Felons And Guns Revisited

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TallPine

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Felons And Guns Revisited
By Kathryn A. Graham

Felons & Guns Revisited
Kathryn A. Graham
[email protected] (include this e-mail address in feedback)
I wrote an article a couple of years ago questioning our nation’s current policy on felons and firearms. It got a lot of play, and it earned me a lot of hate mail, but it also prompted a lot of serious discussion on the subject. In the light of some of the email I have received and some of the discussion I have “heard†in forums and mailing lists since, I’ve decided to look at the subject again.
The first very frightened opinion that I’ve heard from a lot of people is that the very idea of violent criminals possessing weapons just scares the living daylights out of them. I can understand that very well, because it scares the living "whatever" out of me, too (I would use a stronger word, but this is a family publication) - which often surprises the very people who read that article. So I’d like to address several fundamental misconceptions shared by most Americans once again.

The first misconception I see today is that most felons are violent. This simply is not true. In these days of mandatory sentencing guidelines, most criminals who did more than spit on the sidewalk or jaywalk are felons. Most drug possession charges are felonies. Most hot check charges are felonies. Most tax offenses are felonies. Most frauds are felonies. As a result, you have a huge group of felons today who are guilty of either unintentional or victimless crimes, and the majority are entirely non-violent. One of my closest friends today wrote some inadvertent hot checks thirty years ago, when she was all of seventeen. Today, she is an ordained minister who spends most of her time helping people. Nevertheless, she is branded as a felon forever - and forever barred from purchasing a firearm, although the State of Texas will generously permit her to possess a firearm in her home. And what firearm would that be? A gift that could get the giver in a lot of trouble? A firearm belonging to her spouse? Or perhaps a borrowed firearm? This is a recipe for disaster if I ever read one!

Another misconception is that state judges can restore a reformed criminal’s rights. On paper, this is at least partly true. Even on paper, however, only A.T.F. can restore the right to purchase a firearm – even if an offense has been pardoned or expunged! - although many states do allow possession in the home after a certain number of years have passed. What difference do the state laws make if you can be arrested merely for the attempt to purchase a firearm? So can these people make application to A.T.F. to restore their rights? Well, they can apply all day long, but it will never happen. For many years, the rights restoration program through A.T.F. has been un-staffed and unfunded. So it simply never happens these days. Never. And I know this to be true, because I have been trying for twenty years to assist another very law-abiding friend in expunging his ancient offense and recovering his firearms rights.

The simple truth is that we are creating an artificial underclass of people in this country. Felons often cannot get a decent job. They cannot vote. They cannot defend their own lives or the lives of their loved ones. They have problems renting a place to live – even most apartments these days do a background check before renting to anyone, and even trying to get a mortgage with a felony in your past is not to be contemplated. In the eyes of the law, felons have forfeited their civil rights forever, even after they have paid their debt to society and tried to go straight. As a result, they are angry, bitter and desperate people, often homeless, and the outcome is all but inevitable. According to Department of Justice statistics, the rate of recidivism nationwide in 1994 approached seventy percent! And that study only covers those persons arrested again for a serious crime within a paltry three years! What about within five or ten years? I could not find studies covering longer periods, but would not be surprised to see data approaching 100 percent. As desperation grows, so does the incentive for crime.

The even sadder truth is that the situation was not always as it is today. In the 1800s, if you were convicted of a serious crime, you received a much shorter sentence than you would today. In actual fact, time served today is about the same, but the total sentences are much longer because of parole rules. In any event, you got out of prison in about the same length of time, give or take a bit. However, in the 1800s, when you were discharged from prison, your belongings (including your weapons!) were returned to you, and there was a real incentive to move elsewhere and put it all behind you, because an employer in another town need never know that you had once made a terrible mistake. Even if you chose to tell him the whole truth, the extreme prejudice you find today against giving you another chance simply did not exist. You had a genuine opportunity to make a new life. As a result, recidivism was very low, roughly in single digit percentages. Why would anyone with a real chance to make a good life ever choose to go back to the slammer? That’s just common sense!

