DougDubya
Member
Considering that the pair were on their way to a bank operating during business hours, and our common response to 911, yes, let's belittle dead men who kept bystanders from being shot.
FBI Miami Shootout Riddle.
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Mad Magyar
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Mr. Ayoob isn't on this thread, but on another that I'm trying to locate. This thread really gets intense....
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237975&highlight=FBI+Miami+Shootout
I've worked for the government for 16 years. Its all about liability. Something bad happened because of a lack of training. They got bad press. They have the option of admitting they need to improve their training, or blame the ammo. You know which one they did. That way no one in the FBI was at fault. They pass the buck.
The government is always looking for hardware solutions to software problems. If you soldiers aren't hitting the enemy, they need new weapons. How many times have I read a soldier say, "I just kept shooting and he didn't go down. The 5.56 sucks." Well, misses don't put someone down. I would wager your not going to find as many holes in the guy as he might think. I'm not bashing the soldiers. Its a cultural problem that we have become a society of whiney babies that won't take responsibility for their own actions. If you read the account of the FBI shootout there were SO many things wrong with their tactics it was ridiculous, yet somehow it was the bullets fault that it didn't find its target.
The answer to the riddle is................the cake is a lie. There is no cake.
The government is always looking for hardware solutions to software problems. If you soldiers aren't hitting the enemy, they need new weapons. How many times have I read a soldier say, "I just kept shooting and he didn't go down. The 5.56 sucks." Well, misses don't put someone down. I would wager your not going to find as many holes in the guy as he might think. I'm not bashing the soldiers. Its a cultural problem that we have become a society of whiney babies that won't take responsibility for their own actions. If you read the account of the FBI shootout there were SO many things wrong with their tactics it was ridiculous, yet somehow it was the bullets fault that it didn't find its target.
The answer to the riddle is................the cake is a lie. There is no cake.
Everybody seems to comment on how the bad guys in this incident received a number of hits from handgun bullets while still returning fire.
What they don't mention is the majority of the hits occurred after they had stopped shooting and were in the act of attempting to flee the scene.
Most of the gunshot injuries were inflicted on the bad guys by Agent Mirales using a 12 guage shotgun and a service revolver.
The aortal chest wound that one bad guy received early on did not immediately produce external exsanguination, he was bleeding internally and probably did not visually realize how serious his wound was and continued to carry on the fight until visual bleeding became apparent to him at which point his main interest was in fleeing the scene.
Nobody seems to mention that the good Agent Mirales continued to carry on the fight until the end with an extremely visual gunshot wound to an extremity that all but severed his left arm.
That wound was inflicted by a .223 bullet.
So much for the caliber controversy theory.
What they don't mention is the majority of the hits occurred after they had stopped shooting and were in the act of attempting to flee the scene.
Most of the gunshot injuries were inflicted on the bad guys by Agent Mirales using a 12 guage shotgun and a service revolver.
The aortal chest wound that one bad guy received early on did not immediately produce external exsanguination, he was bleeding internally and probably did not visually realize how serious his wound was and continued to carry on the fight until visual bleeding became apparent to him at which point his main interest was in fleeing the scene.
Nobody seems to mention that the good Agent Mirales continued to carry on the fight until the end with an extremely visual gunshot wound to an extremity that all but severed his left arm.
That wound was inflicted by a .223 bullet.
So much for the caliber controversy theory.
IdahoLT1
Member
From my understanding, when people refer to the 9mm over penetrating, they are referring to a 9mm using ball ammo.
Lots of wrong info as usual. According to the Ayoob writeup on this one of the perps took a buckshot wound to the head.
I'm thankful I used to own the writeup and pictures that that doctor did on this shootout as well as the Ayoob book that dealt with this.
Lots of bad info out there on this incident.
I'm thankful I used to own the writeup and pictures that that doctor did on this shootout as well as the Ayoob book that dealt with this.
Lots of bad info out there on this incident.
^Not true.
As I just explained to Doug, four of the five shotgun rounds Mireles fired missed completely. Mireles did manage to hit Platt in the feet with his first shotgun round.
Platt had already been hit numerous times by both 9mm and .38 Special +P rounds, BEFORE he shot and killed Dove and Grogan. Both cartridges failed to get the job done, even though Platt was not wearing body armor, nor was he under the influence of any drugs.
It's true there is a lot of bad info out there on this incident, and Ayoob has probably put out more bad info than anybody else.
Ayoob and yourself are both dead wrong.
Thankfully, the Firearms Tactical Institute has written a well-researched and thoroughly documented article that completely debunks Ayoob's fairy tale version of the shootout:
Firearms Tactical Institute
Tactical Briefs #8, August 1998
Sanow, Ayoob Shooting Incident Falsehoods Reveal Credibility Problems with Gunwriter "Street Results" Research and Data
- by Shawn Dodson
Complete article at:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs8.htm
xsquidgator
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Not to go too far offtopic, but is the account of the Miami FBI shootout found in John Ross' Unintended Consequences reasonably accurate (as far as the shootout itself was recreated in the book)? I recall Mr. Ross making a statement about how he'd researched certain historical events prior to dramatizing them, and what I recall of his accounting of the Miami shootout generally jibes with what I've read here. "Generally", but perhaps not so much that I'd start drawing very specific conclusions about exactly why the criminals weren't immediately disabled in the fight. My recollection from UC (which I suppose was accurate) is that most of the FBI agents' troubles were caused by poor tactics and technique, such as leaving revolvers on their car seats just prior to crashing into the suspects (and thus the pistols got knocked well out of reach in the crash), and by not having at least two members of the FBI team be nearby who actually had long guns (submachine guns?).
