English Big Cats

[Iain]

Ever heard of the ''Beast of Bodmin''?

Every year in England there are a handful of reported sightings of ''large cats'', usually described as panthers. An escaped lynx has been shot here and a very large cat was also shot in Scotland (turned out to be genetic freakery due to breeding between Scottish wildcats and domestic cats). The theories suggest that panthers or leopards were released from private collections when legislation was tightened.

Before you laugh

From The Times October 28th 1976

Not a very good image.

http://www.geocities.com/bellow_it/

Britain passed the Dangerous Wild Animals Act in 1976, an Act which prohibited the keeping of dangerous wild animals without a licence. It's been suggested that many owners of such animals, unable to comply with the expensive terms of a licence and unwilling to have their pets destroyed, have released their animals into the wild. .....

....Pumas and leopards have been spotted roaming about the countryside with their young, according to a leading expert. Zoologist Quentin Rose warns that unless something is done, there will be a population explosion of the cats within 20 years. "I would estimate that there are around 100 cats loose in the British countryside and in some of those areas I know there is more than one big cat because they have been breeding," he said.

There have been reports of sheep with their throats ripped out and farmyard dogs viciously killed by ''large cats''.

Any of you guys fancy coming over here and ending the debate with a kill?

 

[Art Eatman]

Yeah, I've read of this before...

What? Your government isn't protecting you? Not protecting farm animals? Not protecting pets? My, my. Whatever is government for?

Sorry. What with airport "security" and the thievery, and the hassle of moving about with firearms, I'll just stay here, thank you.

, Art

 

[Duncan Idaho]

I'll second what Art said. Great-great grandpa Coop left Manchester and the crumbling Empire for a reason. I'll respect him and his decision by never going back.

Ta!

 

[Beaker]

While there may be periodic escapees from exotic petkeepers, I seriously doubt that a 100-lb plus predatory cat which normally has a territorial range of up to 100 square miles could sustain a breeding population in a nation with virtually no uninhabited wildlands without a confirmed sighting or dead animal.

 

[Iain]

Well thanks for the ''England is bad mmmkay'' mantra.

To the serious poster

Not a very good image but you can see the population centres of the South East, Central Midlands and North. Look in the centre of Wales, the South-West but certainly the North of England and Scotland.

In the more pressured environs would they maintain ranges of the size you quote? There are literally millions of rabbits in this country, that is the theory behind how they survive.

Lot of myth and legend around the Beast, to quote one site:

during the British army's hunt for the Exmoor beast, the creature was trapped and surrounded in a barn. When the troopers went into the building, it was found to be empty. It has even been suggested that these creatures come from a parallel universe, slipping in and out of our dimension.

 

[Art Eatman]

Face it, St Johns, England/Scotland have long had a reputation for significant effort in maintaining quality hunting. Our shotgunning derives directly from your efforts in design of guns and sporting uses. Your country has long had a high reputation for quality firearms.

That was then, this is now.

YOUR people create YOUR problems. Fools brought in unsuitable animals as pets. Other fools dreamed up expensive and overly complicated paperwork to try to control the situation. Human nature did the rest, leading to neither pets nor controls thereof.

And the Lord said to Murgatroyd, "You've been a good man, all your life. I'll grant you any one wish you like." Murgatroyd responded that since he was afraid of flying, he wanted a bridge to Hawaii for access for a vacation. The Lord explained that it would use up too much of the resources of the earth, and was thus an unsound idea. "Anything else?" "Well," said Murgatroyd, "I'd like to understand the mind of the anti-gun Liberal."

"You want two lanes or four, on that bridge?"

God save the Queen.

Art

 

[mete]

New Jersey has now admitted that they have introduced mountain lions in the pine barrens, near fort dix, to cut down the large deer population. NY is still in denial.

 

[Iain]

Since when was this good humoured thread, asking some knowledgeable people a serious question about whether they think this is possible, about the ''evils'' of England?

Nice way to make a Brit feel welcome, and from a mod too.

Now:

Was shot on the Norfolk/Suffolk border.

Shot on the Isle of Wight.

Hunting is still legal with bolt-actions.

 

[Iain]

Is this what a cougar type deer kill looks like?

 

[Duncan Idaho]

Nice way to make a Brit feel welcome, and from a mod too.

You Brits do nothing to make Americans welcome, so why should you be miffed if we reciprocate? You used to be our cousins. You used to be capable of greatness. Now you seem (to me at the very least) to be living in some sort of warped universe where helplessness is considered a virtue!

I live on a small island. If a cat that could bring down deer was running around loose among the children and elderly, we would grab our guns, hunt the S.O.B. down, and kill it like a Lobsterback at Yorktown.

Problem solved.

I reckon that you folks may just have to wring your hands, or bang on pots with a ladle, or do whatever it is you do in these situations. Call a bobby or something. I don't know what to tell you.

 

[MicroBalrog]

Now you seem (to me at the very least) to be living in some sort of warped universe where helplessness is considered a virtue!

Dear Duncan,

You seem to be creating this really big generalisation.

Did St.Johns seem to you to be like that?

Or do you think Zedicus, Steven Kendrick, Sean Gabb are like that? No? So get back to the High Road.

 

[Iain]

So, I've made you feel unwelcome?

Anyway to get back on topic:

Releasing a non-native animal into the wild in Britain was not a criminal offence until the early 1980's. Reports of cats in the wild have skyrocketed since the 1960's. Evidence I have read today points towards it being pumas or cougars whichever term you prefer.

You guys don't like them I believe, they do kill people occasionally.