There is a compassionate argument as well. Why should a felon’s life, especially one trying to go straight, be worthless? That is the message we are sending, make no mistake. Take the case of the hypothetical gang member who was arrested at seventeen and leaves prison at 24 or 25 years of age. The first hurdle he will face is his former gang buddies trying to kill him – especially if he tried to cooperate by giving the authorities information about other crimes! He needs the means to defend himself far more than you or I do. You or I may one day be victims of gang violence, but that will be seriously bad luck. They’re actually looking for him. No comparison at all.

Finally, and most importantly, gun laws do not keep guns out of the hands of violent criminals. They can’t. It doesn’t make the slightest bit of difference what is written in some book of statutes somewhere. If a criminal is not concerned about obeying the law, guns are readily available to him. And the higher prices involved in acquiring a firearm illegally just provide him with a huge incentive to steal more. Crime pays very well. Sad, but true.

Let’s apply a little common sense. Assuming that you are like me, (i.e., no good at martial arts, aging, fat and slow), what gives you a better chance when facing a violent criminal? If both of you are unarmed, the chances are that said violent criminal is going to clean your clock, because you are deeply reluctant to do various vicious and bloody things that he finds no problem at all, even if you were physically evenly matched to begin with. On the other hand, if you both have guns, your chances are at least even. Your chances are better than even, really, although there is no way to measure them, because a criminal is nearly always motivated by self-interest, meaning that he is usually a physical coward. If he even thinks you might have a gun, chances are very good that most such problems will never even happen. You, on the other hand, didn’t choose to become embroiled in a life or death situation, but if it happens, you will fight like an enraged tiger.

I do not know why this is so hard to understand for so many people. Perhaps it is because so many are unwilling to take up arms to defend themselves – unwilling to take responsibility for their own safety, in other words. Maybe they are making a foolish and completely misguided attempt to level the playing field, but it does not work. The fastest glance at crime statistics, and how rapidly they have fallen where guns have been made more welcome, should show them the errors in their thinking, but it does not. What part of common sense is giving them trouble? Our founding fathers were no fools. "Shall not be infringed" was stated so strongly for a reason.

If you choose not to defend your life with force, you have that absolute right, and the rest of us will attend your funeral. Whether you reap an eternal reward for your non-violent choice is entirely between you and your God. You do not have the right to make the rest of the world pay for your choice!

America as a country needs to learn that the failure to legislate against something is not condoning it. We must recognize that some laws are unenforceable, and cease efforts to do so. Keeping guns out of criminals’ hands is completely and utterly impossible, so why waste the time and money trying to enforce such nonsense? When drugs such as marijuana, cocaine and opium were legal, drug usage was very low in this country. We’ve had brutal drug laws now for more than a generation, and all we have to show for them is an astronomically higher rate of drug importation (much of it by the CIA), usage (particularly harder drugs), and the loss of our freedoms. Remember that the Drug War brought you the no-knock warrant that has provided many of J.J.’s Whack & Stack incidents for the Sierra Times. The War on Terror has brought you a debacle in Iraq that looks like an excellent candidate for our next Vietnam, along with the freedom-hostile Patriot Act and possible sequels – yet the real perpetrator of the horror in New York in Washington, Osama bin Laden, is still walking around free.

Prohibition does not work. We should have learned that from the dismal failure of the "great experiment" of the 1920s, but legislators are only interested in votes. Being tough on crime, tough on drugs, tough on terror, and tough on guns make great campaign sound bytes. Maybe we should let our legislators know that we don’t like the smell of what they have been spreading.

A felon who is still dangerous should not be freed. "Rehabilitated" felons should get all of their rights back when their debt is paid, including their gun rights and their right to privacy. Debt paid should mean exactly that. Let’s give those who are genuinely trying a reasonable chance to go straight.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At a tiny 5'1", Kathryn A. Graham is a licensed private investigator, pilot, aircraft mechanic and handgun instructor in Texas. Also a prolific author, she has written numerous articles, short stories and a science fiction novel entitled Flight From Eden. She also publishes a free newsletter on Libertarian topics.
 
