FBMG Shot show report

[Beren]

I swear to you, we will see a 6mm GAR (Glock Automatic Rifle) round before the end of the decade.

 

[Zak Smith]

I played with the SIG 556 for a while. Big disappointment. I was planning to get one, but now I will definitely not.

The fatal flaw: the charging handle position is terrible for right-handed shooters. Reaching over the top of the receiver is awkward at best, and if you have optics mounted, the optic and/or its mount will get in the way. Trying to reach under to rack it, the charging handle is too far to the rear vs. the magazine to reach it. This is a "NO GO" for running the rifle fast/efficiently.

Other funky things: mag release position was further forward than an AR15 or the SCAR. The optics rail on the NON-SWAT models is too high. The fore-grip is more bulky and less effective than it could be. The entire rifle is front-heavy.

On the other hand, I loved the SCAR. It is very light. All the controls are right where you expect them to be - where you need them to be to run the rifle fast. Charging handle can be switched for LH shooters. Stock was different but OK - I could get used to it. The design of subtle features of the rifle seemed well thought out.

FN reps said they might have a civ semi SCAR available, but not before the 2 year timeframe.

In other news, did everyone see the aluminum, titanium, and SS Glock frames ?! (Not from Glock-- some small company.)

Keep your eye on the Elcan Specter VR scope. This is the one that has a lever to switch from true 1x to 4x. I could see it taking over for the "single optic" for assault rifles (e.g. Tactical/Modified 3Gun class), being the ACOG killer with a few small changes. We'll see.

 

[George Hill]

No, I didn't get an answer to when the SCAR rifle will be available.
I started a new Swear Jar to start saving up for one though... Considering how my legs felt after the show... I've got a good down payment already.

 

[waterhouse]

In other news, did everyone see the aluminum, titanium, and SS Glock frames ?! (Not from Glock-- some small company.)

I can't find my paperwork from the company, but I think it was a company called Raceframes. They were pretty neat. I can't find the company online, so I may have the name wrong. They had interchangeable grip strap, and I thought the new frames greatly improved the feel, but Glocks have never fit my hand all that well so this might not be saying much. It was nice that these frames were there because Glock didn't have anything new to look at.

Things I saw:

As mentioned, the S&W M&P rifle was just another AR, nothing special. I got to dry fire the M&P pistol. . .ergonomics felt great but I had heard some pretty great reviews of the trigger and I wasn't that impressed with it.

I finally got to pick up a Taurus Thunderbolt. I had been looking around and not seen any, and I didn't want to order one without seeing them. I'm glad I waited. Perhaps it would wear in with some use, but the action seemed very stiff and the little forearm had a lot of play in it (I've never held one of the old Colts or any other replica of the type, so I'm not sure if this is common to the design, but I didn't like it.)

The SIG and SCAR were both neat. I'm betting SIG will sell a lot of them because of the "new and cool" factor. I ordered a couple, and I won't be too sad if they don't sell and I get stuck with them. I don't know much about the SCAR in general, but it seemed like a pretty good gun, and as Zak said it was very light (note to SIG . . .when you have 5 display models please have one that doesn't have 3 pounds of optics and flashlights on it).

Might be old news, but Kimber has gone back to internal extractors. I asked why, and the rep said "that is what the market wants." Seemed like a good response.

Spoke with the Winchester ammo guys. As rumored, Dynapoint (my favorite bulk .22 round) is just undergoing a factory switch and it up and running again. He said I could expect to see it back on the shelves shortly, which is good because I've been rationing my remaining stock.

I'm sure there is a lot I'm forgetting, but I'm too tired right now to get my notebook out.

 

[Henry Bowman]

Correia, I hope your finger stopped bleeding.

 

[BHPshooter]

I was very impressed with the SCAR -- the rep I spoke to said that they would have a civvy version out in a year or 2.

I was also incredibly taken by the new Browning T-Bolt. That is one nifty little rifle! I was also impressed by Browning's Pro-series autoloaders. The triggers were surprisingly good.

I am really impressed with Taurus -- they give variety an entirely new meaning. Their 1911s feel great. I can't wait for them to come out.

