usmarine0352_2005
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Even with Ill. Supreme Court ruling carrying a weapon is still not a reality
- Thread starter usmarine0352_2005
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I would NOT go by what the prosecutors say. if they can BS you into not exercising your right, despite the reality, they will.
I called a the NYC rifle permit office once asking about whether a plain wood stocked Mini-14 would be legal to own in NYC. A SPECIFIC model of the Mini-14 with the folding stock is listed on NYC AWB list. But the officer on the phone said "No, Mini-14s are all illegal, can't register one here".
I wonder then how is it the gun shop near my house in Brooklyn has three of the wood stocked Minis sitting on their rack if they're so illegal.
Just because they don't liek you carrying a gun, doesn't mean they have any authority to stop you. I'd speak to a lawyer versed in IL gun law to clarify the issue.
I called a the NYC rifle permit office once asking about whether a plain wood stocked Mini-14 would be legal to own in NYC. A SPECIFIC model of the Mini-14 with the folding stock is listed on NYC AWB list. But the officer on the phone said "No, Mini-14s are all illegal, can't register one here".
I wonder then how is it the gun shop near my house in Brooklyn has three of the wood stocked Minis sitting on their rack if they're so illegal.
Just because they don't liek you carrying a gun, doesn't mean they have any authority to stop you. I'd speak to a lawyer versed in IL gun law to clarify the issue.
Well right now, the reality is, there are a limited amount of instructors, and the curriculum has yet to be approved, which amounts to a de-facto ban on carry. Oh, and then the wonder people will go through, when they realize they'll need a FOID, to get their CCW permit here, yup, 2014 is going to be an interesting year.
Yup, we effectively still have 'rights denied' until "sometime in 2014".. Early January is the earliest one can apply. With the time allowances the ISP has, extensions available to the Governor appointed review board, and so on, it could be April before even the early applicants get their permits.
The fingerprint system is horrible for a lot of folks who are rural. As an instructor, I have to drive an hour and a half to get my prints - just to get my TCN number. That has to be done before I can do the online instructor application! How convenient.
Fingerprint places are scalping too. When my sister got digital prints for a job (she works in government buildings), it cost her $25 to do the electronic prints for the background check. An instructor I know just paid $75 each for a group of 4 instructors ($300 total), for the instructor prints. And that was a "discounted" rate. (Most of them had to drive over an hour to get them, too).
The two pages of approved fingerprint companies; some have "mobile" printing services where they'll come on-site and print a whole class. They're charging between $50 and $150 for this service. (That'll be on top of the instruction training fees for the class itself.)
From various potential instructors I've talked to, and what they're planning on charging for the 2 day class, it's going to cost most folks somewhere in the neighborhood of $600 for all the training, prints, application fees, etc. (start to finish) to get a CCW permit next year.
And once they go through all that training and cost.. there's really not many places they'll be able to carry legally.
The CCW act in Illinois sucks. There's no other way to describe it.
Going to take arrests, charges, and appeals to trickle up to the supreme court to get some of these provisions changed, since the legislature isn't likely to do so on their own.
The fingerprint system is horrible for a lot of folks who are rural. As an instructor, I have to drive an hour and a half to get my prints - just to get my TCN number. That has to be done before I can do the online instructor application! How convenient.
Fingerprint places are scalping too. When my sister got digital prints for a job (she works in government buildings), it cost her $25 to do the electronic prints for the background check. An instructor I know just paid $75 each for a group of 4 instructors ($300 total), for the instructor prints. And that was a "discounted" rate. (Most of them had to drive over an hour to get them, too).
The two pages of approved fingerprint companies; some have "mobile" printing services where they'll come on-site and print a whole class. They're charging between $50 and $150 for this service. (That'll be on top of the instruction training fees for the class itself.)
From various potential instructors I've talked to, and what they're planning on charging for the 2 day class, it's going to cost most folks somewhere in the neighborhood of $600 for all the training, prints, application fees, etc. (start to finish) to get a CCW permit next year.
