External extractors on 1911s
- Thread starter Shake
- Start date
- Status
Zak Smith
Member
Dan Wesson's Patriot series has them.
SIG's new "Granite" series 1911 has them.
Wilson has some pistols with them, I think.
Caspian will make you a slide with a cutout for it.
I have about 10,000 rounds through my DW Patriot with the external extractor. It has been very reliable for me, you just have to remember to remove it and clean its "channel" once every 2000-3000 rounds if you're using a dirty powder.
-z
SIG's new "Granite" series 1911 has them.
Wilson has some pistols with them, I think.
Caspian will make you a slide with a cutout for it.
I have about 10,000 rounds through my DW Patriot with the external extractor. It has been very reliable for me, you just have to remember to remove it and clean its "channel" once every 2000-3000 rounds if you're using a dirty powder.
-z
10-Ring
Member
I noticed SIG has it on their 1911.
James Bondrock
Member
I think Smith & Wesson uses an external on their SW1911. As originally designed, the 1911's extractor is a weak point. It is, in itself, a spring, and if the tension, dimensions, hook shape, etc. is incorrect, failures to extract will occur. When gunsmiths talk of "tuning" or "tensioning" a 1911 extractor, what they are actually talking about is bending it. An external extractor has a separate spring that is not highly stressed every time the gun fires.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Whoa, back!
Part of the reason that early production and GI 1911s were so dead
reliable was that the extractor WAS a spring. The problem with
late-production extractors is that they aren't. They're made from
tempered 4340 barstock...at least the good ones are...and
tweaking them is a little more involved than bending. When they
were made of good spring steel, bending was all that was needed, but
not so any more.
I relieve key areas to allow them to cam open without overstressing the
stem, and create angles and radius other places to smooth up the
function where stress can't be helped. All this serves to make the
barstock extractor act more like the spring that it's supposed to be,
but isn't any more. Tempered 4340 is very close, but not quite there
yet, so a little tweaking is required. The main problem with barstock
is that the repeated stress of operation removes the bend, and they
require retensioning periodically unless the extractor is tweaked to
make the operation more gentle. This is the price we pay for less
expensive guns.
If a 1911 owner/shooter would learn to tweak the extractor and
the magazine, he could fix 95% of the functional issues that occur, in
about 10 minutes...and...if the extractor is just slightly modified, and
tension correctly set, you can forget extractor-related malfunctions for
about 30 or 40 thousand rounds. Note that these mods aren't required
with a real spring extractor. Understanding WHY a malfunction happens,
WHAT caused it, and WHERE to go to fix it is the essence of fine-tuning.
MOST functional issues in a 1911 are simple, and are just as simple to
fix...and one of these two things is usually at fault. It's usually the
magazine, and in that, it's usually the magazine spring tension
or an improper follower or follower angle. Eliminate the magazine
problem first, then turn to the extractor. Get those things addressed, and that 1911 will be so reliable that it's boring.
I have an old GI extractor...one of several that I use in one range beater...that has worn three pistols out, and it has never needed retensioning since the initial setting in one pistol In all the years and the tens of thousands of rounds that have gone past it, there have been maybe 5 extraction failures, and those were the fault of the ammunition. That frequency will likely occur with any extractor in any pistol...internal OR external.
The advantage of the internal is that it's easily serviced or replaced in
the field without tools. Not so for the external. Probably not as important
on a pistol that won't be dragged through the mud, rain, and dust far from
the help of an armorer, but still somewhat valid...at least for me.
Cheers all!
Tuner
Part of the reason that early production and GI 1911s were so dead
reliable was that the extractor WAS a spring. The problem with
late-production extractors is that they aren't. They're made from
tempered 4340 barstock...at least the good ones are...and
tweaking them is a little more involved than bending. When they
were made of good spring steel, bending was all that was needed, but
not so any more.
I relieve key areas to allow them to cam open without overstressing the
stem, and create angles and radius other places to smooth up the
function where stress can't be helped. All this serves to make the
barstock extractor act more like the spring that it's supposed to be,
but isn't any more. Tempered 4340 is very close, but not quite there
yet, so a little tweaking is required. The main problem with barstock
is that the repeated stress of operation removes the bend, and they
require retensioning periodically unless the extractor is tweaked to
make the operation more gentle. This is the price we pay for less
expensive guns.
If a 1911 owner/shooter would learn to tweak the extractor and
the magazine, he could fix 95% of the functional issues that occur, in
about 10 minutes...and...if the extractor is just slightly modified, and
tension correctly set, you can forget extractor-related malfunctions for
about 30 or 40 thousand rounds. Note that these mods aren't required
with a real spring extractor. Understanding WHY a malfunction happens,
WHAT caused it, and WHERE to go to fix it is the essence of fine-tuning.
