English Big Cats
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Duncan Idaho
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Nowhere that I know of, but there are quite a number of names for them. In upstate New York they used to be called cat-a-mounts.
To make this post about hunting: bear/cougar (they are sold together) permits in Washington state cost $10.95 for residents. Second cougar tags cost $10.95. Bear/cougar tags cost $219.00 for non-residents.
We have more than enough of the varmints. Feel free to come and whack a couple of them.
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Beaker
Member
I don't doubt that there have been some escapes, and that some of them may have successfully returned to the wild for a time. I still doubt that they can set up a successful breeding population so relatively undetected. Here's why:
Even with a relatively uninhabited area, if all there is to eat is rabbits and there are no competing large predators, a cougar would move to where there was larger prey. (In the Americas, the only areas where cougars routinely survive on small prey like rabbits and armadillos are areas where the jaguar is the top predator and there's very little large prey to go around anyway.) While a cat that size can SURVIVE on bunnies, it WANTS deer and other large animals, because it's much better energy expended to energy gained bargain. In the absence of large populations of deer, it will target livestock. My area has a pretty damn low population density- there are more coyotes around than humans, and more mule deer than you can shake a rifle at- but we're still tripping over cougars every breeding season. Also, as big as that area looks, it's not big enough for more than a few cats. As soon as a few litters were born, the subadults would disperse... toward more populated areas. (Most cougars killed in cities like Boulders are subadult males looking for a territory. They're shy, but not wanting to be killed by mommy and daddy seems to override fear of humans.)
Even with a relatively uninhabited area, if all there is to eat is rabbits and there are no competing large predators, a cougar would move to where there was larger prey. (In the Americas, the only areas where cougars routinely survive on small prey like rabbits and armadillos are areas where the jaguar is the top predator and there's very little large prey to go around anyway.) While a cat that size can SURVIVE on bunnies, it WANTS deer and other large animals, because it's much better energy expended to energy gained bargain. In the absence of large populations of deer, it will target livestock. My area has a pretty damn low population density- there are more coyotes around than humans, and more mule deer than you can shake a rifle at- but we're still tripping over cougars every breeding season. Also, as big as that area looks, it's not big enough for more than a few cats. As soon as a few litters were born, the subadults would disperse... toward more populated areas. (Most cougars killed in cities like Boulders are subadult males looking for a territory. They're shy, but not wanting to be killed by mommy and daddy seems to override fear of humans.)
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
St Johns, "cougar" seems to be the more universal name. "Panther" is about the only name used in Florida, and is common in Georgia.
"Mountain lion" is the majority-use name in Texas, I know. (Or, just "lion".) "Puma" is more commonly used in the Rocky Mountain states, from reading of interactions there, although it may nowadays be more of an archaic term. "Painter" is an old time colloquialism common to the Appalachians. I've read the word "catamount" more in stories from the early colonial period.
Does that help?
Beaker, down in south Brewster County, we have more lions than deer, seems like. They like quail, javelina, and jackrabbits as well as deer. And goats. They have been know to come into yards for house cats and--in one instance--into a house for a dog.
They'll respond to a wounded-rabbit predator call, as some guys found out one night. The split-window was open in the back of their pickup truck's cab, and a great hairy paw came waving around inside. It was a redefinition of the phrase "exciting moment".
I imagine that those areas of the Isles where there are deer could support a breeding population. The climate is no harsher than lion-populated areas of the states.
Art
"Mountain lion" is the majority-use name in Texas, I know. (Or, just "lion".) "Puma" is more commonly used in the Rocky Mountain states, from reading of interactions there, although it may nowadays be more of an archaic term. "Painter" is an old time colloquialism common to the Appalachians. I've read the word "catamount" more in stories from the early colonial period.
Does that help?
Beaker, down in south Brewster County, we have more lions than deer, seems like. They like quail, javelina, and jackrabbits as well as deer. And goats. They have been know to come into yards for house cats and--in one instance--into a house for a dog.
They'll respond to a wounded-rabbit predator call, as some guys found out one night. The split-window was open in the back of their pickup truck's cab, and a great hairy paw came waving around inside. It was a redefinition of the phrase "exciting moment".
I imagine that those areas of the Isles where there are deer could support a breeding population. The climate is no harsher than lion-populated areas of the states.
Art
In the UK we use the term panther to apply to melanistic leopards (black panthers) See where the confusion arose?
