Even more confused

[tws3b2]

New to reloading. Getting ready to load some 38spl, 158gr lswc using w231 powder. I was looking for a mild load. Speer list min. 3.8 - 4.3 max using w231. Looked over to Hodgdon to compare. They list min. 3.1 - 3.7 max. ?? Then I saw Hodgdon data was using a 7.7" barrel. ??
First. Who in the heck uses a 38spl with a 7.7" barrel?? Didn’t know they even made such a bugger.
Second, Does barrel length make that much difference? I haven't seen where any others mention barrel length in my books.
Or did this newbie miss something along the way?

 

[ballman6711]

Barrel length doesn't matter except for velocity. Once the bullet starts moving chamber pressure will start to decrease.

Can't answer your first question, although I have seen 8" barrel revolvers, and even longer.

I load 38spcl with 3.9gr of W231 under a 158gr jsp,, BUT that is a jacketed bullet, not a lead bullet. I would suggest making five or ten at the start load, then do the same at 0.1 or 0.2 gr more, and so on up to max. Shoot them and see what you like, how the accuracy is, and what the recoil is like.

Question to you, is the Speer data using a lead bullet or a jacketed bullet, because it does make a difference. If they are using a jacketed bullet, then go with the Hodgdon data.

chris

 

[rsrocket1]

The Hodgdon data may have been very old test data and that was the barrel used. You are very safe at 3.5g W231. Out of a 4" Ruger, I get 700fps which is super mild. 4.3g will be at the top of 38 Special for small frame revolvers, +P and 357 Magnum revolvers will still be well below max pressures. I would start with some 3.5g loads and see how they feel.

 

[mdi]

More likely than not, a 7.7" barrel is on a universal reviver test rig, not an actual gun. I believe the Hodgdon data is for the Hornady swaged bullet and the Speer data is for a cast bullet. Difference? Yep. Major No-No? Nope. Soft lead swaged bullets normally require lower loading due to soft lead leading the barrels with normal to upper 38 Special velocities. Barrel length does make a difference and data from longer barrel testing will be higher velocity, All loads shot from my 2" 38 Specials will be slower than manual data from 7.7" barrel. How much slower depends on the gun, the powder, the bullets, etc. I don't have any info on hand but this may give you an idea http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/38special.html

Not to worry. Just K.I.S.S and when in doubt, go with the lowest listed charges...
Go slow. Double check everything. Most important, have fun.

 

[tws3b2]

Barrel length doesn't matter except for velocity. Once the bullet starts moving chamber pressure will start to decrease.

Can't answer your first question, although I have seen 8" barrel revolvers, and even longer.

I load 38spcl with 3.9gr of W231 under a 158gr jsp,, BUT that is a jacketed bullet, not a lead bullet. I would suggest making five or ten at the start load, then do the same at 0.1 or 0.2 gr more, and so on up to max. Shoot them and see what you like, how the accuracy is, and what the recoil is like.

Question to you, is the Speer data using a lead bullet or a jacketed bullet, because it does make a difference. If they are using a jacketed bullet, then go with the Hodgdon data.

chris

Both Speer and Hodgdon data were for Lswc. No jacket.

 

[tws3b2]

The Hodgdon data may have been very old test data and that was the barrel used. You are very safe at 3.5g W231. Out of a 4" Ruger, I get 700fps which is super mild. 4.3g will be at the top of 38 Special for small frame revolvers, +P and 357 Magnum revolvers will still be well below max pressures. I would start with some 3.5g loads and see how they feel.

3.5 is where I was planning to start. When I saw Hodgdon data it kind of through me for a loop. I like mild.

 

[fxvr5]

Speer's data is for their swaged lead bullets.

Hodgdon's data is for a cast lead bullet.

 

[Otto]

This data is from a Winchester load pamphlet circa 1997. It’s provided for historical purposes only but it’s what I’ve always used. Why? Because I still have 231 made during that period.

 

[Larry in wyoming]

Different lots of powder and different conditions at time of testing and different bullets will all yield different data for the load books. That's all just normal reloading stuff. You'll get used to it.