MOST functional issues in a 1911 are simple, and are just as simple to
fix...and one of these two things is usually at fault. It's usually the
magazine, and in that, it's usually the magazine spring tension
or an improper follower or follower angle. Eliminate the magazine
problem first, then turn to the extractor. Get those things addressed, and that 1911 will be so reliable that it's boring.
I have an old GI extractor...one of several that I use in one range beater...that has worn three pistols out, and it has never needed retensioning since the initial setting in one pistol In all the years and the tens of thousands of rounds that have gone past it, there have been maybe 5 extraction failures, and those were the fault of the ammunition. That frequency will likely occur with any extractor in any pistol...internal OR external.
The advantage of the internal is that it's easily serviced or replaced in
the field without tools. Not so for the external. Probably not as important
on a pistol that won't be dragged through the mud, rain, and dust far from
the help of an armorer, but still somewhat valid...at least for me.
Cheers all!
Tuner
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 4,925
The internal extractor is a weak point because current 1911 makers have made it so, by taking material short-cuts not accounted for in the original design, and by making QC something the customer does themselves.
The design is a proven and effective one, one that is so good that it takes extraordianry effort to come up with materials cheap enough to make it fail. Having done so, however, the various companies have come up with new external extractor designs to fix their self-inflicted problem. A bit like designing titanium shoes so you don't hurt yourself when you shoot yourself in the foot, rather than simply not shooting your feet.
The design is a proven and effective one, one that is so good that it takes extraordianry effort to come up with materials cheap enough to make it fail. Having done so, however, the various companies have come up with new external extractor designs to fix their self-inflicted problem. A bit like designing titanium shoes so you don't hurt yourself when you shoot yourself in the foot, rather than simply not shooting your feet.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Shot in the Foot
I like Sean's response! Mind if I use that analogy sometime?
Cheers!
Tuner
I like Sean's response! Mind if I use that analogy sometime?
Cheers!
Tuner
Gary G23
Member
The external extractors are the reason I am back to being a 1911 owner. The 1911 is the greatest pistol out there WHEN it's working and I hope the external extractors will keep them working. Only time will tell as I have only had my Kimber Tactical Pro II for two weeks. For me anyway if I pay several hundred dollars for a pistol I don't think I should have to have it "tweaked" before I can use it.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
re: Gary's Return
Welcome back to the Browning Fold, Gary!
A good external with a good spring should do fine. It worked on
the P-35, and should on the 1911, too. The key word is "GOOD".
Bean counters stay up nights trying to save 2 cents per gun here and
there. It's like an unwritten law or somethin'. JMB probably had a
round or two with'em, and finally wound up sayin':
"I told you TWICE, dammit..NO!
A wise old Gunnery Sargeant told me once: Your equipment was
supplied by the lowest bidder." Since 1911s don't go to war any
more...at least not on a large scale...the primary reason that they're
being built is to sell. Profit is the driving force...not keeping
soldiers alive so they can win wars.
Assuming good components, I have no problem with an external other than
ease of service/maintenance. I like bein' able to gut a 1911 without
tools in under a minute...under all conditions. Let that tiny spring
get away from you in the field, or even in your kitchen, and the pistol
is out of the game.
Luck to ya!
Tuner
Welcome back to the Browning Fold, Gary!
A good external with a good spring should do fine. It worked on
the P-35, and should on the 1911, too. The key word is "GOOD".
Bean counters stay up nights trying to save 2 cents per gun here and
there. It's like an unwritten law or somethin'. JMB probably had a
round or two with'em, and finally wound up sayin':
"I told you TWICE, dammit..NO!
A wise old Gunnery Sargeant told me once: Your equipment was
supplied by the lowest bidder." Since 1911s don't go to war any
more...at least not on a large scale...the primary reason that they're
being built is to sell. Profit is the driving force...not keeping
soldiers alive so they can win wars.
Assuming good components, I have no problem with an external other than
ease of service/maintenance. I like bein' able to gut a 1911 without
tools in under a minute...under all conditions. Let that tiny spring
get away from you in the field, or even in your kitchen, and the pistol
is out of the game.
Luck to ya!
Tuner
MacPelto
Member
Does anybody still make spring steel extractors? If not, how hard is it to get an older one and fit it up to a current pistol?
I've read Cylinder and slide produces a "spring steel" extractor. True or not, I don't know.
My internals have been great, no trouble for many, many rounds. But, at $20-30 it might not be a bad idea just to replace them at certain round counts instead of waiting for it to break... cheap insurance.