Now Duncan, was that an invitation? That is one invitation I would love to accept, they ain't endangered so I will come ''whack a few''.
You think a cougar would be able to alter it's habits sufficiently to survive, I do. There are reports of horses being attacked (see previous page) foals being taken, some sheep attacks, nobody regulates the deer population to any great extent, I doubt three or four a week are going to missed. They also can decimate our other ''aliens'' (the rabbits) as much as they like.
Wallabies and wild boar have escaped and survived here. There is a definite niche for an over-predator in the British Isles. The largest we have is the black and white badger, our foxes never top 25lbs. We had bears, they were wiped out 700 years ago, wolves were wiped out 300 years ago. The last evidence for a larger cat in the British Isles suggests that they disappeared over 3,000 years ago. Wolves and bears may well have helped in this but man has eliminated them and may have created a niche for a cat population.
A lynx (note the absence of tail) they still exist in certain areas of Europe, why not Britain if ''accidentally'' re-introduced? There are viable and monitored experiments with release of wolves in Scotland, they can survive in smallish packs, so I guess a lone cougar or lynx could too.
There are no proven attacks on a human yet (some claims that really look like hoaxes for money) so I am quite happy to let them go. I think for the reasons Beaker described they will never become a large presence and/or a pest. Any brazen ones, and/or attacks on humans and I support their destruction 100%.
To bring it round to hunting again, what would you suggest rifle, bore and ammunition-wise to bring down a cougar?
Now Duncan, was that an invitation? That is one invitation I would love to accept, they ain't endangered so I will come ''whack a few''.
You think a cougar would be able to alter it's habits sufficiently to survive, I do. There are reports of horses being attacked (see previous page) foals being taken, some sheep attacks, nobody regulates the deer population to any great extent, I doubt three or four a week are going to missed. They also can decimate our other ''aliens'' (the rabbits) as much as they like.
Wallabies and wild boar have escaped and survived here. There is a definite niche for an over-predator in the British Isles. The largest we have is the black and white badger, our foxes never top 25lbs. We had bears, they were wiped out 700 years ago, wolves were wiped out 300 years ago. The last evidence for a larger cat in the British Isles suggests that they disappeared over 3,000 years ago. Wolves and bears may well have helped in this but man has eliminated them and may have created a niche for a cat population.
A lynx (note the absence of tail) they still exist in certain areas of Europe, why not Britain if ''accidentally'' re-introduced? There are viable and monitored experiments with release of wolves in Scotland, they can survive in smallish packs, so I guess a lone cougar or lynx could too.
There are no proven attacks on a human yet (some claims that really look like hoaxes for money) so I am quite happy to let them go. I think for the reasons Beaker described they will never become a large presence and/or a pest. Any brazen ones, and/or attacks on humans and I support their destruction 100%.
To bring it round to hunting again, what would you suggest rifle, bore and ammunition-wise to bring down a cougar?
Beaker
Member
I'm not arguing that a cougar couldn't survive in Britain- it could do so quite nicely- I'm arguing that a breeding population of them is unlikely. Cougars can have up to eight kits per litter, with the usual number being around three. In a species that is solitary, requires a large territory to be happy but is on a small island by cougar standards, and can survive on smaller game but prefers and pursues larger, a breeding population of ever-more-widely dispersing cougars couldn't last long as unconfirmed rumors, and these reports have been going around since the early seventies if not longer. If anything the cougar issue would become apparent very rapidly, because in the absence of competing predators there'd be a higher survival rate for kittens, and in the absence of having been hunted they'd be a lot bolder than is typical in America.
I'm not saying the island couldn't support a population, I'm saying it couldn't and have cougars remaining as simple rumor for decades.
I'm not saying the island couldn't support a population, I'm saying it couldn't and have cougars remaining as simple rumor for decades.
Duncan Idaho
member
That's right! I stand corrected. I forgot about the whole Florida panther thing.
Anytime from August 1st through March 15th.
The bunnyhuggers managed to outlaw hunting cougars with dogs, but they are fairly plentiful, so there is a reasonable chance of seeing one.
Pretty much anything from .243 on up. Cougars aren't that tough to kill. Hitting them is the tricky part. A sidearm (9mm or better) is also a good thing to carry, in the event that the cougar chooses CQB.
Would there be a higher survival rate for kits when they were competing with bro and sis for food and then a terrority? Didn't you say that males often get shot because they wander into towns to get away from mum and dad and the potential violence therein?