A short time after in the afternoon - this was late afternoon - my son, who was about 19 at the time, came charging into the office, shouting, "The pumas are out, the pumas are out." So we put the emergency procedure into action, and all shot out. When we got there all the pumas were there, correct. He showed me where he saw these two pumas, they'd been going up and down in the leaves at the side of the pen. There was not a sign of them. He said that he knew they were pumas, he was brought up with pumas as a lad.

from a public debate held in Cornwall. The speaker is the owner of Dartmoor Wildlife Park.

from www.pcfe.ac.uk/cats/debate

There are no confirmed reports of hurt to humans, there is a 30,000 pound reward for a photograph.

 

[MicroBalrog]

I have a vision of thousands of people combing the countryside with cameras.

 

[Iain]

It's happened, the initial reward was for a corpse. There were so many people walking about with guns looking for it that the newspaper changed the terms.

Also from the same source as quoted above: there is approximately one sighting every 28-35 days. Some will of course be domestic cats where the scale is misinterpreted and some will be dogs.

Felicity was very tame and captured in 1980

''It was reported that a prisoner serving a sentence at Winchester Prison, David Carter, claimed he had released a pair of pumas near Cannich and Felicity was one of these. Detective John Cathcart, who was called in to investigate, said all the details could have been gleamed by the man from press reports. It is interesting, however, that the sightings of pumas in the Cannich area did not end with the capture of Felicity.
Chris Smith, Scottish Big Cats''

 

[Art Eatman]

St Johns, your very first post concluded with, "Any of you guys fancy coming over here and ending the debate with a kill?"

Possibly I misunderstood. It looked to me like a plea for help. One is generally uninterested in helping those who have put themselves into some problem position, when the position resulted from an avoidance of reality...

Overall, I find the situation highly amusing, with parallels here in the U.S. There is ongoing denial of the existence of lions in many areas, although the sightings have been made by people who know what they are seeing.

There is also denial of the potential for harm to people from the presence of these "They aren't here!" critters, usually by those who believe "Bambi" is a documentary.

The mountain lion is known by several names: Puma, cougar, panther (colloquially, "painter"). Usage seems to be a function of where one is in the U.S. While there are some minor differences due to isolation of populations (Florida, e.g.), they all interbreed.

Lions generally first go for the paunch of a fresh kill. They get some needed elements from the partially digested grasses, as well as from such parts as the liver. They commonly hide the remains and later return to the kill and eat from the hams, back and shoulders. A 100-pound lion can drag a 500-pound elk a surprising distance. That dead deer does look like the remains of a fresh kill.

Of all the exotic cats, only the margay, the smallest, is readily tamed into "pethood". With full maturity, all the rest can suddenly become hostile and very dangerous.

Art

 

[Iain]

I was joking Art, though if anybody is good with a camera then they are welcome to come have a go at the 30,000 pound prize then they are more than welcome. Course if they want to teach me to track cougars and say recieve, say 10% cut, then they are welcome to that too.

Art - when you say lions, you mean African lions? That is a little more scary. Lots of confusion of the term ''panther'' most take it to mean melanistic leopards, of which there are believed to be some in the UK too.

Thing I have also read about cougars is their hunting technique sometimes involves hitting the target at high enough speed to break ribs. Or that they are so quiet that victims are completely unaware until there are teeth in the head.

Does this look like a cougar attack?

Would be very interested in reports of ''alien'' cats in the US.

 

[Duncan Idaho]

So, I've made you feel unwelcome?

Your entire country has.

You seem to be creating this really big generalisation.

Perhaps in your opinion. If your opinion begins to matter to me, I'll be sure to let you know.

Did St.Johns seem to you to be like that?

Yes

Or do you think Zedicus, Steven Kendrick, Sean Gabb are like that?

What are you talking about?

So get back to the High Road.

See above

 

[Iain]

Maybe you should get back on topic or get off the thread.

Keep the personal insults to yourself.

 

[Duncan Idaho]

Maybe you should get back on topic or get off the thread.

You asked:

Any of you guys fancy coming over here and ending the debate with a kill?

I answered.

Keep the personal insults to yourself.

My answers reflected my honest opinion. If you choose to see them as insults, that is your prerogative.

St Johns, your very first post concluded with, "Any of you guys fancy coming over here and ending the debate with a kill?"

To which you answered:

I was joking Art,

Since that is the case, then what is the topic of this thread?

 

[MicroBalrog]

then what is the topic of this thread?

The presence/absence of large felinde predators in the UK and their danger to humans.

 

[Tamara]

I live on a small island. If a cat that could bring down deer was running around loose among the children and elderly, we would grab our guns, hunt the S.O.B. down, and kill it like a Lobsterback at Yorktown.

*snicker* "...and then we'd get locked up by Wildlife Management agents and have our jail cells picketed by PETA members while newscasters described us as barbarians on the Teevee."

Careful, Duncan, we're a lot closer to the situation you decry than the idealized one you paint.

 

[Duncan Idaho]

The presence/absence of large felinde predators in the UK and their danger to humans.

If that is the case, then it is off topic. This is a hunting forum.

 

[Iain]

Mods - move, lock, whichever, I could do without a flame war. I would point out the Art didn't seem to mind it's presence here, neither did Tamara.

 

[Duncan Idaho]

*snicker* "...and then we'd get locked up by Wildlife Management agents and have our jail cells picketed by PETA members while newscasters described us as barbarians on the Teevee."

Perhaps that is the case where you live Tamara. I work for the WA St. Dept. of Fish and Wildlife. By law, any citizen may lawfully kill a predator in the act of depridation. If a cougar was spotted stalking livestock, children, etc. it would be dead before it hit the ground.

Not everywhere in America is , but you do have a point that we have more than our share of places that are.

 

[kudu]

What Brits call pumas we call mountain lions or cougars. Just so there is no confusion between names of big cats.