My internals have been great, no trouble for many, many rounds. But, at $20-30 it might not be a bad idea just to replace them at certain round counts instead of waiting for it to break... cheap insurance.
Wildalaska
member
C&S makes spring steel extractors....
WildinternalisOKAlaska
WildinternalisOKAlaska
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Why Why Why
Tuner,
Why in the world do the manufacturers not use spring steel any more for extractors?
Steve
Money. 1911s aren't built to carry to war any more. They are
built to sell for profit. Some bean counter discovered that barstock
extractors are a buck cheaper, and the rest is history. Not only that,
but they aren't manufactured in-house any more. They found out
that a contractor will make them another buck cheaper than THEY
can make them...See the part about your equipment being supplied
by the lowest bidder. I don't even want to get into investment
castings or MIM.
Cylinder and Slide does make real spring steel extractors, and
the prices are in line with good, tempered 4340 parts. One
problem is that they seem to be out-of-spec in some lots. Haven't
seen it, but have heard of the bad ones. The bad ones are reported
to be too long from the front pad to the front of the hook. They
make contact with the barrel. C&S will replace a bad one, but
they take their time. Again...This is rumored, and I haven't actually
seen a bad one. I use modified Wilson Bulletproof extractors, and
have had excellent results with them. The mod is easy to do. I
will provide details if anybody wants.
Standin' by...
Tuner
Tuner,
Why in the world do the manufacturers not use spring steel any more for extractors?
Steve
Money. 1911s aren't built to carry to war any more. They are
built to sell for profit. Some bean counter discovered that barstock
extractors are a buck cheaper, and the rest is history. Not only that,
but they aren't manufactured in-house any more. They found out
that a contractor will make them another buck cheaper than THEY
can make them...See the part about your equipment being supplied
by the lowest bidder. I don't even want to get into investment
castings or MIM.
Cylinder and Slide does make real spring steel extractors, and
the prices are in line with good, tempered 4340 parts. One
problem is that they seem to be out-of-spec in some lots. Haven't
seen it, but have heard of the bad ones. The bad ones are reported
to be too long from the front pad to the front of the hook. They
make contact with the barrel. C&S will replace a bad one, but
they take their time. Again...This is rumored, and I haven't actually
seen a bad one. I use modified Wilson Bulletproof extractors, and
have had excellent results with them. The mod is easy to do. I
will provide details if anybody wants.
Standin' by...
Tuner
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Extractor Mods
Be glad to Steve.
You'll need a small grinding wheel or a Dremel. Use a wheel with at
least a half-inch diameter if you use a Dremel.
A flat Swiss pattern needle file, and a medium India stone.
The center pads on the extractor are .205 nominal diameter.
Roll the outer pad...right side...on the wheel to reduce the diameter
about .010-.012 inch. If you know how to grind to a radius with
the Dremel, you can use it for this. Polishing is optional.
Now, go to the inner pad...left side...and radius-grind that one
to further reduce the overall diameter by another .005 inch.
Go to the front pad...the one just behind the hook on the inside,
and radius-grind it to .125-.130 inch, including the thickness of the
flat backside of the stem.
Go to the bottom of the hook and use the file to cut a small bevel to
allow the case rim to cam the extractor open easier. The Brown
Hardcore already has this bevel. On the bottom front of the hook...
the part that bears against the rim when it extracts, lightly radius
it so the corner won't dig in to the rim as it engages. No need for
a heavy cut...just break the corner a little and polish it.
Polish the whole front part of the hook, but be careful not to
round off the sharp edge of the hook itself. It needs a good bite
into the back of the rim.
To tension it...real rocket science here...Open the jaws of a vise wide
enough to support the extractor just behind the hook, and just ahead of the back end...the part that you see at the rear of the slide. Strike it
lightly on the inside center pad to create a slight curve along the whole
length of the stem. If the extractor is a fairly tight fit in the channel,
it will probably work. If it requires a lot of effort to install it, remove a
little of the bend by laying back on the vise and pressing with your thumb.
Don't shock it with the hammer again when reducing bend. if it needs
more bend, the hammer should be used, lightly. You'll develop a
"feel" for it after a few times, and can tell how much force to strike with.
BEFORE you install it, check the pistol for stem bind or other potential
problems in the feed cycle. Load a magazine with 7 rounds, remove the
recoil spring and plug, but leave the bushing in. From the full back
position, you should be able to feed a round by pushing on the
back of the slide smoothly with one finger. Not hard, but not gentle,
either. If it will feed easily, install the extractor and repeat. If you can
feel just a very slight hesitation with the extractor added, but the
slide goes to battery easily, you're done. The pistol won't need a heavy
spring to go to battery, and the extractor has more than enough tension.