I think it's really a crapshoot about whether one single round from your 9mm/40/45 would be the magic one-shot stop. In the abscence of proof and all of the confounding variables (shot placement, bad guy clothing that might provide some protection, whether the round has to penetrate a car door, arm, or something else) I think it's still prudent to bring as many rounds to bear of the biggest and most powerful pistol (if that's what you have) you can. A 9mm may well get it done especially with multiple hits but I'd prefer something heavier and hotter if possible, if I was trying to stop an attacker.
I think it's really a crapshoot about whether one single round from your 9mm/40/45 would be the magic one-shot stop. In the abscence of proof and all of the confounding variables (shot placement, bad guy clothing that might provide some protection, whether the round has to penetrate a car door, arm, or something else) I think it's still prudent to bring as many rounds to bear of the biggest and most powerful pistol (if that's what you have) you can. A 9mm may well get it done especially with multiple hits but I'd prefer something heavier and hotter if possible, if I was trying to stop an attacker.
DougDubya
Member
Excuse me, Defensory, but people are trying to talk here utilizing documented evidence.
Rex B
Member
Min-14
"...the bulk of the killing and injuring was done with one suspect's Mini-14."
Can't be. That Mini-14 uses the same anemic .223 that has proven so woefully inadequate in the Middle East.
"...the bulk of the killing and injuring was done with one suspect's Mini-14."
Can't be. That Mini-14 uses the same anemic .223 that has proven so woefully inadequate in the Middle East.
Back in 1989 I was a newly-hired police officer at a midwest military installation. Part of our firearms training was to study the Miami shootout. In addition to a documentary-style film produced by the FBI and including interviews with the surviving agents, I had the extreme honor of meeting Supervisor Gordon McNeill, who spoke to our academy class. Based on what I learned from him, Shawn Dodson is full of crap in his article. Ayoob mostly had it right, I believe his biggest error was misspelling Agent Orrantia's name...
IdahoLT1
Member
jon in wv said:
Nothing, just people discussing their opinions on a semi related matter. I tried answering the OP's question but people would rather discuss a shootout that happened 2 decades ago.
HorseSoldier
Member
Scapegoating the bullet was easier than speaking ill of the dead and their mission planning (or lack thereof), etc.
Probably much more importantly from certain perspectives, it was easier to scapegoat the bullet than address issues with FBI firearms and tactical training, equipment, etc., which traced back to senior (and still living) agents.
Probably much more importantly from certain perspectives, it was easier to scapegoat the bullet than address issues with FBI firearms and tactical training, equipment, etc., which traced back to senior (and still living) agents.
DougDubya
Member
Hmm. Title of thread - FBI Miami shootout riddle - seems intrinsic to the conversation right here.
Mr. Dodson was only repeating the findings of Dr. W. French Anderson, a nationally prominent forensic pathologist and medical doctor, who had complete access to FBI records and extensively interviewed the surviving agents.
So your ad hominem attack only brings in to question your own maturity, rather than Dr. Anderson's extensively documented scientific findings.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs8.htm
During the entire shootout, several of the agents were no more than 10 yards away from the perpetrators.
Toward the end of the battle, perpetrator Platt (former U.S. Army Special Forces) closed distance on several of the agents, and was no more than a few yards away from agents Dove and Grogan when he killed them.
Kills at such a short distance don't really prove anything either way, in regard to the effectiveness of the .223 in military combat, where most firefights occur at considerably longer ranges than a few yards.
The FBI-Miami shootout basically proved just one thing---you need more than handguns loaded with 9mm and .38 Special +P ammo, in a firefight with a highly trained combat soldier armed with a rifle---ANY rifle.
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razorblade31
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Easy answer- the 9mm used by the FBI in Miami was the 115 grain silvertip. Both being a winchester silvertip and being a 115 grain 9mm militate towards underpenetration. The 9mm which the .40 S&W overpenetrates less than was the 147 grain loads, which which in the beginning had major issues with not expanding and overpenetrating.
Four of the agents involved in the shootout were carrying service revolvers. All were loaded with .38 Special +P ammunition. Though several hits were made on the perpetrators with the +P, it failed to end the fight.
Please remember that perpetrators Platt and Matix weren't wearing any body armor, nor were they under the influence of any drugs.
Actually, the FBI-Miami shootout was the primary reason that thousands of law enforcement agencies around the country abandoned revolvers entirely, and also traded in their 9mm's for .40 S&W semi-autos.
Of the four agents carrying revolvers, only one was able to successfully reload his weapon during the entire firefight, which lasted several minutes.
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