I agree, it is strange that there is no more solid documented evidence, but it is a bit more than a simple rumour. One guy was out shooting woodpigeon when he startled a very large cat. In hindsight he realised he had approached it down-wind and it looked shocked like it had jsut woken (there are reports of sizeable cats sunbathing in full view of people). He pulled up the gun but it was gun before he could shoot. He says he is glad that he didn't get a shot off because 12-bore game shot would probably have just pissed it off.
Remember that some people claim to have two minute long video evidence, but due to the poor quality of most home equipment and amateur camerwork it is very unclear. There is a still I found, will dig it up, quite weird to look at when you blow it up, the head looks all wrong for a domestic cat, as do the legs. Nobody has actually gone out seriously to document it, it is not worth the hassle as far as many are concerned.
A sighting every 28-35 days is not to be sniffed at. Up until ten years ago there was less than 10 minutes of footage of either the highland or the lowland gorilla (never remember which) in the whole world.
I agree, it is strange that there is no more solid documented evidence, but it is a bit more than a simple rumour. One guy was out shooting woodpigeon when he startled a very large cat. In hindsight he realised he had approached it down-wind and it looked shocked like it had jsut woken (there are reports of sizeable cats sunbathing in full view of people). He pulled up the gun but it was gun before he could shoot. He says he is glad that he didn't get a shot off because 12-bore game shot would probably have just pissed it off.
Remember that some people claim to have two minute long video evidence, but due to the poor quality of most home equipment and amateur camerwork it is very unclear. There is a still I found, will dig it up, quite weird to look at when you blow it up, the head looks all wrong for a domestic cat, as do the legs. Nobody has actually gone out seriously to document it, it is not worth the hassle as far as many are concerned.
A sighting every 28-35 days is not to be sniffed at. Up until ten years ago there was less than 10 minutes of footage of either the highland or the lowland gorilla (never remember which) in the whole world.
May I also submit this for your more trained eyes.
That was taken about 10 miles from where I presently live. Evidence points to that being a full-grown rabbit in its mouth (back legs fully developed or something) I'd add that the ears are very feline and the tail is quite thick and bushy. It is known locally as the ''Durham Puma''.
That was taken about 10 miles from where I presently live. Evidence points to that being a full-grown rabbit in its mouth (back legs fully developed or something) I'd add that the ears are very feline and the tail is quite thick and bushy. It is known locally as the ''Durham Puma''.
Duncan Idaho
member
That looks like a very large, and I mean LARGE, housecat to me. If not for the long tail, I would almost say that it looked like a lynx. The color is odd as well.
Cougars tend to look more lithe to my eyes, but maybe that is one that is very well fed.
Cougars tend to look more lithe to my eyes, but maybe that is one that is very well fed.
Beaker
Member
No, there shouldn't be any higher mortality for kits in that situation; they should feel the itch of wanderlust and disperse long before their parents' attitude turns from indifference to aggression. Cats rarely fight in the wild unless it can't be avoided or one of them was captive-raised and released- hence why a wild cougar with a reason to fear humans would wander into a suburb rather than stay in its original territory.
I don't doubt that there is something behind the sightings and killings, I just doubt that it's a breeding population of cougars gone native rather than a combination of escaped exotics, unusually large domestic/wild cats, and feral dogs. As for the mountain gorilla comparison, the "cloud forest" they inhabit was until recently no-man's-land to everyone except a small tribe of hunter/gatherers, with neither photographic equipment nor interest in chatting with the more technologically rich. Britain, on the other hand...
I agree with Duncan- the picture doesn't look like a cougar. A juvenile animal that would be that small in comparison to the rabbit would have entirely different proportions. I also agree that it looks like a lynx, except for the tail. Domestic cats can go up to 25-30 lbs for an unusually large male- and there are some breeds meant to get that big, such as the Maine Coon and Siberian Cat- especially with outcrosses to wild species in their background.
I don't doubt that there is something behind the sightings and killings, I just doubt that it's a breeding population of cougars gone native rather than a combination of escaped exotics, unusually large domestic/wild cats, and feral dogs. As for the mountain gorilla comparison, the "cloud forest" they inhabit was until recently no-man's-land to everyone except a small tribe of hunter/gatherers, with neither photographic equipment nor interest in chatting with the more technologically rich. Britain, on the other hand...