The tempered barstock extractor now acts like a spring, and it will
cam open much easier relative to the amount of tension on it
than it would with the bend applied on just the front. You may notice
that your empty brass lands closer to you with the extractor set up this way. Maximum tension is applied just as the extractor reaches maximum
deflection as the outer pad touches the channel wall, and stress is
reduced at the hook.
Series 80 type extractors should be supported on the vise just forward
of the plunger cut-out to prevent deforming it. Aside from that, the
mods are identical.
If any of this isn't clear enough. let me kniow, and I'll try to clean it up.
Luck to ya!
Tuner
Be glad to Steve.
You'll need a small grinding wheel or a Dremel. Use a wheel with at
least a half-inch diameter if you use a Dremel.
A flat Swiss pattern needle file, and a medium India stone.
The center pads on the extractor are .205 nominal diameter.
Roll the outer pad...right side...on the wheel to reduce the diameter
about .010-.012 inch. If you know how to grind to a radius with
the Dremel, you can use it for this. Polishing is optional.
Now, go to the inner pad...left side...and radius-grind that one
to further reduce the overall diameter by another .005 inch.
Go to the front pad...the one just behind the hook on the inside,
and radius-grind it to .125-.130 inch, including the thickness of the
flat backside of the stem.
Go to the bottom of the hook and use the file to cut a small bevel to
allow the case rim to cam the extractor open easier. The Brown
Hardcore already has this bevel. On the bottom front of the hook...
the part that bears against the rim when it extracts, lightly radius
it so the corner won't dig in to the rim as it engages. No need for
a heavy cut...just break the corner a little and polish it.
Polish the whole front part of the hook, but be careful not to
round off the sharp edge of the hook itself. It needs a good bite
into the back of the rim.
To tension it...real rocket science here...Open the jaws of a vise wide
enough to support the extractor just behind the hook, and just ahead of the back end...the part that you see at the rear of the slide. Strike it
lightly on the inside center pad to create a slight curve along the whole
length of the stem. If the extractor is a fairly tight fit in the channel,
it will probably work. If it requires a lot of effort to install it, remove a
little of the bend by laying back on the vise and pressing with your thumb.
Don't shock it with the hammer again when reducing bend. if it needs
more bend, the hammer should be used, lightly. You'll develop a
"feel" for it after a few times, and can tell how much force to strike with.
BEFORE you install it, check the pistol for stem bind or other potential
problems in the feed cycle. Load a magazine with 7 rounds, remove the
recoil spring and plug, but leave the bushing in. From the full back
position, you should be able to feed a round by pushing on the
back of the slide smoothly with one finger. Not hard, but not gentle,
either. If it will feed easily, install the extractor and repeat. If you can
feel just a very slight hesitation with the extractor added, but the
slide goes to battery easily, you're done. The pistol won't need a heavy
spring to go to battery, and the extractor has more than enough tension.
The tempered barstock extractor now acts like a spring, and it will
cam open much easier relative to the amount of tension on it
than it would with the bend applied on just the front. You may notice
that your empty brass lands closer to you with the extractor set up this way. Maximum tension is applied just as the extractor reaches maximum
deflection as the outer pad touches the channel wall, and stress is
reduced at the hook.
Series 80 type extractors should be supported on the vise just forward
of the plunger cut-out to prevent deforming it. Aside from that, the
mods are identical.
If any of this isn't clear enough. let me kniow, and I'll try to clean it up.
Luck to ya!
Tuner
Sven
Senior Member
Gunsmith John Jardine says that a very common thing he gets in his shop are external extractors on newer 1911 designs which have been blown off the gun by a 'torched round'.
I'd never heard about this before, but a torched round is where the brass develops a small hole (usually reloads, usually near the web of the brass) and the hot gas escapes by the nearest exit, which is usually the external extractor groove... sending the part flying.
Jardine is of course a 1911 purist and while stopping sort of deriding the external extractor, he was basically saying "if it ain't broke, why fix it?". When asked why manufacturers have moved to using the external extractor, he said that the primary decision to do this is assembly costs. An external extractor can apparently be mass assembled more easily than of an internal extractor, which must be 'tuned'.
Just passing on things overheard said by someone who seems to know what he is doing.
I'd never heard about this before, but a torched round is where the brass develops a small hole (usually reloads, usually near the web of the brass) and the hot gas escapes by the nearest exit, which is usually the external extractor groove... sending the part flying.
