Enough gun, definition.....

[Robert]

I am a huge fan of my 375H&H. Once we got the bugs ironed out it is a 375 laser all the way out to 300y, which is the longest I've used it for accuracy. I have hit targets at longer distances but that was a rock... It may not shoot flat as a super mag but I have found the 270g bullet works great in my rifle and scope set up.

And I am not saying that I would ever take a marginal shot but the 375H&H makes less than absolute perfect shots doable. Now if I can just get an elk to stand still in one spot for just a few seconds...

 

[H&Hhunter]

Now if I can just get an elk to stand still in one spot for just a few seconds...

I'm thinking that scent control might be your issue. lay off the MRE's dude!!

 

[buck460XVR]

A wounded lion in the thick stuff is one of the most terrifying and dangerous situations that can be imagined. I like some extra horse power when it comes to killing machine like male African lions.

Brought this to mind.......

 

[BigBore44]

So the '06 is acceptable, adequate, "enough gun" for the small tundra grizzlies (rarest and smallest species), and many costal brownies have been killed and guides and outfitters prefer their clients have .270-.30-06.

So a 600-1000+lb, thick skinned, heavy boned, with a thick layer of fat, grizzly vs. a 400-600 medium skinned, lean, lion. An '06, .270, 7x57 is enough for the bigger, but not the smaller due to likelyhood of penetration to the CNS..... I'm really curious about that.

Buck460,
I've watched and showed that video a hundred times. Never gets old.
Here's another one:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vNYwusa8xUY
Talk about a brush with death.

 

[saturno_v]

Do you really think there is no difference between the stopping power of a body shot from a 30-06 and a 375 H&H ?

In a charge situation?? Not so much...a 30-06 with heavy for caliber bullets has tremendous straight line penetration.....the 375 H&H by the way is not a big bore african cannon....it is definitely quite more powerful than a 30-06 but it is not like comparing a 243 to a 30-06.....

The 375 H&H was designed as an all around world cartridge capable of taking down heavy thick skinned animals up to elephants as well. It was not intended as a grizzly or lion round.

It is interesting how nowadays the -06 is considered by some almost a pop gun....I saw the devastation that a 200 gr. Nosler pill out of a 30-06 did to a very large elk (pass through)

I bet that if costs come down significantly and if technology will reduce the weight of the rifle the 50 BMG will be considered bare minimum for a bear...

 

[saturno_v]

Brought this to mind.......

.....yes and in that particular situation a 30-06 or a 460 Weatherby would not have made the slightest difference.....lucky brain shot (looks to me)....

 

[saturno_v]

H&H talking about chasing a wounded lion in the bush...what is your take on a 12 gauge shotgun with a 3" Brenneke Black magic??

I don't know if you are familiar with it, it is a non expanding .73 cal extremely hard slug with sharp edges....penetration is truly impressive (at short distances)

It is sold as a dangerous game defensive slug.

 

[gamestalker]

I wouldn't feel comfortable with a 30-06 in grizz country. IMO, a .338 WM would put me at more ease, or course with the right projectile.

I've seen black bears take a clean lung shot from an 06 that lived to see another season. All bears are tough animals and can heal under some amazing conditions.

GS

 

[ZeroJunk]

Yep. I was on a mineral lick between Biggs Flats and Dryden Creek in the Bob Marshall Wilderness. I was bow hunting elk which is more a morning deal during the rut, but I liked to spend the afternoon on that lick to see what showed up. One evening late I heard something coming in so I eased through the small spruce down to the edge of the lick and a grizzly came out the other side about 30 yards away. He looked about the size of Mack Truck. Nothing about that animal said 30-06 to me.

 

[Bobson]

Nevermind.

 

[saturno_v]

I've seen black bears take a clean lung shot from an 06 that lived to see another season. All bears are tough animals and can heal under some amazing conditions.

There have been deer surviving (meaning lost) to a supposedly clean lung shot out of a 300 WM....if it was a "clear lung shot" that bear would not have survived.


People drop big black bears with a 30-30 like a sack of potatoes all the time

 

[H&Hhunter]

So the '06 is acceptable, adequate, "enough gun" for the small tundra grizzlies (rarest and smallest species),

The 06 is adequate for inland grizzly but is not my first choice. I still like the .375H&H very much. As far as rarest I wouldn't exactly call the inland grizzly rare, I can take you to places in the interior of Alaska that is crawling with them. Grizzly's are more wide spread than brown bears by a long shot simply due to the fact that brown bear is a coastal bear and grizzly is an inland bear and there's a lot more inland than there is coast line.

and many costal brownies have been killed and guides and outfitters prefer their clients have .270-.30-06.