To tell you the truth, I saw so much at the SHOT show that I can't even recall half of it off of the top of my head. It was awesome.

Wes

 

[Correia]

Just got home.

Henry, it did eventually. DAMN that knife was SHARP. I was trying to keep my game face on and look tough, but when I turned around and the ramp behind me looked like a crime scene from all the blood splatter, I figured I might have bit off a bit more than I could chew.

Zak, I spoke with the Sig rep about this. They slammed these guns together at the last minute in order to get them to SHOT in time. This won't be the final config. Mako Security is the maker of the furniture. The barrel weight will come down quite a bit, as they have an HBAR on them. I also complained about the sight rail, though the first one I handled, I did not notice because I picked up one with Mepros on it. When I picked up one with the CQT, the the height was obvious. That will probably change also.

FBMG also signed up to be a stocking Sig dealer and I placed a fat order on Sunday afternoon.

The civillian SCAR is going to be awesome. After speaking for some length with some of the guys behind the SCAR on Sunday, I like the design even more. After fiddling with it, I'm not so biased about the charging handle either.

El Rojo, the new EoTech was the brown one that some of the manufacturers had mounted on thier guns. It is built for the new SOPMOD requirements. ARMS throw levers instead of the old single mount screw, and 900-1100 hours of battery life. I've got 20 on order. They should ship next month. PM me if you want one.

Zak, I missed that 1-4 Elcan. Shoot.

SHOT show was a real adventure this year. Saw lots of stuff, bought lots of stuff.

 

[Zak Smith]

Zak, I spoke with the Sig rep about this. They slammed these guns together at the last minute in order to get them to SHOT in time. This won't be the final config. Mako Security is the maker of the furniture. The barrel weight will come down quite a bit, as they have an HBAR on them. I also complained about the sight rail, though the first one I handled, I did not notice because I picked up one with Mepros on it. When I picked up one with the CQT, the the height was obvious. That will probably change also.

The charging handle config was the killer issue for me. No way to run the gun fast for a R.H. shooter. The rail and/or optics will be in the way.

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

Anyone have any thoughts on the new KelTec PLR 16 (http://www.kel-tec.com/images/plr_forend_sling_scope_large.jpg)? .223 pistols might not be the most practical things in the world, but they are stupid good fun. The Carbon 15 pistols from Bushmaster are a bit pricey, but this one could be a hoot if it was cheap enough. It lists for roughly the same price as the regular SU16, so it should be available pretty cheap.

I will probably get a Taurus 1911 when they finally, finally come out. And I will also probably get the new 9mm from KelTec for a pocket gun. And I will certainly get the civilian Aug if and when it arrives. I hope it takes AR mags.

 

[Nightcrawler]

The fatal flaw: the charging handle position is terrible for right-handed shooters. Reaching over the top of the receiver is awkward at best, and if you have optics mounted, the optic and/or its mount will get in the way. Trying to reach under to rack it, the charging handle is too far to the rear vs. the magazine to reach it. This is a "NO GO" for running the rifle fast/efficiently.

Huh? I like having the charging handle on the right side, right where I can reach it.

Oh...heh, that's right, you guys are right handed, aren't you? Well, my FAL has the charging handle on the wrong side. Not too much of an issue with the bolt release switch so easy to hit with my trigger finger.

Could be worse. You could get an AR, with a charging handle located equally poorly for both handed shooters...

Civvie SCAR? I'd have to handle one, shoot one first, but I think something like that might be able to replace my FAL down the road. Maybe.

 

[Owen]

That Elcan 1-4 x is slick as heck. Illuminated dot or illuminated reticle. No worries if the batery dies, because the reticle is still there.

I saw some neat clay bird hangers.

LMT has a great show special on uppers. Basically, buy a 5.56 upper, and they will throw in a 6.8.

I also got to go top the Long Mountain outfitters demo, and watched the dillon aero guys throw about 8000 rounds down range, and start a few brush fires. I haven't stopped grinning.

 

[Zak Smith]

Could be worse. You could get an AR, with a charging handle located equally poorly for both handed shooters...

The AR charging handle can be run by a RH shooter with a firing grip and the carbine shouldered. For a LH shooter, he needs an ambi charging handle latch to do the same action. He may have to move his head depending on stock length.