Jardine is of course a 1911 purist and while stopping sort of deriding the external extractor, he was basically saying "if it ain't broke, why fix it?". When asked why manufacturers have moved to using the external extractor, he said that the primary decision to do this is assembly costs. An external extractor can apparently be mass assembled more easily than of an internal extractor, which must be 'tuned'.
Just passing on things overheard said by someone who seems to know what he is doing.
James Bondrock
Member
"Gunsmith John Jardine says that a very common thing he gets in his shop are external extractors on newer 1911 designs which have been blown off the gun by a 'torched round'.
I'd never heard about this before, but a torched round is where the brass develops a small hole (usually reloads, usually near the web of the brass) and the hot gas escapes by the nearest exit, which is usually the external extractor groove... sending the part flying."
An unintended safety valve? In such a case, without the blown-out extractor giving the hot gas a place to go, it might flash down into the magazine and detonate the cartridges. Few of us wear a catcher's mitt on each hand when we shoot.
I'd never heard about this before, but a torched round is where the brass develops a small hole (usually reloads, usually near the web of the brass) and the hot gas escapes by the nearest exit, which is usually the external extractor groove... sending the part flying."
An unintended safety valve?
In such a case, without the blown-out extractor giving the hot gas a place to go, it might flash down into the magazine and detonate the cartridges. Few of us wear a catcher's mitt on each hand when we shoot. James Bondrock
Member
"To tension it...real rocket science here...Open the jaws of a vise wide
enough to support the extractor just behind the hook, and just ahead of the back end...the part that you see at the rear of the slide. Strike it
lightly on the inside center pad to create a slight curve along the whole
length of the stem. If the extractor is a fairly tight fit in the channel,
it will probably work. If it requires a lot of effort to install it, remove a
little of the bend by laying back on the vise and pressing with your thumb.
Don't shock it with the hammer again when reducing bend. if it needs
more bend, the hammer should be used, lightly. You'll develop a
"feel" for it after a few times, and can tell how much force to strike with."
See, I told you he was bending it!
However, knowing how, where and how much to bend it is the "tuning" part.
enough to support the extractor just behind the hook, and just ahead of the back end...the part that you see at the rear of the slide. Strike it
lightly on the inside center pad to create a slight curve along the whole
length of the stem. If the extractor is a fairly tight fit in the channel,
it will probably work. If it requires a lot of effort to install it, remove a
little of the bend by laying back on the vise and pressing with your thumb.
Don't shock it with the hammer again when reducing bend. if it needs
more bend, the hammer should be used, lightly. You'll develop a
"feel" for it after a few times, and can tell how much force to strike with."
See, I told you he was bending it!
However, knowing how, where and how much to bend it is the "tuning" part. I attempted to tune my own extractor
First I'd like to thank 1911 Tuner and other who have answer my noobie questions regarding my 1911 on other threads on THR and 1911Forums.
I took my newly purchased Springfield Milspec to the range this morning with a Wilson Combat mag. In 100 rds I experienced the failure to eject (that I described previously on the next to last round in the mag) three times. I could have been limp wristing the gun one of the time as I was shooting one handed and the sun was in my eyes and I was trying to nail a pop bottle.
On the way home I stopped by the gun shop. One of the salesmen there (not a smith) tells me that the extractor has enough tension if you can clip a cartridge rim in behind the hook and have it stay there. He then explains that you have too much tension if the round doesn't fall out when you wave the slide around. This guy is a big goof ball so I take everything he says with a big grain of salt.
Ok, so I go home and take the slide off the gun and try to clip the rim of a round in there. It won't even stay put at all. No tension. I removed the extractor and it is straight as can be. Then I got on the high road and did some reading. Then I buzzed over to edbrown.com and ordered a Hardcore Extractor. Then I decided, what the hay, lets mess this one up. So I put it in the vise and wacked it but I struck it off of the center mark. See the red arrow in the image below.
I fitted the extractor in the slide an now it appears to have the right amount of tension (assuming our man at the gun shop counter knows what he is talking about), or at least it's a lot closer than it was.
Have I totall screwed my extractor up by hitting it off the center mark? I won't be able to make it to the range again until Saturday at the soonest.
I wish I had another 1911 on hand to compare this one too. There seemed to be *a lot* of space between the back of the cartridge and the breech face when I had the round snapped in. Basically what is holding it in there is the extractor holding it on one side and the wall of the breech on the other. The breech face isn't even touching the back of the cartridge. Is that normal?
BTW, I took the firing pin out of the slide while I messing around with the slide/extractor/cartridge.
First I'd like to thank 1911 Tuner and other who have answer my noobie questions regarding my 1911 on other threads on THR and 1911Forums.