There are people out there who I think should not own guns. There are irresponsible people - I don't mean anyone with an ND in their past, I mean real boneheads who do stupid, dangerous things with regularity. I also think that someone who who has some kind of serious psychological problem shouldn't own a gun.

As far as felons: I think if you are convicted of a violent crime you should be barred from carrying a gun, at least for a while. However, I think you should eventually be able to have a gun in your house for protection. If someone did something criminally stupid in their youth and later, as an adult who's straightened up wants to own a gun, I think that's permissable too.

If someone's so dangerous that they can never be trusted with a gun again, then I don't see why they should be walking the streets at all.
 
My view, as a cop.

If a person who has been tried, convicted and served his/her time is so unstable, so violent and so unpredictable, if they are such a risk they cannot be allowed to vote or own a gun for fear of what they might do then why the hell did you let them out of jail?

Same applies for these sexual offenders, if they are such a risk that you have to make them register with local LE, then why in the flea-flinging hell did you let the monsters out of jail?

I don’t believe in Probation or Parole either; if you are sentenced to serve 10 years then by God you will serve every year, month, day and hour of it!

I also think that we should legalize dope, regulate it and tax hell out of it!

Legalize prostitution and gambling as well as get rid of about 75% of the stupid firearms laws in the country and I guarantee you this place would be much nicer. Crime would fall by 50% at a minimum and you and I would be able to walk the streets in a polite and armed society.

Most dope crimes are non-violent and could be classified as victimless crimes between a buyer and a seller, most all prostitution and gambling is likewise so what’s the big deal?

Am I missing something here?
 
A felon who is still dangerous should not be freed. "Rehabilitated" felons should get all of their rights back when their debt is paid, including their gun rights and their right to privacy. Debt paid should mean exactly that. Let’s give those who are genuinely trying a reasonable chance to go straight.

Therein lies some problem to her arguement.

1. A felon who is still dangerous should not be freed.

So you are advocating holding someone who is a felon indefinitely untill they are not considered still dangerous? Who makes this determination. A psychologist/psychiatrist? The courts? The Corrections system? She advocates for their rights , yet at the same time takes them away. A sentence served should be just that in her method of thinking, yet now she says if they are still dangerous they should be involuntarily held until they are determined to be non violent?


2. "Rehabilitated" felons should get all of their rights back when their debt is paid, including their gun rights and their right to privacy.

Again..who makes a determination that someone is "rehabilitated"? Todays correction system is not geared towards rehabilitation but rather incarceration. Even at the prison where I work as a Corrections Officer we have seen education programs drastically reduced as a result of budget cuts. So how should one be rehabilitated if no such programs exist?

As to privacy, do you advocate the rights to privacy of convicted sex offenders? Do you disagree with their crimes being a matter of public record? You can be I would want to know if a convicted child molestor or rapist moved in next door.

On a bit more cynical side, if you leave it up to prisons to rehabilitate then you are looking at a lost cause. As mentioned previously educations and rehabilitation programs are being drastically cut. Private corporations such a CCA and Wackenhut are making millions of dollars. Keeping folks in prison and making sure they come back is good for business. Why would they take an interest in keeping them out?


The even sadder truth is that the situation was not always as it is today. In the 1800s, if you were convicted of a serious crime, you received a much shorter sentence than you would today.

She is very correct. In fact most sentences ended at the end of a rope. Prison systems as we know today are a relatively new concept. It wasn't that long ago that we strung up murderes and child molestors. We didnt' have the ACLU back then as well as other organizations "championing" for the rights of felons on death row, even for those who want to die. Even today we are buiding "geriatric " prisons to deal with a generation of inmates seving life sentences that are getting older , requiring specialized prisons to meet medical and other needs.



Good Shoooting
Red
 
A felon who is still dangerous should not be freed. "Rehabilitated" felons should get all of their rights back when their debt is paid, including their gun rights and their right to privacy. Debt paid should mean exactly that. Let’s give those who are genuinely trying a reasonable chance to go straight.
All very nice-sounding, but in practice, rather more difficult... I work at a max-security penitentiary, and virtually every week, we release inmates who have completed their sentence, or are going to a halfway house to complete it there. In many cases, the staff look at one another and roll their eyes, because we know, beyond a shadow of doubt, that given this person's addictions and/or mental instability and/or anti-social personality, they're going to be back behind bars within months (some have managed it within 24 hours of their release!). We would love to have a system whereby those we know are so inclined would not be released: but there's no way under law - and, for that matter, in basic fairness and justice - that we can make such a determination. The upshot is that there is no way that "a felon who is still dangerous" can be held behind bars once his/her sentence is completed.