And once they go through all that training and cost.. there's really not many places they'll be able to carry legally.
The CCW act in Illinois sucks. There's no other way to describe it.
Going to take arrests, charges, and appeals to trickle up to the supreme court to get some of these provisions changed, since the legislature isn't likely to do so on their own.
Dean Weingarten
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Sounds like a possible opportunity for a good test case
A test case at this time might be fruitful. It would take someone with guts and courage. Best to set it up with a freindly peace officer and DA.
A test case at this time might be fruitful. It would take someone with guts and courage. Best to set it up with a freindly peace officer and DA.
gbran
Member
Even with the Heller ruling, it is still difficult (almost impossible) to obtain a handgun in DC.
JFtheGR8
Member
I'm taking a free hunter education class this weekend with my 17 y.o. daughter that I believe will count for 8 hours toward the ccw permit. I'm hoping for one day classes since not everyone will need 16 hours. I could be wrong but that's my understanding of the new law.
I also am in the process of becoming a substitute bus driver for the school district. Electronic fingerprinting for free and I'll get paid to drive to and watch my daughter's sports events.
There's ways to lesson the cost but you've gotta get creative.
Not getting fingerprinted only adds 30 days to the application process so that's not unbearable. Is the fingerprinting mandatory for instructors? If so I'm sure they'll make their money back in a pretty short amount of time.
Posted from Thehighroad.org App for Android
I also am in the process of becoming a substitute bus driver for the school district. Electronic fingerprinting for free and I'll get paid to drive to and watch my daughter's sports events.
There's ways to lesson the cost but you've gotta get creative.
Not getting fingerprinted only adds 30 days to the application process so that's not unbearable. Is the fingerprinting mandatory for instructors? If so I'm sure they'll make their money back in a pretty short amount of time.
Posted from Thehighroad.org App for Android
JTHunter
Member
In reviewing the ISP website earlier today, the nearest fingerprint location (at this time) is in the Granite City municipal building. That is about 25 miles NW of here. The nearest instructor is in Nashville, IL, about 40 mi. ESE of here. 
From Cairo at the southern tip of the state, it is about 100 miles to Nashville and about 140 to Granite City!!
Several words come to mind - swindle - boondoggle - stalling - corrupt - and many others unprintable!
:banghead:
From Cairo at the southern tip of the state, it is about 100 miles to Nashville and about 140 to Granite City!!
Several words come to mind - swindle - boondoggle - stalling - corrupt - and many others unprintable!
:banghead:Prince Yamato
Member
In 2013, you have no legal right to carry. In 2014, you will. Count your blessings. The court case could have gone the other way. Baby steps.
As a practical matter, Mike Madigan made it as hard as possible for anyone to get a permit. This is not some bureaucratic mess. It is entirely deliberate and was from day one.
I predict the sum total of the expense and the inconvenience will result in a very low number of permits being issued under the current law.
for those that would use the "difficulties" as excuse to not get a CCW in IL...
people regularly camp out FOR DAYS for the latest technobobble from the likes of Apple and others. you can't deal with some inconvenience to exercise a Constitutional right? While saying "you're part of the problem" might be taking it too far, it certainly speaks to your desire to actually want to CCW. You at least now have a process to obtain one and a fixed(*) point in time when it will happen. I see no future here in NJ for me ever getting a carry permit of any kind. You of IL at least will be able to, and soon. If by some miracle I could obtain the same here I would be camping out in front of whatever offices were required to obtain such tomorrow.
* yes I know, subject to various factions actually doing what they're supposed to do when they're supposed to. But you have legal recourse if they don't.