I agree with Duncan- the picture doesn't look like a cougar. A juvenile animal that would be that small in comparison to the rabbit would have entirely different proportions. I also agree that it looks like a lynx, except for the tail. Domestic cats can go up to 25-30 lbs for an unusually large male- and there are some breeds meant to get that big, such as the Maine Coon and Siberian Cat- especially with outcrosses to wild species in their background.
Bigjake
Member
this is NOT a brit bashing post
If you guys can hunt with bolt action, why hasn't anyone just gone out and shot the beast with a good solid bolt action rifle? around here (Ohio, USA) i don't have cougar, but a bolt action rifle would be 2nd only to a lever action in 45/70 (use enough gun! ) for my choice.
If you guys can hunt with bolt action, why hasn't anyone just gone out and shot the beast with a good solid bolt action rifle? around here (Ohio, USA) i don't have cougar, but a bolt action rifle would be 2nd only to a lever action in 45/70 (use enough gun!
) for my choice.Andrew Wyatt
Member
At least around here, the mountain lions don't have a reputation for being very hard to kill.
a shotgun with buckshot would probably work just fine.
a shotgun with buckshot would probably work just fine.
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Heck guys they don't have to be bad to shoot them. Here's Ashley with his cat from last winter. We did start this cat about 50 yards from a home in Terrero NM. If most people knew how many big cats live near them every day in the rockies I think they'd be surprised.
I appreciate what you guys are saying and that was my first response too. Some have been shot by farmers and landowners and that is fair enough, but many probably live in areas that don't belong to anyone or are certainly never used by people for anything other than the occasional hike.
England is certainly nowhere near as big as the US and our population density is much higher, but at a guess I would say that near 50% of the population live in the south, with a much higher concentration to the south east. However there is the Surrey Puma, and you don't get more south east/London area than Surrey.
Despite all this there has never been an attack on a human, horses yes, sheep, most certainly but not actually very many. If i had to make a guess as to how many there are in Britain as of now, based on the reading I have done I would suggest the total is less than ten. They can move over large areas, often sitings appear in fits and spurts in different villages and could be attributed to the movements of just one cat covering a large area.
My interest lies in how an alien species has managed to take a hold, especially such a large one. The largest native mammal surviving in this country is the badger, a puma is just a little larger.
Duncan - I agree with you largely, it does seem lynx-ish size but the tail says it is not a lynx. The colour and the fur density are wrong for a puma. However, a species of cat called the Jungle Cat has been found as roadkill in this country. When it was found some researchers took a good look at all the kittens born in the area in the months either side. One had very clear and very distinct Jungle Cat markings.
This is the Jungle Cat that was run over in Shropshire. Despite the name they prefer woodlands and do well in agricultural areas (Shropshire is very agricultural)
What you were saying about them being more lithe got me thinking. Have you ever seen Lake Placid? A croc living in a lake in the US being fed a cow once a week by an old woman. I think it is quite possible that the people who released them, or maybe just people they adopted, have been feeding them in some areas. No reason why they wouldn't take food from a garden belonging to a cottage in the country, am sure they would overcome their shyness for a chicken or something.
England is certainly nowhere near as big as the US and our population density is much higher, but at a guess I would say that near 50% of the population live in the south, with a much higher concentration to the south east. However there is the Surrey Puma, and you don't get more south east/London area than Surrey.
Despite all this there has never been an attack on a human, horses yes, sheep, most certainly but not actually very many. If i had to make a guess as to how many there are in Britain as of now, based on the reading I have done I would suggest the total is less than ten. They can move over large areas, often sitings appear in fits and spurts in different villages and could be attributed to the movements of just one cat covering a large area.
My interest lies in how an alien species has managed to take a hold, especially such a large one. The largest native mammal surviving in this country is the badger, a puma is just a little larger.
Duncan - I agree with you largely, it does seem lynx-ish size but the tail says it is not a lynx. The colour and the fur density are wrong for a puma. However, a species of cat called the Jungle Cat has been found as roadkill in this country. When it was found some researchers took a good look at all the kittens born in the area in the months either side. One had very clear and very distinct Jungle Cat markings.
What you were saying about them being more lithe got me thinking. Have you ever seen Lake Placid? A croc living in a lake in the US being fed a cow once a week by an old woman. I think it is quite possible that the people who released them, or maybe just people they adopted, have been feeding them in some areas. No reason why they wouldn't take food from a garden belonging to a cottage in the country, am sure they would overcome their shyness for a chicken or something.