I've never heard one recommend the .270 however. Most that I know "recommend" the .338 WM as a sensible minimum though they won't turn down a client who wants to use his 06. I don't know of too many brown bear guides however that use a .30-06 or a .270 as a back up gun and they are the ones that have to go dig a bear out of the brush if things go wrong. Phil Shoemaker being an exception I've seen where he has used his .30-06 as a back up gun but he also uses a .458 wm, 505 Gibbs, and a .375 Ruger to name a few.

Here is a quote from the Alaska Dept of wildlife and the states recommendation on Brown bear rifles.

What is the best rifle to use for brown bear hunting?

Most experienced hunters consider a .30-06 rifle with a 180 grain soft-nosed bullet to be the smallest effective caliber for Kodiak brown bears. The .300 mag, .338 mag., and .375 mag. are popular and well-suited calibers. A waterproof rifle stock is also beneficial during a Kodiak hunt.

Kind of sounds familiar doesn't it?

So a 600-1000+lb, thick skinned, heavy boned, with a thick layer of fat, grizzly vs. a 400-600 medium skinned, lean, lion. An '06, .270, 7x57 is enough for the bigger, but not the smaller due to likelyhood of penetration to the CNS....

Those are some seriously HUGE inland grizzly bear weights and are more inline with a coastal brown bear. 600 lbs is an extremely large inland grizzly though they do get that big, the average male is more in the 400 lb range which is a very big animal capable of killing a human with very little effort make no mistake about it.

As far as your CNS comment if I said that it was a mistake. My point being that if you DON'T hit the CNS you want something with a bigger thump.

So my comment on lion vs inland grizzly doesn't have anything to with which animal is harder to kill. Rather if a follow up is required it's my thought that a lion is more dangerous and more likely to give a determined charge than is a grizzly. And in either case a .30-06 isn't my first choice. Did I mention that I really like the .375H&H?

 

[H&Hhunter]

H&H talking about chasing a wounded lion in the bush...what is your take on a 12 gauge shotgun with a 3" Brenneke Black magic??

I don't know if you are familiar with it, it is a non expanding .73 cal extremely hard slug with sharp edges....penetration is truly impressive (at short distances)

Probably would be a very effective choice.

 

[Robert]

Can we please not turn this into yet another bear thread that has to be locked? What is it about bear threads that cause otherwise sane people to lose their friggin minds?

As H&H pointed out in the op,

I am simply proclaiming what my definition of "enough" gun is.

It is his definition. It is what works best for him and his style of hunting. Let's not get bent out of shape over what works best for one person or another.

 

[saturno_v]

My definition of enough gun is a cartridge chambering capable to get to the "goodies" (vitals/CNS) even from odd angles at the intended distances

H&H I hope the admin dos not lock the thread because of my reply to your points.


Actually I heard from quite a few people that lived in Alaska or are still in Alaska that an -06 with the right bullet is plenty medicine, tundra or coastal.

There is a joke that says that the caliber required to kill a big grizzly it gets bigger as you getting closer to Anchorage

Some of these people have seen big brownie more than some guides.

Some actually prefer for defence an easy handling and loading rifle (a lever 45-70, a pump 12 gauge with slugs or a pump action Remington in 30-06)

Caribou has taken a quite remarkable big one (inland or coastal it was big regardless) when he posted his pictures and he did with a bullet weight that many would not consider ideal... FMJ 147 gr. light weight, non expanding.


A 1951 Kodiak Bear hunt record....1400 pound...rifle a Winchester boltie in 30-06

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0diBlYy1H0

A 9' 6" grizzly taken a 80 yeards (pass through) with a 30-06 by a 17 years old

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4HfhF4Rv5Q


Outdoor Life article "30-06: The Ultimate Grizzly Cartridge"

"“Anyone who says the .30-06 is not effective on brown bears or grizzlies either has never used one or is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.”
—An Alaskan Bear Guide"

http://www.outdoorlife.com/node/1001308838

That said, obviouly if you lke your 375 and you can fire it as easily there is no reason for you to use an -06

 

[MCMXI]

4. In the Lower 48 for elk it simply depends on your style of hunting. Adequate depends on your style of hunting. Enough gun however, to meet my definition should be able to get the job done under any circumstances including longish range say out to 300 yards but more importantly it should be able to get the job done comfortably in the thick stuff at close range too where a snap shot is a real possibility. And if you are hunting in those conditions where a snap shot is a possibility you need a round that is going to reliably penetrate to the vitals from less than perfect shot angles.In those conditions a .338, .35 Whelen, 9.3, or a .375 become a very useful tool and have enough penetration and momentum to reliably get the job done.