Also, who is to say when a felon is "rehabilitated"? There are many who hold that those convicted of non-violent drug offences should be considered rehabilitated at the end of their sentences. However, many (most?) of them go back to using drugs. They drive while under the influence of narcotics; they beat up their families without knowing what they're doing; and they are a real danger to others in their drugged "high", whether they know it or not. I do NOT consider such people "rehabilitated", I'm afraid.

By all means, "let’s give those who are genuinely trying a reasonable chance to go straight": but I want to see solid evidence, and a good track record, of their going straight before I'm willing to restore their civil rights. There are simply too many who fail in the attempt.
 
Yeah, I think Preacherman is onto something here.

You can't trust "the system" to weed out the high risks from the others. You must have certain minimum punishments and safety measures in place - measures that are not left up to the discretion of a judge or parole board.

With that said, I think we could certainly do a better job of defining where that line is drawn. "Felon" is a pretty broadly drawn definition.

Keith
 
Limiting the ban to violent felonies does not expose the public to any danger. Minnesota has done so for years with no bad results.

See: Minn. Stat. sec. 624.712, subd. 5 for the list of violent felonies that result in a lifetime nban (subject to judicial restoration of rights). Violent gross misdemeanors have a 3-year clearance period.

If prosecutors charge them right, the proper people can be disarmed without casting an enormose net.
 
Well, it just makes me feel so much safer knowing that (ex?)felons are breaking into my house to steal my guns since they can't just walk into a pawn shop and buy one with their girlfriend's welfare money ....

:rolleyes:


Maybe if we didn't put folks in jail for smoking pot, we would have room to keep the dangerous ones in jail longer.
 
Felons often cannot get a decent job. They cannot vote. They cannot defend their own lives or the lives of their loved ones. They have problems renting a place to live – even most apartments these days do a background check before renting to anyone, and even trying to get a mortgage with a felony in your past is not to be contemplated

Let's make it a felony to be an illegal immigrant.
 
Frankly, the incarceration and sub-citizen problem is only going to get worse. This is because of an increasingly tough stance on crime coupled with a increasingly large number of ever more stringent laws.

I have recently come to the conclusion that the present day legal system is terribly flawed. This is due to a number of factors, but I will try to focus on a few of the major ontributors as I see it.

First, the justice system is built upon the premise of crime followed by punishment. By this I mean that the process works in a linear fashion with a high degree of failure due to the complexity of having many steps. Let's look to see how it works in sequence.

1.) A crime is committed.
- if it is discovered -
2.) The crime is investigated.
- if evidence is found -
3.) A search is declared for a suspect.
- if a suspect is found -
4.) Suspect is investigated/interogated.
- if the suspect is still suspect -
5.) Charges are filed.
- if suspect doesn't plea bargain -
6.) Trial by jusy, with all sorts of room for error
- if defendant is found guilty -
7.) Sentence is carried out, possibly resulting in some measure of justice...
...whatever that means.

Our political leaders like this system because a lot of them are lawyers, and it creates jobs for LEOs, lawyers, clerks, prison guards, and so on. Likewise, these same leaders believe that everyone is entitled to a fair shake in court, regardless of their crime or the circumstances of their capture. The idea that there is any other path to justice seems funny to them as they are caught up in the linear crime and justice process. This mindset is also held by those who dislike the idea of self-defense. It is the idea that a criminal event must always be a precursor to the delivery of justice.

I believe in an old form of justice; it is very efficient and seldom misguilded.

If a man breaks into a convenience store and threatens the owner with robbery backed with violence, and catches a few slugs from the owners .38, justice has been served. The man is obviously guilty of having the immediate intent to commit a violent crime. He is also at this point guilty of committing the crime, as he is has been caught in the act of the crime. Finally, he has been found guilty by a jury of his peers, namely his intended victim, and punished accordingly by society, again the intended victim.