3 posts in a row hmmm.
Anyway, thought I would relate a funny story about a sighting. It is common knowledge in this country that in certain places a lot of marijuana gets grown illegally. We have a large landowning charity in this country that takes over stately homes, castles etc when they are sold off. The stories are that the hippies would use areas tucked away in National Trust properties to grow their gear.
They were quite used to collecting at night and being very quiet so as not to attract attention to themselves. Perfect for seeing wildlife. Many claim, after the fact, to have seen cats. They did not report at the time as it would involve some awkward explanations.
One hippy who had been using his own produce reported seeing a giant rabbit one evening. It was investigated and the result did suggest it was a large cat not a giant rabbit.
Then again there are the stories of the Scottish rabbit cats. And they are weird stories that have led to some weird corpses.
'' In December of 1993 a big black cat was seen swimming after wildfowl near East Kilbride. This act alone was unusual but when the keeper sent his two dogs to scare the cat away from the birds, the cat came out of the water and took on both dogs with such ferocity, that the keeper was forced to shoot the cat to protect his dogs from the attack. The cat, a female, closely resembled the Dufftown beast and it appeared a second rabbit headed cat had been discovered. ''
A very strange head, long nose, the picture is not squashed, the upper jaw protrudes over the lower jaw. Some claim this is a primitive previously undiscovered species. I suggest it is the result of jungle cats and/or wildcats mating with domestic cats and the resultant cats being large due to the effects of melanism.
Anyway, thought I would relate a funny story about a sighting. It is common knowledge in this country that in certain places a lot of marijuana gets grown illegally. We have a large landowning charity in this country that takes over stately homes, castles etc when they are sold off. The stories are that the hippies would use areas tucked away in National Trust properties to grow their gear.
They were quite used to collecting at night and being very quiet so as not to attract attention to themselves. Perfect for seeing wildlife. Many claim, after the fact, to have seen cats. They did not report at the time as it would involve some awkward explanations.
One hippy who had been using his own produce reported seeing a giant rabbit one evening. It was investigated and the result did suggest it was a large cat not a giant rabbit.
Then again there are the stories of the Scottish rabbit cats. And they are weird stories that have led to some weird corpses.
'' In December of 1993 a big black cat was seen swimming after wildfowl near East Kilbride. This act alone was unusual but when the keeper sent his two dogs to scare the cat away from the birds, the cat came out of the water and took on both dogs with such ferocity, that the keeper was forced to shoot the cat to protect his dogs from the attack. The cat, a female, closely resembled the Dufftown beast and it appeared a second rabbit headed cat had been discovered. ''
A very strange head, long nose, the picture is not squashed, the upper jaw protrudes over the lower jaw. Some claim this is a primitive previously undiscovered species. I suggest it is the result of jungle cats and/or wildcats mating with domestic cats and the resultant cats being large due to the effects of melanism.
Duncan Idaho
member
I've seen both the actual lake in upstate New York, and (much to my chagrin) the really bad movie.
Oddly enough, the idea that some eccentric person(s) might be keeping these exotic cats and occasionally releasing them to hunt - in the same fashion as a falconer - had occured to me.
I should also have mentioned that the paw size is all wrong, and that the proportional distance between the ears of the cat in that picture makes that cat look like a domestic one to me. It's nothing that I can quantify scientifically, rather it is a gut-feeling on my part.
Now we are getting somewhere.
Take a look at the picture here: http://www.wildlifeeasyst.com/jungle_cat.htm That cat looks very strikingly like a domestic cat. I confess that I have never heard of them before. Not surprising I suppose, give that there are less than 70 of them in captivity.
The hippie angle is also interesting. Lots of drug-addled losers in this country keep exotic "pets". Sometimes they do this to intimidate their drug-addled loser rivals. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to find that some British drug fiends might try to scare other dope smoking idiots off of their favorite patch by crying havoc, and letting slip the cats of war. Wouldn't surprise me either, if the plan failed because the object of the cat's charge thought they where being attacked by a rabbit. What is deeply confusing, is why the hippies didn't unleash the stopping power of the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch.
Are they illegal to hunt with?
Duncan Idaho
member
http://www.chausie.net/cattery.html
A quick search of the 'net for "jungle cat" indicates to me that breeding hybrids of these cats is not uncommon.