I took my newly purchased Springfield Milspec to the range this morning with a Wilson Combat mag. In 100 rds I experienced the failure to eject (that I described previously on the next to last round in the mag) three times. I could have been limp wristing the gun one of the time as I was shooting one handed and the sun was in my eyes and I was trying to nail a pop bottle.
On the way home I stopped by the gun shop. One of the salesmen there (not a smith) tells me that the extractor has enough tension if you can clip a cartridge rim in behind the hook and have it stay there. He then explains that you have too much tension if the round doesn't fall out when you wave the slide around. This guy is a big goof ball so I take everything he says with a big grain of salt.
Ok, so I go home and take the slide off the gun and try to clip the rim of a round in there. It won't even stay put at all. No tension. I removed the extractor and it is straight as can be. Then I got on the high road and did some reading. Then I buzzed over to edbrown.com and ordered a Hardcore Extractor. Then I decided, what the hay, lets mess this one up. So I put it in the vise and wacked it but I struck it off of the center mark. See the red arrow in the image below.
I fitted the extractor in the slide an now it appears to have the right amount of tension (assuming our man at the gun shop counter knows what he is talking about), or at least it's a lot closer than it was.
Have I totall screwed my extractor up by hitting it off the center mark? I won't be able to make it to the range again until Saturday at the soonest.
I wish I had another 1911 on hand to compare this one too. There seemed to be *a lot* of space between the back of the cartridge and the breech face when I had the round snapped in. Basically what is holding it in there is the extractor holding it on one side and the wall of the breech on the other. The breech face isn't even touching the back of the cartridge. Is that normal?
BTW, I took the firing pin out of the slide while I messing around with the slide/extractor/cartridge.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Extractor
Howdy Dominic. You asked:
Have I totall screwed my extractor up by hitting it off the center mark?
Not likely, but it may not have the right geometry with the bend at that
point...which probably won't make much difference anyway.
The trick is to get enough tension on the extractor to hold the empty brass
tight against the breechface, and still allow a smooth feed. The shop
salesman's method is viable, but if you don't get the round centered on the
breechface, you may get a flase reading. Try this:
Let a dummy round chamber at full speed from the magazine from slidelock. (or a live round if you're VERY careful) Remove the magazine.
Pull the slide back far enough to extract the round, but don't let it touch the
ejector. The nose of the round should droop just a little as it clears the
chamber, but not fall down the magwell. Shake the pistol up and down and from side to side a few times...not vigorously, but not gently either.
The round should stay put. If it falls down the magwell, the tension needs to be increased.
When you get it right, remove the recoil spring and plug from the gun. Load the magazine to capacity, and lock it in the gun. Pull the slide
fully to the rear, and push it into battery with your thumb. The top
round in the magazine should chamber easily. If it hangs up, don't automatically assume that the extractor tension is too high just yet.
If it hangs, hit the back of the slide with the heel of your hand to put it in battery. Remove the round and look at the side of the case just behind the
mouth. If there's a crescent-shaped mark or dent there, you have some stem bind, and the extractor was installed at the factory with insufficient tension to allow a round to chamber instead of addressing the real issue.
If the mark is there, take the tip of a pen knife and LIGHTLY break the
corner at the TOP of the barrel throat, right where the chamber begins Go all the way around the whole radius. All you need to do is break the corner. Polish it with a piece of 600 grit wet or dry paper on your fingertip. Don't touch the feed ramp in the frame. Sometimes, this is all that's needed to let the round break over and enter the chamber. Repeat the test to see if the round will chamber more smoothly. If it does, you're probably good to go. If not, you may have to take a litle tension of the extractor, or check to see if the front of the hook is contacting the case in the extractor groove.
Standin' by...
Tuner
Howdy Dominic. You asked:
Have I totall screwed my extractor up by hitting it off the center mark?
Not likely, but it may not have the right geometry with the bend at that
point...which probably won't make much difference anyway.
The trick is to get enough tension on the extractor to hold the empty brass
tight against the breechface, and still allow a smooth feed. The shop
salesman's method is viable, but if you don't get the round centered on the
breechface, you may get a flase reading. Try this:
Let a dummy round chamber at full speed from the magazine from slidelock. (or a live round if you're VERY careful) Remove the magazine.
Pull the slide back far enough to extract the round, but don't let it touch the
ejector. The nose of the round should droop just a little as it clears the
chamber, but not fall down the magwell. Shake the pistol up and down and from side to side a few times...not vigorously, but not gently either.
The round should stay put. If it falls down the magwell, the tension needs to be increased.
