not buy them as backups with the lock. ...

Where is the evidence of that? Why wouldn't they buy them with a lock? What difference does it make to law enforcement?
 
Do y’all think there is any hope of S&W ever re-releasing the Mdl 36 w/o the internal lock ?
You're more likely to see the Ayatollah Khamenei eating chitlins and swilling a Bud Lite.

S&W is passive aggressively wedded to the Hillary Hole as a finger in the eye to its potential customers. I don't see it going anywhere any time soon.
 
Where is the evidence of that? Why wouldn't they buy them with a lock? What difference does it make to law enforcement?
Really? Here is how the ILS works. There is a tiny little spring the keeps the lock from engaging. If the spring fails the gun locks itself and is unusable.

A backup gun for a LEO is a gun used it things to very wrong. It's your last line of defense to keep you alive. If your gun locks when you need it most you will probably get hurt or worse. Yes, I know it's unlikely the lock will engage but if you are in the streets and have to go to the gun shots instead of run would you take a chance on your gun locking itself when your life may depend upon it working? I know I wouldn't.

IMO the lock would be much safer if the default condition was disengaged instead of engaged. That's all I'm going to say on this because it's been beaten to death and then again. I only said this because you asked.
 
Strangely so "small" that it's common practice to only show the right side of S&W revolvers that have it.

I've noticed that too. I guess S&W is not too proud of "The Hole".


I get a kick out of folks that lose their minds over these locks and thump their chests in dramatic protest over them.
I can't remember the last time I thumped my chest ; don't think I've ever done that.
I do , however remember , stating that the only reason I would ever take possession of a Smith w/hole would be if I knew I could flip it , in fact I am restating that right now.

None of this is really consistent with the inquiry of the OP , but if you wish to express your indignation over my indignation , well , I'm there for you Mr Riot.
Now , excuse me while I search for my mind - I lost it in a great big Hillary Hole.
 
Why do you think it's the only J frame S&W reintroduced without the ILS? Read my above post please.

Because they have no hammer spur and the hammer is enclosed. It's not because they're "backup" guns that somehow need to be more "reliable" than any other gun, but its because they're DAO. Cops like J frames with hammer spurs for BUG's but S&W does not offer them without the lock. Go figure.
 
I can't believe people can still call this a "Hillary Hole" in this thread where I already pointed out the lock was introduced during the Bush administration by Saf-T-Hammer corporation who fully understood that Bush's HUD (the government agency charged with enforcing the Clinton agreement that S&W would put locks on all guns, not produce semi-automatic rifles and greater than 10 round magazines) had announced it was non-binding and they were not going to enforce it or "do anything with it." There is no Clinton agreement. There has not been a Clinton agreement since Bush came into office in 2001 and Saf-T-Hammer bought S&W five months after that, and then put their lock on the revolvers while simultaneously breaking every single item in the Clinton agreement.

The man responsible for the "hole" is Bob Scott -- president and founder of Saf-T-Hammer corporation, which bought S&W in 2001. He is currently the vice chairman of the board. The most popular theory about why the lock remains on SA/DA revolvers is that deleting a safety feature would open the company to liability in a suit, but this theory is entirely based on the notion that S&W was somehow required to put them on there in the first place. They were not, and never were. I have shown the evidence that it is absolutely certain that S&W was never required to put the lock on there, but that they did it because of Bob Scott's personal decision.
 
I'm not part of the S&W agreement/disagreement as to which Presidential administration is involved. I just want to point out this website which appears to detail the agreement. As far as I can tell, S&W believes it needs to keep making, especially the external hammer types of its revolvers, with the subject locking mechanism. Hopefully, the referenced website doesn't go away too soon:

https://clintonwhitehouse4.archives.gov/WH/New/html/20000317_2.html
 
I'm not part of the S&W agreement/disagreement as to which Presidential administration is involved. I just want to point out this website which appears to detail the agreement. As far as I can tell, S&W believes it needs to keep making, especially the external hammer types of its revolvers, with the subject locking mechanism. Hopefully, the referenced website doesn't go away too soon:

https://clintonwhitehouse4.archives.gov/WH/New/html/20000317_2.html


I linked that in post #7. That was from 2000 when Tomkins owned S&W. They never installed internal the locks and would not have been required to until 2002 under that agreement. But by 2001, the Bush administration had declared they would not enforce it or do anything with it. After this, Saf-T-Hammer bought S&W and went on to break every single item in the agreement.

Also, web archives keep pages like that indefinitely even after the original host is gone.
 
This is my theory about Mr. Scott's decision to put locks on revolvers. I have previously shown solid evidence that it was his decision alone and he was not compelled by anything or anyone to do it, but I can only speculate as to why he chose to do so. Mr. Scott could have wanted the lock in first place and might not support removing the lock because it is like his signature contribution to a legend. The man left S&W after ten years as VP because he was disgruntled with Tomkins leadership that drove the company into the ground and nearly ruined it. He left to lead a gun lock company in Arizona. The gun lock company was a humiliation. The products were horribly bad. Mr. Scott was personally embarrassed when he himself tried to demonstrate the products before a government review board and could not operate them. This was reported by Gun Tests magazine which also panned the products as worthless.

When you're in business and everything and everyone is telling you that your products, your business, your career and your whole life stinks, some people will do anything to defy them. That means they will also deny what their critics are saying. At that point, there was no way that Bob was going to admit that the locks sucked. Instead, he was more determined than ever to prove everyone wrong about everything. He knew that Tompkins wanted out of S&W and that things could be turned around under the Bush administration. He and his partner Saltz went to Colton Melby to get a loan to buy S&W. They confirmed the Clinton agreement was non-binding and they'd be free to take S&W in the direction they wanted. The direction they set from that point was to acquire numerous synergistic brands and diversify. When they bought S&W, Bob declared his determination to include Saf-T-Hammer products in the guns in an interview with the WSJ.

Bob did just that. Then he turned S&W around, began competing with Glock instead of just losing to it, introduced S&W AR-15's, and more importantly, diversified the business with acquisitions which came to be known as AOBC.

Now some people think he should agree to deleting the locks because customers don't want them. They think that S&W should just offer customers what they want. But this idea isn't substantiated by the ridiculous graphics and read the manual warnings on competitor revolvers. Some customers don't want those things either, but they get them anyway. S&W is no different in this respect. If customers want custom guns, they can get them. The holes can be welded or plugged.

Other people want to motivate S&W and Mr. Scott with an appeal to his selfish interests and suggest that S&W would sell so many more revolvers if they didn't have the lock. S&W sells a very small number of revolvers compared to the number of Shields they sell, much less all their other pistols. The margins on revolvers are thin. The bottom line is Bob, when he was CEO, was far better off looking at adding acquisitions to AOBC's portfolio than he was trying to sell more revolvers. Even today they are better off looking at buying something like Dillon or Magpul rather than listening to an ignoramus that complains about a "Hillary Hole" on their revolver.
 
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