A quick search of the 'net for "jungle cat" indicates to me that breeding hybrids of these cats is not uncommon.
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St Johns,
Thank you sir. I did not know that.
And just for the record I spend quite a bit of time in your country as my job brings me there. I enjoy the company of your countrymen and the I find the North of England to be quite scenic. I'd love to spend some time in Scottland. Stalking of course.
H&Hhunter
See, my country is ok
Duncan, there have been at least three confirmed roadkills of distinguishable jungle cats in the last 20 years.
The following is from a public debate held in Cornwall, the speaker is Ellis Daw, he runs the Dartmoor Wildlife Park at Sparkwell and has done for over 30 years. They have owned cougars (pumas) for two thirds of that time.
Duncan, there have been at least three confirmed roadkills of distinguishable jungle cats in the last 20 years.
The following is from a public debate held in Cornwall, the speaker is Ellis Daw, he runs the Dartmoor Wildlife Park at Sparkwell and has done for over 30 years. They have owned cougars (pumas) for two thirds of that time.
Keith
Member
Point 1: England is too densely populated to harbor large cats without them being sighted and identified on a daily basis. There is almost nowhere that is out of sight of a house or well traveled road. Those "natural" areas still left are literally crawling with hikers, anglers birders and bureaucrats.
Mountain lions have enormous paws designed to allow them to run on snow. Even a person totally unfamiliar with tracking would recognize such a track as something very odd indeed. And in the damp English climate even one lion would leave thousands of such tracks every day. Just about anyone would be able to identify which little patch of brush the animal was using to lie up every day from the number of tracks entering and exiting the area. After a winter snow, the tracks would stand out like a Hip Hop band at a KKK meeting!
Point 2: The "experts" identifying cat kills of domestic stock are full of it! Even in the Western US where people are quite familiar with such kills, you'll still see boneheads crawling out of the woodwork to identify a dead cow as the victim of alien "cattle mutilators". Lots of animals kill stock, but typically in settled areas it's your neighbors dog. And dogs have no instinctive kill method - the kills can resemble those of cats, bears wolves, whatever.
Point 3: Most of the photos have no scale to help separate small domestic cats from larger animals of the same configuration. Great Britain also has its own wild cat - isn't it the Scottish Wildcat? Somewhat larger than a domestic cat, but smaller than a lynx.
The photo of the cat with the rabbit is probably one of these wildcats. No doubt many of the sightings are of the same animal.
Point 4. Hoaxes. Some people just get a kick out of creating a sensation. Whether it's Loch Ness monster pictures, crop circles, or sightings of enormous felines, somebody will come along and report it or fake a picture for a laugh.
Keith
Mountain lions have enormous paws designed to allow them to run on snow. Even a person totally unfamiliar with tracking would recognize such a track as something very odd indeed. And in the damp English climate even one lion would leave thousands of such tracks every day. Just about anyone would be able to identify which little patch of brush the animal was using to lie up every day from the number of tracks entering and exiting the area. After a winter snow, the tracks would stand out like a Hip Hop band at a KKK meeting!
Point 2: The "experts" identifying cat kills of domestic stock are full of it! Even in the Western US where people are quite familiar with such kills, you'll still see boneheads crawling out of the woodwork to identify a dead cow as the victim of alien "cattle mutilators". Lots of animals kill stock, but typically in settled areas it's your neighbors dog. And dogs have no instinctive kill method - the kills can resemble those of cats, bears wolves, whatever.
Point 3: Most of the photos have no scale to help separate small domestic cats from larger animals of the same configuration. Great Britain also has its own wild cat - isn't it the Scottish Wildcat? Somewhat larger than a domestic cat, but smaller than a lynx.
The photo of the cat with the rabbit is probably one of these wildcats. No doubt many of the sightings are of the same animal.
Point 4. Hoaxes. Some people just get a kick out of creating a sensation. Whether it's Loch Ness monster pictures, crop circles, or sightings of enormous felines, somebody will come along and report it or fake a picture for a laugh.
Keith
Point 1 - England is not that densely populated at all. There are areas of Wales and Scotland where nobody really goes all that much. See the map on the previous page. Britain's population is actually rather concentrated in certain areas, admittedly it is nowhere near as spread out as the US, but you can go missing in Northern England and Scotland if you want to. In Wales they do regular fly-overs of areas to see if people are building residences without permits, the areas are too vast and out of the way to cover otherwise.