 

[EricBu]

New to reloading. Getting ready to load some 38spl, 158gr lswc using w231 powder. I was looking for a mild load. Speer list min. 3.8 - 4.3 max using w231. Looked over to Hodgdon to compare. They list min. 3.1 - 3.7 max. ?? Then I saw Hodgdon data was using a 7.7" barrel. ??
First. Who in the heck uses a 38spl with a 7.7" barrel?? Didn’t know they even made such a bugger.
Second, Does barrel length make that much difference? I haven't seen where any others mention barrel length in my books.
Or did this newbie miss something along the way?

The barrel length isn't relevant to the min-max charges listed. Different reference may often have different start/max listings for a given powder because of different components used, especially bullets. Note other information in the two different sources, like OAL, bullet brand/type etc. Seating depth and the type/style of the LSWC will change the start/max charges for example. It will be especially different between something like a JHP and a LSWC. The barrel length is only a reference point for a given velocity.

 

[eddiememphis]

Last week I used 4.0gr of W231 pushing Missouri Bullet Company 158gr SWC coated bullets.

Averaged 800 fps out of a 4" Colt Trooper. I am at 5400' elevation for whatever that's worth.

Lyman's 50th claims 15,900 psi with that load.

Light recoil. Accuracy was good but I think it could be better.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

More likely than not, a 7.7" barrel is on a universal reviver test rig, not an actual gun. I believe the Hodgdon data is for the Hornady swaged bullet and the Speer data is for a cast bullet. Difference? Yep. Major No-No? Nope. Soft lead swaged bullets normally require lower loading due to soft lead leading the barrels with normal to upper 38 Special velocities. Barrel length does make a difference and data from longer barrel testing will be higher velocity, All loads shot from my 2" 38 Specials will be slower than manual data from 7.7" barrel. How much slower depends on the gun, the powder, the bullets, etc. I don't have any info on hand but this may give you an idea http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/38special.html

Not to worry. Just K.I.S.S and when in doubt, go with the lowest listed charges...
Go slow. Double check everything. Most important, have fun.

The Speer is also swaged.

Speer’s swaged bullets are 30:1 IIRC while Hornady’s are antimonial lead. 30:1 contains tin and lead but no antimony. Antimonial lead contains antimony, lead and less than 1% tin. They both are extruded into wire, cut into pellets then fed into swaging machines and cold pressed before being finish lubed. It’s a pretty cool process.
Antimonial lead is a little more malleable than 30:1 but the same hardness. Different compositions.

In my experience antimonial lead shoots about the same as lead tin alloys. The loading data is based on what the lab observed using a specific sample.

Now what I want to know is why I never get the same gas mileage as the EPA. What are they doing? Driving downhill with a tailwind?

 

[tws3b2]

Well, Loaded up 5 test rounds using 3.5gr w231. I'll have to wait til the range opens back up Jan. 1. Closed from Nov. 1 til Jan. 1 for deer season. Yep, they close 2 months per year to go deer hunting.
When finished loading I went back to weigh each round. Just to make sure no rounds were 3.5gr over or under. To my surprise two rounds were 10gr under the other 3.
First thought, What??? I knew the bullets were 159 gr +- and I know I didn't put 10 extra gr of powder in the 3 rounds. So I start weighing casings. I had picked up some casings at the range and put them in the bag with my Blazer casings. Some are Federial and Star. The Star and Federal weigh 10 grs less than Blazer. I wasn't expecting that much difference. Kind of blew my mind there for a minute. But I guess that's not hard to do.

 

[mdi]

FWIW; when doing a load work up I normally weigh every charge, use same primers and brass headstamps. Once I arrive at "The Load" I relax my parameters, usually to mixed range brass and weigh every 3rd or 4th charge...

 

[N555]

That's why I sort by head stamp.

 

[DMW1116]

What are you planning to shoot these out of? For pistols I generally shoot minimum charges and go up. The charge range is small and I’m paranoid. I also tend to see more accurate loads with minimum charges when using W231, but that might just be my Blackhawk and 357 Mag minimum loads. It generally doesn’t like 38 Special as much in terms of accuracy. I’m hoping to find a good one.

 

[Jim Watson]

Who in the heck uses a 38spl with a 7.7" barrel?