** note: I am not saying it isn't an inconvenience, or that it isn't a travesty or a trampling of our basic natural rights. Nor am I implying that persons on this board are of the whine-and-complain variety (for the most part. ) But you have an opportunity to not only obtain that which you have fought for (CCW) but to also make a statement by literally FLOODING the system with applications. Show the legislators, and the whole coutry, that THIS is what you want... your right to keep and BEAR arms. The more you use it, the more that obtain it, the more "proof" that carriers aren't going to go all Wild West on everyone, the easier it will be to roll back restrictions and limitations. Your pebble has started to roll down the mountain. May it gain speed and mass and become unstoppable.
people regularly camp out FOR DAYS for the latest technobobble from the likes of Apple and others. you can't deal with some inconvenience to exercise a Constitutional right? While saying "you're part of the problem" might be taking it too far, it certainly speaks to your desire to actually want to CCW. You at least now have a process to obtain one and a fixed(*) point in time when it will happen. I see no future here in NJ for me ever getting a carry permit of any kind. You of IL at least will be able to, and soon. If by some miracle I could obtain the same here I would be camping out in front of whatever offices were required to obtain such tomorrow.
* yes I know, subject to various factions actually doing what they're supposed to do when they're supposed to. But you have legal recourse if they don't.
** note: I am not saying it isn't an inconvenience, or that it isn't a travesty or a trampling of our basic natural rights. Nor am I implying that persons on this board are of the whine-and-complain variety (for the most part.
) But you have an opportunity to not only obtain that which you have fought for (CCW) but to also make a statement by literally FLOODING the system with applications. Show the legislators, and the whole coutry, that THIS is what you want... your right to keep and BEAR arms. The more you use it, the more that obtain it, the more "proof" that carriers aren't going to go all Wild West on everyone, the easier it will be to roll back restrictions and limitations. Your pebble has started to roll down the mountain. May it gain speed and mass and become unstoppable.Sota;
I understand what you're saying, but as a certified firearms instructor (who actually stands to gain something from all this), I still don't agree with you. Nor do I think that I am "whining about something I should be happy over." Nor do I think I am upset without damn good reason.
The cost and time is going to be prohibitive for MANY people.
Median household income in my town is $39,060 per year. Lets break things down for a single mother of two who wants to carry a firearm in self defense because her ex is getting out of prison in 6 months.
Cost for FOID card: $10 (Plus a 4 month wait, on average, right now)
Then, about 4 months later, you can go buy a gun.
Cost for a reasonably reliable concealed carry gun: ~$300
Cost for a box of ammo: ~$20
Cost for a cheap holster: ~$30
After waiting another 72 hours (to run another extensive background check on you, because the first wasn't good enough), you can pick up your handgun.
Then you flip open Google, and find a certified firearms instructor teaching a class. There's only 23 listed right now (more will come), the closest one right now is over 3 hours away. Let's assume that someone in my town finds one (small farm town), one town over (county seat). That's 25 miles away.
25 mpg car, 100 miles (2 days of training, 4 trips). $16.
But wait.. this poor low income sap works weekends and that's the only time the classes are taught. So now we've got two days off work. 39060/52/40=18.77 * 16= $300.32 in lost wages.
So now we know the person can make it to the class (after 4 months and 3 days of waiting). Class backlog is 2 months (shortage of instructors).
In the meantime the person gets the fingerprints knocked out. Closest fingerprint outfit is in Springfield or Peoria, both 45 miles. Only offer fingerprints in the morning on working days. Local PD won't do them, nor will county.
So now another day off work ($150), plus $75 for fingerprints, and 90 miles round trip ($15 gas), for a total of $240.
Class comes around, our low income student brings in their TCN number from the electronic fingerprint scan to class. Pays the instructor $250 for the two day course over the weekend. (No discounts due to demand.. average NRA basic pistol class in this area is $125, so I'm multiplying by two here).
Class goes great, person learns a lot about where they can't carry (everywhere). But.. what's this? The live fire segment is in Peoria IL, at a commercial range, later that evening on the second day. That's another 90 miles. (This happened during MY basic pistol class - thought live fire was on sight, found out after I showed up it's another place entirely, with a 3 hour dead spot between the class and the live fire. Another $15 in gas.