The Lake District
Scotland
Most people would dismiss a paw print as that of a large dog, and we do have dogs as big as cougars. There are some questions I can't answer (two days research is not a lot).
Point 2 - to a certain extent I agree. However, dogs kill as worriers rather than outright killers like cats. A pack of dogs will tear at an animal to bring it down and even start to eat it whilst it is still alive. Dog's that kill sheep over here, and there are many, tend to make a real mess of the sheep, tear it's face off, scatter bits around.
That is not a messy kill, in fact some claim it is absolutely characteristic of a cat kill.
Point 3 - I'd agree with the lack of scale issue. However some of the photo's just don't look like domestic cats.
Put that into a photo editor and enlarge it. The head and the neck look very wrong for a domestic cat. I'd also suggest that it is very long in a way that leopards are.
Some sightings will be domestic cats, wildcats and dogs. However a puma has been captured from Derbyshire, a leopard cat been shot on the Isle of Wight, three Jungle Cats run over at various points and many animals that went missing from collections that shut down over the last 30 years.
Point 4 - without question there have been hoaxes.
ScotlandMost people would dismiss a paw print as that of a large dog, and we do have dogs as big as cougars. There are some questions I can't answer (two days research is not a lot).
Point 2 - to a certain extent I agree. However, dogs kill as worriers rather than outright killers like cats. A pack of dogs will tear at an animal to bring it down and even start to eat it whilst it is still alive. Dog's that kill sheep over here, and there are many, tend to make a real mess of the sheep, tear it's face off, scatter bits around.
That is not a messy kill, in fact some claim it is absolutely characteristic of a cat kill.
Point 3 - I'd agree with the lack of scale issue. However some of the photo's just don't look like domestic cats.
Put that into a photo editor and enlarge it. The head and the neck look very wrong for a domestic cat. I'd also suggest that it is very long in a way that leopards are.
Some sightings will be domestic cats, wildcats and dogs. However a puma has been captured from Derbyshire, a leopard cat been shot on the Isle of Wight, three Jungle Cats run over at various points and many animals that went missing from collections that shut down over the last 30 years.
Point 4 - without question there have been hoaxes.
The puma/catamount/mountian lion/panther are all the same animal in the US and that's why it has the Latin name Felis Concolor (cat of many colors). It's true coloration runs from grey to dusky red to tan (rather like a deer's hide) with a white underbelly. The kittens are spotted like other large cats and grow out of their spots as they age. however, spotted with the sun BEHIND them, any animal can appear "black".
Unlike a "black panther" which is a subspecies of South American jaguar (3rd largest cat in the world--Panthera Onca) the american puma is rarely "black". Up close a black jaguar still has rosettes, pumas don't.
What I'm seeing in that first still you posted of the cat carrying a rabbit is doubtless a hybrid cat. A lynx or jungle cat inbred with a domestic cat of some sort. Or maybe a jungle cat with thicker fur?
This debate about 'wild cats' in England has been going on for years. Its true that many owners simply let them go rather than "register"or destroy their animals. (You have to recall that even as late as 1900 it was considered fashionable in some circles to keep Cheetahs as pets, and train them as hunting 'dogs'.
I've seen the TV interview with a man who raises Pumas legally in England saying his females have been courted by a wild Tom on numerous occasions, but that he has not gotten a photo of the elusive animal. (Would you carry a camera 24-7 on your "ranch"?)
Now, I hunt in lion country here in Colorado. I've walked in panther tracks as big as my palm. I've seen tons of cat droppings, a few kill sites and even found hair once. I've NEVER seen a panther outside a zoo. In twenty years of quietly stalking through the woods, seeing every form of game in this state I've never seen one yet I KNOW they are here.
The puma is a reclusive critter and they tend to shy away from people. The puma stalks its prey from behind, mounting its back and crushing the vertebrae and windpipe with its teeth. Thats EXACTLY what that horse looks to have had happen to it.
National Geographic has on record an 80 pound 'runt' female puma killing a full grown moose. Even the researcher assigned to the radio collared feline was surprised. They are tough predators, equipped to kill animals much biggervthan themselves. They are also solitary.
However, its seems most FERAL cat's don't eat such big meals but survive by eating grasshoppers and other large insects, voles and field mice.
England is full of those.