That is approximately the total working length of a revolver 6" barrel plus 1.7" cylinder. Of course there is no cylinder gap, so velocity will be higher than in a real gun.
Some testing is done in a simulated revolver with a gap in the test barrel. Specifications on the SAAMI site.

 

[tws3b2]

What are you planning to shoot these out of? For pistols I generally shoot minimum charges and go up. The charge range is small and I’m paranoid. I also tend to see more accurate loads with minimum charges when using W231, but that might just be my Blackhawk and 357 Mag minimum loads. It generally doesn’t like 38 Special as much in terms of accuracy. I’m hoping to find a good one.

I'm shooting 38spl S&W 642, 1.8 barrel.
I too am paranoid. I was looking for a low - midrange mild load using w231. But, Seems the more I look the more confused I get. So, Keeping a long story short I decided to jump in somewhere between yaa and naa and see what happens. Not Knocking anyone, place or thing. I've decided that too much information is deadlier than less. BUT, do appreciate all help and advice.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

I'm shooting 38spl S&W 642, 1.8 barrel.
I too am paranoid. I was looking for a low - midrange mild load using w231. But, Seems the more I look the more confused I get. So, Keeping a long story short I decided to jump in somewhere between yaa and naa and see what happens. Not Knocking anyone, place or thing. I've decided that too much information is deadlier than less. BUT, do appreciate all help and advice.

It takes some time, experience, and reflective thought for all the information to congeal into understanding, and even then there are things you will continue to learn for a long time. Anyway, 38 special is probably one of the best learning tools there is for reloading. There’s tons of data, lots of bullet types, and the large case and relatively low pressure is as safe a learning environment as you’re likely to find. Your 642 is +p rated, so you should be good pressure-wise with most any standard 38 special load, but exercise due caution while hand loading.

Just pick a manual and choose a middle-of-the-road load to test in your gun. Just don’t start with loads that list pressures close to the maximum your gun is rated for (20,000 CUP/PSI). As you gain experience you can branch out to other loads.

 

[film495]

too much info is a problem. trying to interpret and make sense out of it all can cause people to miss the most important info.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I'm shooting 38spl S&W 642, 1.8 barrel.
I too am paranoid. I was looking for a low - midrange mild load using w231. But, Seems the more I look the more confused I get. So, Keeping a long story short I decided to jump in somewhere between yaa and naa and see what happens. Not Knocking anyone, place or thing. I've decided that too much information is deadlier than less. BUT, do appreciate all help and advice.

This actually gets asked a lot - at least once a month in some form since I started lurking here about ten years ago - and the explanation is almost always at least as confusing as the original question.

I did warn you.

 

[DMW1116]

I hope this works out for you. Those little revolvers can be hard to shoot well and require a lot of practice and rounds down range. Reloading is the only way I've been able to practice as much as I have. That and wearing out an aluminum snap cap by dry firing. My Blackhawk weighs nearly 3 pounds. It takes a full 357 Magnum load before I consider it anything but mild shooting. Just holding it up by one hand is more tiring than the actual shots.

 

[AJC1]

Data can be all over the map. I chart as many sources as possible. And load the overlapping data. The most critical part is shooting the same material. Jacketed or cast or swaged or monolithic. I separate swaged and cast as they are that different

 

[tws3b2]

I hope this works out for you. Those little revolvers can be hard to shoot well and require a lot of practice and rounds down range. Reloading is the only way I've been able to practice as much as I have. That and wearing out an aluminum snap cap by dry firing. My Blackhawk weighs nearly 3 pounds. It takes a full 357 Magnum load before I consider it anything but mild shooting. Just holding it up by one hand is more tiring than the actual shots.

You not kidding when you say they can be hard to shoot. Takes practice and ammo. But it fits me.

 

[DMW1116]

I checked the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual for 158 grain loads of 38 with W231. They list a 155, 158, and 160 grain bullet. Data is all over for charge, from 3.5 to 4.9 grains. Granted I did not look up COAL to see how deep the bullets were seated. 3.5 should be good. This makes me want to shoot my Moms Colt 38 with its 2” barrel. It took a couple cylinders but I started to see improvement.