Person gets to the range, gun and ammo.. except the range only allows their ammo to be used. (Nice racket, it happens). So another $40 out of pocket on ammo.
Finally done!
Now.. just write that big fat $150 check to the State Police.
Wait 3 months.
And now, 273 days later... (9 months and 3 days = 4 months on FOID + 3 days waiting for handgun waiting period + 2 months waiting for class to open + 3 months waiting for ISP to process CCW app), and after spending $1011.32 the person can legally carry the pistol they paid $300 for.
But wait! This low income single working mother who just got a concealed carry permit, can't carry when she;
* drives her older kids to school, or picks them up after school (no guns on the parking lot or property)
* drops or picks up her younger kids from the day care
* takes her kids to the park (prohibited, except on bike paths. Because the dirt on the sides of the bike path is too dangerous to carry guns on.)
* takes her kids to their favorite - wait - ANY restaurant in town because there's only three of them. One is a restaurant and winery, > 50% alcohol sales. Two others are bar & grills, > 50% alcohol sales.
* takes her kids to the neighboring city's zoo (prohibited).
* takes her kids to the town library (prohibited)
* takes her kids to visit their grandmother who lives in Section 8 housing in another town, because that property is municipal owned, and therefore, prohibited (buildings / grounds under the control of municipal government). Likewise, her mother can't own firearms, period, on the property.
* takes her kids to visit their great-grand mother in a nursing home, because those are prohibited zones too.
* takes her kids on the bus down to New Salem - public transportation is prohibited.
* takes her kids to the local festival (park property), to the memorial day parade, or to the monthly car show downtown, because those events require a permit, and permit-issued events are prohibited to concealed carry. Likewise the annual 4th of July gathering is off limits.
* the playground up the block (all playgrounds are prohibited)
* to visit her sister at university (universities are prohibited, as are all grounds)
* to her workplace (posted, prohibited)
Which leaves the single mother who spent her entire savings account to get the right to carry a concealed firearm able to carry... well... nowhere.
It gets better though! I ran the numbers for median HOUSEHOLD income, above. Female median income (individual) is only $21,435. If we adjust the numbers above for time off, she's spent a full month of her take home pay getting a concealed carry permit.
But all of this is irrelevant, because 6 months in to the 9 months 3 days the poor woman had to wait to get her right to carry, the ex got out of prison, killed her, abducted the children, and buried her remains in a farm field outside of town.
The numbers here, they just don't work, man.
I understand what you're saying, but as a certified firearms instructor (who actually stands to gain something from all this), I still don't agree with you. Nor do I think that I am "whining about something I should be happy over." Nor do I think I am upset without damn good reason.
The cost and time is going to be prohibitive for MANY people.
Median household income in my town is $39,060 per year. Lets break things down for a single mother of two who wants to carry a firearm in self defense because her ex is getting out of prison in 6 months.
Cost for FOID card: $10 (Plus a 4 month wait, on average, right now)
Then, about 4 months later, you can go buy a gun.
Cost for a reasonably reliable concealed carry gun: ~$300
Cost for a box of ammo: ~$20
Cost for a cheap holster: ~$30
After waiting another 72 hours (to run another extensive background check on you, because the first wasn't good enough), you can pick up your handgun.
Then you flip open Google, and find a certified firearms instructor teaching a class. There's only 23 listed right now (more will come), the closest one right now is over 3 hours away. Let's assume that someone in my town finds one (small farm town), one town over (county seat). That's 25 miles away.
25 mpg car, 100 miles (2 days of training, 4 trips). $16.
But wait.. this poor low income sap works weekends and that's the only time the classes are taught. So now we've got two days off work. 39060/52/40=18.77 * 16= $300.32 in lost wages.