England also has sparsely populated tracts of land between its remaining forests, enough to walk for several days without seeing another person.
Lynx, puma and bobcats can all share the same habitat in America, and the same is even more true in a diverse ecosystem like south eastern africa where a variety of cats coexist.
So to summarize:
You have a known history of people keeping exotic cats as pets.
You know some people let them go.
You have an ample food supply for a variety of predators.
You have a staged food supply for a variety of predators, from large to small.
You have large stretches of remote areas connecting wooded areas esp. in the North and West of England.
You have a LOT of sightings of puma sized animals, more so than can be accounted by the original animals being 'let loose"
You have a variety of dead exotics showing up on highways.
You have some wierd speciation of cats happening. (the rabbit cat, the cat in the pic with the rabbit)
Conclusions:
You have pumas in England, albiet a small breeding population. There were enough of them around to breed a second and third generation, based on the sightings. If this is not the case, your captive breeders are likely the culprits of most sightings. Are there enough individuals to maitain a breeding population? That remains to be seen.
You likely have smaller exotic cats breeding with feral housecats.
Now all you have to do is prove it.
DNA testing on the roadkill carcasses and other scientific study would take this out of the realm of myth and monsters and into wildlife biology.
If I were coming to England I'd do my hunting with a camera.
By the way, an excellent "hunting" topic.
Unlike a "black panther" which is a subspecies of South American jaguar (3rd largest cat in the world--Panthera Onca) the american puma is rarely "black". Up close a black jaguar still has rosettes, pumas don't.
What I'm seeing in that first still you posted of the cat carrying a rabbit is doubtless a hybrid cat. A lynx or jungle cat inbred with a domestic cat of some sort. Or maybe a jungle cat with thicker fur?
This debate about 'wild cats' in England has been going on for years. Its true that many owners simply let them go rather than "register"or destroy their animals. (You have to recall that even as late as 1900 it was considered fashionable in some circles to keep Cheetahs as pets, and train them as hunting 'dogs'.
I've seen the TV interview with a man who raises Pumas legally in England saying his females have been courted by a wild Tom on numerous occasions, but that he has not gotten a photo of the elusive animal. (Would you carry a camera 24-7 on your "ranch"?)
Now, I hunt in lion country here in Colorado. I've walked in panther tracks as big as my palm. I've seen tons of cat droppings, a few kill sites and even found hair once. I've NEVER seen a panther outside a zoo. In twenty years of quietly stalking through the woods, seeing every form of game in this state I've never seen one yet I KNOW they are here.
The puma is a reclusive critter and they tend to shy away from people. The puma stalks its prey from behind, mounting its back and crushing the vertebrae and windpipe with its teeth. Thats EXACTLY what that horse looks to have had happen to it.
National Geographic has on record an 80 pound 'runt' female puma killing a full grown moose. Even the researcher assigned to the radio collared feline was surprised. They are tough predators, equipped to kill animals much biggervthan themselves. They are also solitary.
However, its seems most FERAL cat's don't eat such big meals but survive by eating grasshoppers and other large insects, voles and field mice.
England is full of those.
England also has sparsely populated tracts of land between its remaining forests, enough to walk for several days without seeing another person.
Lynx, puma and bobcats can all share the same habitat in America, and the same is even more true in a diverse ecosystem like south eastern africa where a variety of cats coexist.
So to summarize:
You have a known history of people keeping exotic cats as pets.
You know some people let them go.
You have an ample food supply for a variety of predators.
You have a staged food supply for a variety of predators, from large to small.
You have large stretches of remote areas connecting wooded areas esp. in the North and West of England.
You have a LOT of sightings of puma sized animals, more so than can be accounted by the original animals being 'let loose"
You have a variety of dead exotics showing up on highways.
You have some wierd speciation of cats happening. (the rabbit cat, the cat in the pic with the rabbit)
Conclusions:
You have pumas in England, albiet a small breeding population. There were enough of them around to breed a second and third generation, based on the sightings. If this is not the case, your captive breeders are likely the culprits of most sightings. Are there enough individuals to maitain a breeding population? That remains to be seen.
You likely have smaller exotic cats breeding with feral housecats.
Now all you have to do is prove it.
DNA testing on the roadkill carcasses and other scientific study would take this out of the realm of myth and monsters and into wildlife biology.
If I were coming to England I'd do my hunting with a camera.
By the way, an excellent "hunting" topic.
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