If the man breaks into the convenience store, shoots the owner, and then gets shot in turn by a bystander with a CCW, then once again, justice has been served.

If the man breaks in, kills all the occupants of the store, but gets tailed by an off-duty cop who call it in, follows the man and a posse of LEOs and anybody who wants to assist guns the man down, then justice has again been served.

If the man breaks in, kills all the witnesses and flees, then we may need the current system.

As far as non-violent crimes, let's institute a system of fines and community service. No, I don't mean talking to kids about the evils of shopplifting. I want community service to mean mandatory service in the military services, or for concientious objectors, service in a refurbished conservation core, with a mandatory rank of bottom of the barrel for the duration of the sentence. For everyone. Period.

(More later... Need dinner... Hmmmm, possibly beef.)
 
I also think that we should legalize dope, regulate it and tax hell out of it!

Tell me, please, what the difference might be between taxing the heck out of legalized dope and taxing the heck out of chocolate ice cream—or taxing the heck out of firearms, for that matter.
 
I think Katherine Graham is FOS.

Her friend "inadvertently" wrote some hot checks....now a preacher saving mankind. Well, in order to get convicted intent has to be proven.

Lots of felons, sure. Build more jails.

Comparing the fantasy of the old west to today; in the old west you got hung for stealing, robbery, rape, and a whole lot of other things you do time for now.

Parole/probation was originally brought on board to be awarded to truly outstanding prisoners or law breakers who fell under special circumstances which showed a high potential of living peacefully in society. Now everyone gets considered for parole/probation for every crime they commit. Parole/probation is used as a logistics solution for overcrowding.

Should a felon be allowed to have a gun? I think that violent offenders should never be able to but others, after a ten year period without any criminal activity should be reviewed by the judge.

Katherine should be a fiction writer.
 
It is interesting how some people who believe gun control doesn't work, do believe that it will work when applied to a certain segment of the population. (the segment that doesn't obey laws in the first place)

You do realize, of course, that all they have to do to implement a complete gun ban is to make everyone disqualified to own a gun.

You got caught talking in class in 3rd grade ---> you can't own a gun.

Oh, and since even wanting to have a gun is evidence of mental illness (according to some folks), therefore you can't have one.
 
*snort*

One of my closest friends today wrote some inadvertent hot checks thirty years ago, when she was all of seventeen. Today, she is an ordained minister who spends most of her time helping people. Nevertheless, she is branded as a felon forever

Texas law hasn't changed that much. In order to qualify as a State Jail Felony (the lowest class of Felony in Texas), her friend would have to:
(A) the value of the property stolen is $1,500 or more but less than $20,000, or the property is less than 10 head of cattle, horses, or exotic livestock or exotic fowl as defined by Section 142.001, Agriculture Code, or any part thereof under the value of $20,000, or less than 100 head of sheep, swine, or goats or any part thereof under the value of $20,000;
(B) regardless of value, the property is stolen from the person of another or from a human corpse or grave;
(C) the property stolen is a firearm, as defined by Section 46.01; or
(D) the value of the property stolen is less than $1,500 and the defendant has been previously convicted two or more times of any grade of theft;

$1,500 to $20,000 worth of hot checks is by no stretch of the language "some hot checks".

although the State of Texas will generously permit her to possess a firearm in her home.

If it has been 30 years, and if the minister has truly kept her nose clean, she more than qualifies under the expunction statutes of Texas Law. Any decent lawyer should be able to file to proper paperwork to have her criminal record expunged.

LawDog
 
Lawdog:
If it has been 30 years, and if the minister has truly kept her nose clean, she more than qualifies under the expunction statutes of Texas Law. Any decent lawyer should be able to file to proper paperwork to have her criminal record expunged.
Expunging state records is irrelevant to the feds. Title 18, Section 922(g) of federal law does not mince words: "convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year". And BATF takes that very seriously -- and they back it up with machineguns.

Study the Law, Dog.