When you get it right, remove the recoil spring and plug from the gun. Load the magazine to capacity, and lock it in the gun. Pull the slide
fully to the rear, and push it into battery with your thumb. The top
round in the magazine should chamber easily. If it hangs up, don't automatically assume that the extractor tension is too high just yet.
If it hangs, hit the back of the slide with the heel of your hand to put it in battery. Remove the round and look at the side of the case just behind the
mouth. If there's a crescent-shaped mark or dent there, you have some stem bind, and the extractor was installed at the factory with insufficient tension to allow a round to chamber instead of addressing the real issue.
If the mark is there, take the tip of a pen knife and LIGHTLY break the
corner at the TOP of the barrel throat, right where the chamber begins Go all the way around the whole radius. All you need to do is break the corner. Polish it with a piece of 600 grit wet or dry paper on your fingertip. Don't touch the feed ramp in the frame. Sometimes, this is all that's needed to let the round break over and enter the chamber. Repeat the test to see if the round will chamber more smoothly. If it does, you're probably good to go. If not, you may have to take a litle tension of the extractor, or check to see if the front of the hook is contacting the case in the extractor groove.
Standin' by...
Tuner
The idea that Browning was dedicated to the internal extractor does not hold water, and seems to be put forth by folks who have no knowledge of any Browning pistol except the 1911. The fact is that at various times he used internal extractors that were their own springs, external extractors that were springs, and external extractors powered by coil springs. In other words, like most designers, he used what worked in a particular application.
As designed, the 1911 extractor hook will not hold the rim tightly against the breech face. There is about .10 (.099+.01 per the spec, IIRC) between the breech face and the extractor hook. As the empty case is held for the ejector, its rim is not held by the hook, but by the extractor part behind the hook.
The reason for that gap is interesting. When what became the 1911 was under development, the only .45 ammunition that was authorized for testing was that produced by Frankford Arsenal. At that time, Frankford had little experience with cartridges that were supported on the case mouth (case length in revolvers was not especially critical), and some of their cases were a bit short. Fearing that ammo produced under wartime conditions might be worse, the army asked Browning to design the extractor to allow a short case to be extracted even if the round was not fired. The only way to do that was to move the extractor hook forward. This Browning did, and the extractor worked.
Once the design was adopted by the army, and functioned properly, there was no reason or desire to redesign the extractor system when the original concern ultimately proved to be baseless. Today, ammunition production is held to close tolerances and there is no real reason not to go to the external extractor.
As 1911Tuner so well says, the current problems with internal extractors are almost all due to poor material; 4340 barstock is bad enough, but some extractors are cast or made by MIM. These have even less "spring" than tempered barstock.
Jim
As designed, the 1911 extractor hook will not hold the rim tightly against the breech face. There is about .10 (.099+.01 per the spec, IIRC) between the breech face and the extractor hook. As the empty case is held for the ejector, its rim is not held by the hook, but by the extractor part behind the hook.
The reason for that gap is interesting. When what became the 1911 was under development, the only .45 ammunition that was authorized for testing was that produced by Frankford Arsenal. At that time, Frankford had little experience with cartridges that were supported on the case mouth (case length in revolvers was not especially critical), and some of their cases were a bit short. Fearing that ammo produced under wartime conditions might be worse, the army asked Browning to design the extractor to allow a short case to be extracted even if the round was not fired. The only way to do that was to move the extractor hook forward. This Browning did, and the extractor worked.
Once the design was adopted by the army, and functioned properly, there was no reason or desire to redesign the extractor system when the original concern ultimately proved to be baseless. Today, ammunition production is held to close tolerances and there is no real reason not to go to the external extractor.
As 1911Tuner so well says, the current problems with internal extractors are almost all due to poor material; 4340 barstock is bad enough, but some extractors are cast or made by MIM. These have even less "spring" than tempered barstock.
Jim
thanks tuner!
Ok, after reading your reply I dissambled and took the extractor out and just *looked* at again. I then realized that it would be best to do your tests before bending/unbending or any further modification and reassembled.
How tight is "tight"? In my post above with the pic I said that there was a lot of play/space between the back of the case and the breech face. Well, maybe I was thinking about what it looked like *before* I "tuned" (whacked, bent) the extractor. Now there is about the .10 of space between the breech face and the case that Jim Keenan mentions above. I guess I need to buy some gauges (along with some real tools) but just by eyeballing it looks close. Really, I mean with the "untuned" extractor it just wasn't even close. A round would not hold in place *at all* there was so much room.
When I do this the round doesn't droop much and it does stay in place held by the extactor and does not fall into the magwell. So that's a PASS.
Smooth and sweet. PASS! I am somewhat amazed and yet still skeptical that I could have actually done anything to increase the reliability of my pistol. But I guess I will find out Saturday!
