Estate # 4 buck OR NOT!!

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bk42261

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Went shooting with my sons today Brought the Mossberg 500 and
some Estate #4 buck.
I shot a couple mags full, all good Ran great, no issues at all.
Loaded the tube full and handed it to my eldest son.He ran the gun dry,
turned around and said "Whydid you load 3 rounds of slugs you *****
I told him all #4s from same box then looked at the target.
3 out of 5 were definitely slugs.
Checked the hulls. All marked as #4 buck.
Out of the rest of that 25 round box we ended up with 9 that were loaded
with slugs, yet all marked as and appearing to be #4 buck.

I don't understand how this could happen.
Any thoughts or insight?
All functioned just fine, but that slug when you're expecting buck will get
your attention!!
 
Very, very odd. I've shot a decent amount of their ammo and never had any issues with it.

I personally don't have much use for #4 buck (when dog driving for deer down here you have to use buckshot and #4 performs very poorly on deer compared to 00 - I'd wager its about the same for defensive use), but Estate has always been fine for me.
 
Standard foster type lead slugs are designed to be shot through any choke, except perhaps the newer turkey chokes with the super tight constriction, and in most cases work better with some constriction.
 
Someone mixed up them at the factory when they were stamping them and then put them in the correct boxes according to how they were marked?
 
I agree with wolf. In my youth I had heard both theorys so naturally I tested it. Some guns will shoot slugs out of a modified choke fairly well, almost none out of a full choke. Permanently damaged the chokes on a couple shotguns. The old timers called it dumping the choke. All shot fired a foot or more low after the slugs. Expensive lesson for a kid. Cut the barrels and they were only slug guns after that. Never fired one through a choked barrel on a gun I valued after that. Seen another guy actually bend the barrel on an old Win. semi auto.
 
Bought at L.L.Bean up here in Freeport,ME.
After the first occurrence, we checked the rest of the box, and all of the
rest were marked as buckshot, and had what appeared to be a normal crimp.
 
I hope he wasn't running a choke on that barrel, or it's definitely ruined and the barrel may be damaged as well.
Click to expand...
I have run slugs through lots of different fixed choke barrels, with chokes ranging from modified to full. Recoil goes up as the choke constriction goes up, but in no case did the barrel ever get damaged. If a thin wall fixed choke barrel does not suffer damage, I seriously doubt that a Mossberg 500 barrel would be damaged.
 
That'll learn ya to check each and every round in every box regardless of caliber. Estate is OK and usually performs well but their quality control is sometimes lacking. Had a few shells with bulged hulls or chewed up brass from them. I now check every round regardless of manufacturer.
 
Shooting at paper target at relatively short distance with a shotgun it isn't unusual to see large hole made by a shotgun wad. I would guess this is what you are seeing and not a hole from a slug.

The picture below shows what I mean on a target I'd shot at 10 yds. just to see what the patern looked like. The single big hole in the center of the left side target shot with #4 buck is from the wading.

2Mossberg10ydpatternweb.jpg
 
bk42261 said:
Bought at L.L.Bean up here in Freeport,ME.
After the first occurrence, we checked the rest of the box, and all of the
rest were marked as buckshot, and had what appeared to be a normal crimp.
Click to expand...
How were you able to differentiate the nine slugs?
 
Something doesn't add up here. Slugs would have been loaded on a completely different production line in the factory than buckshot, and would have been roll crimped. I don't see how it would be possible to wind up with slugs marked as buck mixed in with a box of #4 buck. The only possibility I see would be somebody doing a mix and match after the ammo left the factory, maybe a couple boxes broke open at the store, or an unsupervised kid was playing in the ammo department.
As far as a foster slug doing any damage to a gun- absolute myth. I would bet that the vast majority of deer taken with slugs in the last 100 years were shot with Foster slugs through a full choke. With today's litigious society if it were an issue there would be so many warnings on the slug box you would probably need to sign a waiver to buy them.
 
bk42261 said:
Checked the hulls. All marked as #4 buck.
Out of the rest of that 25 round box we ended up with 9 that were loaded
with slugs, yet all marked as and appearing to be #4 buck.
Click to expand...

I'm only familiar with the Estate 12ga 00 buck that I have.