This is good information. I've been thinking about which rifle I'll use this year for elk and was leaning towards the Talkeetna in .375 H&H. The other decent option is a Montana in .300 WSM but I think I'll stick with the .375 H&H and a 270gr Barnes bullet. One of my coworkers was out hunting with his brother last year and the brother made multiple shots "in the boiler maker" on a big bull elk at 300 yards using a .300 Win Mag. The elk didn't want to go down and was dangerously close to heading off/down a ravine or similar which would have made recovery very difficult. My coworker is now rethinking the .308 Win that he's been using for the past few years. I have no idea if a 270gr .375 caliber bullet would have made a difference in that situation.

 

[ZeroJunk]

unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship

Or wittingly commenting on average marksmanship rather than that of the truly talented or the delusional.

 

[saturno_v]

Or wittingly commenting on average marksmanship rather than that of the truly talented or the delusional.

You keep mixing up accuracy and cartridge capability...a bad shot with a 375 is as ineffective as a 30-06 bad shot on an animal where both cartridges can reach full penetration to the vitals even from odd angles

To make an example, on a nice whitetail if you miss the vitals with a 375 the extra power of the cartridge is not going to help you extra power is not and it has never been a substitute for accuracy. that line of thinking is what get peopel killed in thorny situations....

I would be scared to death (and even more) and I do not intend to track a wounded lion or bear but if I find myself in that situation a 375 over a proper full penetrating 30-06 loading would not make me less scared (assuming I could shot both equally well) because all I need is a CNS connecting shot....

An experienced guide said that when you hear often stories of a dangerous animals "soaking bullet like candies" and not going down often is their clients shooting the big boomers all over the place....one in the air, another on a tree another on the guts...


And no, before you say it I would not hunt a grizzly with a 30-30 or a 243...it is done and it has been done but these cartridges could have marginal penetration in some situations....you still have a threeshold where you do not want to go below in every class of game.

 

[ZeroJunk]

a bad shot with a 375 is as ineffective as a 30-06

I just don't believe that.

 

[BigBore44]

So what DO you believe ZeroJunk?

 

[ZeroJunk]

So what DO you believe ZeroJunk?

I believe in laws of physics. And, if you have to go through paragraphs of contortions to try and explain your way around them you are likely FOS.

 

[saturno_v]

believe in laws of physics. And, if you have to go through paragraphs of contortions to try and explain your way around them you are likely FOS.

...so what are the law of physics that justify your thinking??

 

[ZeroJunk]

Linear momentum. Transfer of that energy over a larger area.

There is simply more power in faster fatter bullets to the point you can't stand to shoot them.

Whether one can shoot straight or not is a concern for there well being if they are being attacked by anything.

But, to the extent they can shoot their chances of survival will be better with the larger fire power.

Regardless of how many elephants somebody killed with a BB gun.

 

[saturno_v]

Linear momentum is hogwash if you do not take in consideration energy (which is a factor of velocity and bullet weight) and equally important sectional density....and we are not taking in consideration bullet construction and shape which is another variable and further complicate things.

The 375 H&H is obviosuly more powerful and it penetrates further compared to a 30-06 (actually not that much more when you take bullet of 200 gr. and up in 30 cal) because of its higher energy and similar SD in many bullet weight.

However the 375 H&H was designed to take down heavy boned thick skinned game up and including elephants. Bruins and big cats are not even near the upper limit of the 375 H&H capability.

In sum it up, the extra power of the 375 H&H compared to a 30-06 is of no consequence against, for example, on an elk at 100 yards....both cartridges are fully capable of bone smashing full penetration on that class of game...a pass through is a pass through....the 375 will just generate a slightly larger wound channel (depending on type of bullet used)

Now if we are talking about rhino or elephant, the 375 H&H expra oomph is fully warranted...

 

[H&Hhunter]

Saturno,

I am not in conflict with your statements. The 06 with the right bullets is a fully capable bear round though it should be considered a minimum. BTW that was Phil Shoemaker who made the comment about the .30/06 and accuracy.

For every big bear killed with a .30/06 post I'm sure we can find one of a big bear killed with a .375 or .338 or 8mm Rem Mag or whatever. It comes down to personal preference and my preference has been developed from having been in the Jesse bush with agitated and aggressive elephants and having spent my fair share of time cruising the alders in big bear country.

The .30/06 is a great round I carry one often. The last elk I killed with a . 30/06 took a 180 gr TSX through the shoulders with a clean exit and it fell over dead in about 3 seconds it was at 233 yards. It wouldn't have died any quicker if it had been shot with a .600NE. My op explains my thoughts on the subject pretty well I thought. If you want to hunt big and nasty stuff with a .30/06 get after it. Have fun take lots of pictures post them here and write a good story.