Anyone who thinks a $1,500 paper felon deserves firearms prohibition after repaying society deserves not the freedom our nation's Founders bestowed upon us. More types of felonies have been added to the books in the last fifty years than the previous 500. Gun banners like that a whole lot.
 
I will make my traditional reference to Kilgore Trout's "Venus on the Half Shell" if anyone here would like to read about the effects of this policy reduced to its absurd limits. :rolleyes:
 
Expunging state records is irrelevant to the feds. Title 18, Section 922(g) of federal law does not mince words: "convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year". And BATF takes that very seriously -- and they back it up with machineguns.

Study the Law, Dog.

*snort* Teach your grandmother to suck eggs while you're at it.

United States Code, Title 18, 921(a)(20)(B), to wit:
What constitutes a conviction of such a crime shall be determined in accordance with the law of the jurisdiction in which the proceedings were held. Any conviction which has been expunged, or set aside or for which a person has been pardoned or has had civil rights restored shall not be considered a conviction for purposes of this chapter, unless such pardon, expungement, or restoration of civil rights expressly provides that the person may not ship, transport, possess, or receive firearms.

Highlights, bold type, italics and underlining are mine.

LawDog
 
Since I am apparently totally clueless when it comes to the law, I decided to hit the NARA Archives and see what the ATF has to say about State expunctions for felony convictions.

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms regualtions are here:

http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_02/27cfrv1_02.html

The relevant ATF regulation is 178.142, titled, catchily enough: "Effect of pardons and expunctions of convictions."

The text reads as follows:
Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 27, Volume 1]
[Revised as of April 1, 2002]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 27CFR178.142]

[Page 1194]

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER I--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS, DEPARTMENT OF THE
TREASURY

PART 178--COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents

Subpart I--Exemptions, Seizures, and Forfeitures

Sec. 178.142 Effect of pardons and expunctions of convictions.

(a) A pardon granted by the President of the United States regarding
a Federal conviction for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term
exceeding 1 year shall remove any disability which otherwise would be
imposed by the provisions of this part with respect to that conviction.
(b) A pardon granted by the Governor of a State or other State
pardoning authority or by the pardoning authority of a foreign
jurisdiction with respect to a conviction, or any expunction, reversal,
setting aside of a conviction, or other proceeding rendering a
conviction nugatory, or a restoration of civil rights shall remove any
disability which otherwise would be imposed by the provisions of this
part with respect to the conviction
, unless:
(1) The pardon, expunction, setting aside, or other proceeding
rendering a conviction nugatory, or restoration of civil rights
expressly provides that the person may not ship, transport, possess or
receive firearms; or
(2) The pardon, expunction, setting aside, or other proceeding
rendering a conviction nugatory, or restoration of civil rights did not
fully restore the rights of the person to possess or receive firearms
under the law of the jurisdiction where the conviction occurred.

[T.D. ATF-270, 53 FR 10505, Mar. 31, 1988]

Again, highlighting and italics are the work of Your Very Own non-Law-Reading Dog.

LawDog
 
Excellent post, TallPine. I understand some people's immediate reaction to the "felons with guns" thing. Most people think of rapists, child molesters, murderes and armed robbers when they think of "felons". Unfortunately, the bar for what constitutes a felon has been lowered to the point where I'd be willing to bet many of us have unwittingly committed a felony at some point -- heck, I know a number of people who were shocked when I explained to them the nuances of what constituted a crime vis-a-vis "hi-cap" magazines.
 
Please do synopsize, at your leisure.
The book is a parody, in fact it is a parody of a parody as its author is actually a fictional character from Kurt Vonnegut's imagination. Imagine a mid 20th century version of Gulliver's Travels which holds nothing sacred in religion, philosophy, politics nor history.

One chapter is devoted to the question of what would happen if everyone were in prison for trivial offenses. Trout then reduces this question to its logical and utterly absurd end.

I'm afraid any decent synopsis would run about three times the length of the book itself so it would be better to pick up a shopworn copy of it for a couple of bucks or senf off for it on interlibrary loan.

http://www.duke.edu/~crh4/vonnegut/trout/kt_wp.html
 
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