So now we know the person can make it to the class (after 4 months and 3 days of waiting). Class backlog is 2 months (shortage of instructors).
In the meantime the person gets the fingerprints knocked out. Closest fingerprint outfit is in Springfield or Peoria, both 45 miles. Only offer fingerprints in the morning on working days. Local PD won't do them, nor will county.
So now another day off work ($150), plus $75 for fingerprints, and 90 miles round trip ($15 gas), for a total of $240.
Class comes around, our low income student brings in their TCN number from the electronic fingerprint scan to class. Pays the instructor $250 for the two day course over the weekend. (No discounts due to demand.. average NRA basic pistol class in this area is $125, so I'm multiplying by two here).
Class goes great, person learns a lot about where they can't carry (everywhere). But.. what's this? The live fire segment is in Peoria IL, at a commercial range, later that evening on the second day. That's another 90 miles. (This happened during MY basic pistol class - thought live fire was on sight, found out after I showed up it's another place entirely, with a 3 hour dead spot between the class and the live fire. Another $15 in gas.
Person gets to the range, gun and ammo.. except the range only allows their ammo to be used. (Nice racket, it happens). So another $40 out of pocket on ammo.
Finally done!
Now.. just write that big fat $150 check to the State Police.
Wait 3 months.
And now, 273 days later... (9 months and 3 days = 4 months on FOID + 3 days waiting for handgun waiting period + 2 months waiting for class to open + 3 months waiting for ISP to process CCW app), and after spending $1011.32 the person can legally carry the pistol they paid $300 for.
But wait! This low income single working mother who just got a concealed carry permit, can't carry when she;
* drives her older kids to school, or picks them up after school (no guns on the parking lot or property)
* drops or picks up her younger kids from the day care
* takes her kids to the park (prohibited, except on bike paths. Because the dirt on the sides of the bike path is too dangerous to carry guns on.)
* takes her kids to their favorite - wait - ANY restaurant in town because there's only three of them. One is a restaurant and winery, > 50% alcohol sales. Two others are bar & grills, > 50% alcohol sales.
* takes her kids to the neighboring city's zoo (prohibited).
* takes her kids to the town library (prohibited)
* takes her kids to visit their grandmother who lives in Section 8 housing in another town, because that property is municipal owned, and therefore, prohibited (buildings / grounds under the control of municipal government). Likewise, her mother can't own firearms, period, on the property.
* takes her kids to visit their great-grand mother in a nursing home, because those are prohibited zones too.
* takes her kids on the bus down to New Salem - public transportation is prohibited.
* takes her kids to the local festival (park property), to the memorial day parade, or to the monthly car show downtown, because those events require a permit, and permit-issued events are prohibited to concealed carry. Likewise the annual 4th of July gathering is off limits.
* the playground up the block (all playgrounds are prohibited)
* to visit her sister at university (universities are prohibited, as are all grounds)
* to her workplace (posted, prohibited)
Which leaves the single mother who spent her entire savings account to get the right to carry a concealed firearm able to carry... well... nowhere.
It gets better though! I ran the numbers for median HOUSEHOLD income, above. Female median income (individual) is only $21,435. If we adjust the numbers above for time off, she's spent a full month of her take home pay getting a concealed carry permit.
But all of this is irrelevant, because 6 months in to the 9 months 3 days the poor woman had to wait to get her right to carry, the ex got out of prison, killed her, abducted the children, and buried her remains in a farm field outside of town.
The numbers here, they just don't work, man.
JTHunter
Member
Trent - nice "rant"!
sota - let me add one thing - irrespective of the ridiculous costs and hurdles - we should not have to "pay" for a "right". Otherwise, it isn't a "right", it's a "privilege" the state can deny on a legislative (or dictatorial) "whim".
Don't you agree?
sota - let me add one thing - irrespective of the ridiculous costs and hurdles - we should not have to "pay" for a "right". Otherwise, it isn't a "right", it's a "privilege" the state can deny on a legislative (or dictatorial) "whim".