As I mentioned earlier, I have an Ed Brown Hardcore Extractor on order. My current plan is to try to make this extractor work, and if I can then pull it to use as a spare then try to get the Ed Brown to work. So, I can whack.....er....."tune" the Ed Brown the same way? I don't really want to get into the "advanced tuning" that requires dremeling at this juncture, not until I have some inexpensive extractors to destroy while attempting to learn how to use my dremel tool (which has so far only been used to remove rust from my great grandmother's cast iron pans and dutch ovens). I am quite dangerous and unpredictable with a dremel.
If this works, I'll just be amazed. Almost as amazed as I am by the fact that I've been wearing my three pound government model IWB all day in a Milt Sparks Watch 6 without suffering debilitating pain. I think I am becoming a 1911 person.
P.S. When I spoke to the shop salesman earlier today I asked him if he had many folks ask for installation of a spring steel "
as opposed to 4040 bar stock" extractor and he looked at me like I was crazy. This place bills itself as a Sig Sauer & 1911 shop. This is the same place that installed a beavertail on my friends Colt 70s series and let him pick it up take it home to discover that the grip saftey didn't work. Sigh. They're really the only gunsmith that I know of in Louisville, Kentucky.
Ok, after reading your reply I dissambled and took the extractor out and just *looked* at again. I then realized that it would be best to do your tests before bending/unbending or any further modification and reassembled.
How tight is "tight"? In my post above with the pic I said that there was a lot of play/space between the back of the case and the breech face. Well, maybe I was thinking about what it looked like *before* I "tuned" (whacked, bent) the extractor. Now there is about the .10 of space between the breech face and the case that Jim Keenan mentions above. I guess I need to buy some gauges (along with some real tools) but just by eyeballing it looks close. Really, I mean with the "untuned" extractor it just wasn't even close. A round would not hold in place *at all* there was so much room.
When I do this the round doesn't droop much and it does stay in place held by the extactor and does not fall into the magwell. So that's a PASS.
Smooth and sweet. PASS! I am somewhat amazed and yet still skeptical that I could have actually done anything to increase the reliability of my pistol.
But I guess I will find out Saturday!As I mentioned earlier, I have an Ed Brown Hardcore Extractor on order. My current plan is to try to make this extractor work, and if I can then pull it to use as a spare then try to get the Ed Brown to work. So, I can whack.....er....."tune" the Ed Brown the same way? I don't really want to get into the "advanced tuning" that requires dremeling at this juncture, not until I have some inexpensive extractors to destroy while attempting to learn how to use my dremel tool (which has so far only been used to remove rust from my great grandmother's cast iron pans and dutch ovens). I am quite dangerous and unpredictable with a dremel.
If this works, I'll just be amazed. Almost as amazed as I am by the fact that I've been wearing my three pound government model IWB all day in a Milt Sparks Watch 6 without suffering debilitating pain. I think I am becoming a 1911 person.
P.S. When I spoke to the shop salesman earlier today I asked him if he had many folks ask for installation of a spring steel "
as opposed to 4040 bar stock" extractor and he looked at me like I was crazy. This place bills itself as a Sig Sauer & 1911 shop. This is the same place that installed a beavertail on my friends Colt 70s series and let him pick it up take it home to discover that the grip saftey didn't work. Sigh. They're really the only gunsmith that I know of in Louisville, Kentucky.
BluesBear
member
Which place is this Dominic?
When I lived in Louisville I always used Gary Roman at Firearms Service Center for the stuff I couldn't do myself.
When I lived in Louisville I always used Gary Roman at Firearms Service Center for the stuff I couldn't do myself.
Hawk
Member
That was my problem - due to lack of experience, I didn't trust my ability to work with subjective measurements ("tight") and actually invested in the Weigand bender gizmo and tension checking brass whotis from Brownell's.
I'd gotten a Dan Wesson Pointman that had been "rode hard and put up wet" and didn't figure I could make it much more neurotic than it already was when I got it. She runs like a Swiss watch now - I gotta admit that sometime between the extractor with associated gizmos and "drop in" trigger job, the Pointman stopped being the bargain it started out being.
THR was a great resource as was pistolsmith.com where I got an immediate accurate diagnosis concerning the hammer strut interfering with the grip safety (the pointman had numerous issues).
I'm as bad as anyone with insisting that a new gun work right - my Kimber Eclipse and STI didn't disappoint. However, I've been emboldened by the Pointman and just may take in another homeless waif. I feel the pull of the dark side.
Question for Tuner: what do you think of the Aftec spring loaded internal?
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