Mine have clear plastic on top and with the roll crimp, you could easily see if it was a slug or shot.

When you checked the rest of the box and found more...
Is that how you verified that they were slugs inside the hulls but the hulls were marked #4 buck?
 
The slugs were definitely slugs, as they put a nice clean hole through 1/4"
plywood. I'm pretty sure wads don't have that much energy at 35 feet.

If you've ever shot buckshot and slugs from the same Mossberg 500 you
WILL know the difference.
As far as "plastic covers" over the shot, I don't know, maybe on lighter hunting or target loads? These were all what I consider "standard" shells,
with the hull itself crimped over the load.
As said before, after my son turned to me and said "What did you do, you
@#$%^&*(( load this up with slugs?" all remaining rounds were physically
checked, and all were marked as buckshot and had a "normal" crimp.

As said, the holes were NOT from wads as they were round holes completely
through 1/4" plywood. We DID find some wads on the ground from some of
the ammo.
 
bk42261 said:
The slugs were definitely slugs, as they put a nice clean hole through 1/4"
plywood. I'm pretty sure wads don't have that much energy at 35 feet.

If you've ever shot buckshot and slugs from the same Mossberg 500 you
WILL know the difference.
As far as "plastic covers" over the shot, I don't know, maybe on lighter hunting or target loads? These were all what I consider "standard" shells,
with the hull itself crimped over the load.
As said before, after my son turned to me and said "What did you do, you
@#$%^&*(( load this up with slugs?" all remaining rounds were physically
checked, and all were marked as buckshot and had a "normal" crimp.

As said, the holes were NOT from wads as they were round holes completely
through 1/4" plywood. We DID find some wads on the ground from some of
the ammo.
Click to expand...

No. 00Buck as I mentioned.

These are the only Estate I'm familiar with and was wondering if you were able to see the shot or slug from the top like you can with these.

.https://www.midwayusa.com/product/953219988/estate-ammunition-12-gauge-2-3-4-00-buckshot-9-pellets



Jim Watson said:
If the shells were off an open shelf as at Gander here, somebody might have swapped loads around, carelessly or maliciously.
Click to expand...

If I'm reading it right, he's saying that the hulls are marked #4buck but inside 9 of those #4buck marked hulls were actually slugs.
That's not someone swapping things around at the store.


Frostbite said:
How were you able to differentiate the nine slugs?
Click to expand...

Darn good question.

It seems just by the hole in the plywood.
 
How about a picture.

Show us one of the remaining B-S marked/slug loaded rounds.

This is a very curious issue to be coming from Federal.

The slugs are exposed, no?



Todd.
 
No, Todd,as I said,all rounds appeared to be buckshot and had the plastic
case "crimped over" solidly like a "normal" shell- no exposed lead like I'm
used to seeing with slug rounds.


The recoil was markedly stouter and, as I've said, there was a perfectly round hole through the 1/4" plywood.
We shot the entire box of 25 and that was all of it I had .


However, I also had gotten a box of "low brass" 7 1/2 shot so my wife could shoot the gun without getting beaten up, and those all had the same crimp as the buckshot loads.


As far as 00 compared to#4 buck, these are for HD in my "mobile home"
in a trailer park, and my longest possible shot would be 35'. I'm pretty
confident that the 4s will be adequate for my purposes without excessive worries about overpenetration.


By the way, thanks for all the responses thus far.
 
bk42261,

I'm not shotgun savvy.

Please don't take me bring up 00buck as questioning your choice. In fact, in your situation, I think #4 buck is more appropriate than 00buck.

Its just the only Estate stuff I'm familiar with and was wondering if the stuff you had has the neat little window in the top ;)
 
I would think it more likely that the shot didn't seperate for some reason if you are only judging by the hole in the target. I would be digging in my backstop to locate a slug just to convince myself. I've Seen birdshot stick together and have heard that buffered buck can do it especially if it gets wet or is handled poorly.
 
Cypress said:
I would think it more likely that the shot didn't seperate for some reason if you are only judging by the hole in the target. I would be digging in my backstop to locate a slug just to convince myself. I've Seen birdshot stick together and have heard that buffered buck can do it especially if it gets wet or is handled poorly.
Click to expand...



This. Without actually having a slug to verify your claim it's only speculation.
 
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