Don't you agree?
rodinal220
Member
CHICAGO (FOX 32 News) -
Prosecutors say they've dismissed all charges against at least 103 defendants arrested for illegal gun possession in Chicago.
The State Supreme Court recently ruled that part of local gun laws to be unconstitutional. Still, a spokeswoman for State's Attorney Anita Alvarez said that anyone found carrying a firearm could still be charged with a crime.
Since FOX 32 News first reported last Thursday on the Illinois Supreme Court ruling, we've been pressing Alvarez and Chicago Police to explain their policy. On Wednesday night, a spokesperson said, "It would not be prudent for citizens to carry loaded firearms in public, whether they possess a valid Firearm Owners ID card or not. As for whether these cases would result in criminal charges...I would only say that we would evaluate any individual incident on a case-by-case basis."
One of those watching closely is Edward Hambrick.
"Just being in my own bed, in my own family home, the house I grew up in, it feels great!" Hambrick said after being freed from Cook County Jail.
Edward Hambrick also enjoyed choosing his own clothing Wednesday, something he could not do in 14 months at the Cook County Jail. He was locked up longer than some convicted of violent crimes, though authorities said the 40-year-old computer programmer's record is completely clean. He was among four defendants freed from the jail overnight.
Read more: http://www.myfoxchicago.com/story/2...-gun-law-ruled-unconstitutional#ixzz2fJj841Vx
Prosecutors say they've dismissed all charges against at least 103 defendants arrested for illegal gun possession in Chicago.
The State Supreme Court recently ruled that part of local gun laws to be unconstitutional. Still, a spokeswoman for State's Attorney Anita Alvarez said that anyone found carrying a firearm could still be charged with a crime.
Since FOX 32 News first reported last Thursday on the Illinois Supreme Court ruling, we've been pressing Alvarez and Chicago Police to explain their policy. On Wednesday night, a spokesperson said, "It would not be prudent for citizens to carry loaded firearms in public, whether they possess a valid Firearm Owners ID card or not. As for whether these cases would result in criminal charges...I would only say that we would evaluate any individual incident on a case-by-case basis."
One of those watching closely is Edward Hambrick.
"Just being in my own bed, in my own family home, the house I grew up in, it feels great!" Hambrick said after being freed from Cook County Jail.
Edward Hambrick also enjoyed choosing his own clothing Wednesday, something he could not do in 14 months at the Cook County Jail. He was locked up longer than some convicted of violent crimes, though authorities said the 40-year-old computer programmer's record is completely clean. He was among four defendants freed from the jail overnight.
Read more: http://www.myfoxchicago.com/story/2...-gun-law-ruled-unconstitutional#ixzz2fJj841Vx
usmarine0352_2005
member
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This poor guy spent 14 months in jail?
Could he sue and win?
.
Blackbeard
Member
What ever happened to the right to a speedy trial?
JFtheGR8
Member
usmarine0352_2005 said:
I would think he'd have a very good case since he was denied his civil liberties. Eric Holder needs to have his office investigate this immediately! We should demand it. Yeah right. This story doesn't fit into the liberal left's narrative.
Posted from Thehighroad.org App for Android
TyGuy
Member
Yup, it sucks living here.
Its a right that the defendant has to invoke. In IL it is taken seriously. Most defense attorneys seem to feel it is better to string things out as long as possible, so do not invoke the right.
BigLar
Member
Trent, that was awesome and spot on.
ILBob, I'm totally agree. At this point, it seems like at the very least, keeping it in the car (unloaded) is legal everywhere. And living in Chicago, that makes me much more comfortable on my daily commute.
ILBob, I'm totally agree. At this point, it seems like at the very least, keeping it in the car (unloaded) is legal everywhere. And living in Chicago, that makes me much more comfortable on my daily commute.
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