 

[Nightcrawler]

For a LH shooter, he needs an ambi charging handle latch to do the same action.

Why do you say that? Being left-handed isn't a disability, you know. You just accuate the little latch thingy with your right index finger. I never saw the need for most "lefties NEED this!" type accessories on M16 type rifles. The only one that's a must-have is a brass deflector. But I found that even the A2 liked to spit brass in my face.

Heh. Guess the M16 doesn't like me any more than I like it. That's rather poetic, actually. LOL

Say what you will, but I think the charging handle is the worst part of the otherwise ergonomically-sound M16 design. Well, that and the little tab-thingy sticking out of the pistol grip, but that's a simple fix.

 

[Zak Smith]

Why do you say that? Being left-handed isn't a disability, you know. You just accuate the little latch thingy with your right index finger.

"to do the same action" == brushing the heel of the left hand back (for a RH shooter) until the charging handle is at full extention. The catch is releaed upon contact. This can also be done by grasping the latch with the index finger and the rear of the chg handle with the left thumb.

Say what you will, but I think the charging handle is the worst part of the otherwise ergonomically-sound M16 design.

The charging handle on an AR ought to be where it is on the FAL or SCAR. But even where it is now is better than being only on the strong-side for the shooter, like it is on the 556, AK, etc. (for RH shooters)

 

[Nightcrawler]

Oh, okay. I see now.

 

[9mmepiphany]

RE: sig charging handle

if i recall correctly, the AK design was meant to be charged with the left hand coming up under the receiver...at least that is how i saw it done by their spec op folks

 

[NineseveN]

RE: sig charging handle

if i recall correctly, the AK design was meant to be charged with the left hand coming up under the receiver...at least that is how i saw it done by their spec op folks

With a BHO, barring a failure, the impact of the charging handle location is somewhat minimized.

 

[Zak Smith]

RE: sig charging handle

if i recall correctly, the AK design was meant to be charged with the left hand coming up under the receiver...at least that is how i saw it done by their spec op folks

Can't reach on the SIG.

 

[9mmepiphany]

BHO...???

 

[Nightcrawler]

BHO = Bolt Hold Open. An attempt at finding a short way of describing the device which locks the bolt back after the last round of the magazine is fired.

They really need to come up with a name for that feature.

 

[NineseveN]

BHO = Bolt Hold Open. An attempt at finding a short way of describing the device which locks the bolt back after the last round of the magazine is fired.

They really need to come up with a name for that feature.

Fluglebinder? Damn, that one's taken. Nevermind. :banghead:

 

[Srigs]

Oh yeah, me too. The thick body was what kept me from buying a P11. This one looks really nice.

You have to have various guns for various needs. Thats what I tell my wife. I have a P32 as an always carry in a pocket or IWB holster and a P11 for IWB or OWB duty. I think the new PF9 will be a very good niche gun.

 

[Zak Smith]

BHO = Bolt Hold Open. An attempt at finding a short way of describing the device which locks the bolt back after the last round of the magazine is fired.

They really need to come up with a name for that feature.

It's called the Bolt Stop.
http://www.armalite.com/sales/catalog/components/223lowers.htm

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

You have to have various guns for various needs.

When you carry all the time, you see the value in this wisdom. My primary carry gun is a Glock 26 that I wear OWB, but there are many times when I can't use that. Most of the time I can get by with a J-frame revolver in my pocket, but not always. Sometimes it's just too thick. That's where the KelTec will come in handy. There are good arguments for the Rohr or the Kahr. I've shot Kahrs and like them very much (Rohrs are pretty uncommon around here), but I hate spending that kind of money for a gun that will have to take the abuse of pocket carry. The Kahr is just too nice for that kind of duty.

 

[Correia]

Zak, I don't have a problem with charging handles on the right side and optics because I've got so much time running an AK or Saiga 12. Instead of reaching over the top, I flip the gun on its side, charging handle up, and run it. Faster that way, even if I do have to remount the gun on my shoulder.

The big fat knobs they had sticking off the rail on the right side got in the way, but using some ARMS quick releases, (which are cooler anyway) problem solved.