Felony stop leaves family traumatized

[Zak Smith]

To keep this thread constructive, I'll pose this question:

Given what happened, what should happen next?

I propose the following:

1. A public apology by the police departments involved and the officers involved - both at the scene and in dispatch/where-ever the "elevated status" came from

2. Full restitution for destroyed property (the dog)

3. Restitution for any medical problems the family had due to the event (e.g. the guy had to go to the hospital because he was so worked up), including pain and suffering, emotional distress, etc.

4. The family should receive a "we're sorry we violated your rights" payment, which would also act as a punitive measure against the P.D. and/or all officers involved

5. Did I mention a public apology?

In short, I think whenever agents of the goverment screw up and violate rights - be it stomping kittens or discrimination - they should he held criminally liable for crimes (e.g. shooting the wrong person) and civilly liable to make things "as they were before."

-z

 

[El Tejon]

Derek and card, some states have statutes that call for the level of the offense to be increased if the animal is a LE critter or have separate offenses for this. Your animal is worth less than a LE animal because our lords in government have given notice to you serfs not to interfere with the knights' animals. Now go back to your plow and stop whining about your rights so we can better tax you to oppress you. Geez, some serfs!

 

[Admiral Thrawn]

What a crappy chain of events...

 

[jmbg29]

:banghead:

It was a FELONY STOP people. Tension level up a notch or two?

A felony stop for a wallet seen on the highway with the MONEY BLOWING AROUND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Note to Dick Tracy et al. WHEN THE THEIF IS STEALING, HE TAKES THE MONEY!

That said, there are a host of cops that need to learn the phrase "Would you like fries with that?"


My God!

 

[KP95DAO]

A cop, a shotgun, and a puppy.

Twenty two and one half years ago I was a witness to a "cop" shooting a harmless dog with a shotgun. It was a puppy that stood 12" high and was about 24" long. It's "mistake" was running toward a "stranger" in front of it's home. The dog was shot just after it laid down on the ground as it had been commanded to by it's owner.

That "stranger" was an El Reno, Ok police officer who had been sent to the area to check on a citizen call about a loose dog. It was not this dog. How he ended up at this house is still a puzzle. Before the incident was over this police officer had shot the dog, slapped the dog's owner across the face with the butt of the shotgun, and kicked the man's wife, pregnant at the time, in the stomach. And pointed the shotgun at me and told me to "Back off Mother F***er before you get F***ing hurt." He also pointed the shotgun a next door neighbor of the owner. The shot was taken with children less than fifteen feet to the side of the line of fire.

When the responding supervisors arrived I informed them of their officer's lack of self control and was told that "Well, we have to go with the officer's story."

It was a very intense situation in which, if I had been in possession of a firearm, I would probably have shot the cop. He was presenting that much of a danger to the people around him.

So, I guess I should refrain from commenting on this story or some of the asinine posts by some of the people here.

By the way, at about two o'clock the next morning the El Reno PD came to the man and his wife, sitting in jail, and offered them a deal. If they would sign a release holding the Dept free of any wrong doing they would be let out of jail immediately. They signed because they didn't know any better.

 

[KP95DAO]

Here's what they have to say about it.

http://www.cookevillepolice.com/

Rarely do we like to issue statements regarding a situation that's under investigation. But in an attempt to help clarify some of the information that has already been made public, I would like to share with the citizens of Cookeville what we currently know about the I-40 incident regarding the Smoak family as they traveled through here on Jan 1.

The first thing I would like to address is the fact that the Cookeville
Police Department was called in as back-up by the Tennessee Highway Patrol on this matter. Based on the information we were provided, our role was secondary to what the THP termed as a "felony" stop, a possible car-jacking. We provided this back-up, and were never in primary control of the scene.

Unfortunately, during the THP's process of gaining control of the situation, a very rare thing occured. The Smoaks had been traveling with family dogs, and one of them got loose. It appeared to be a pit bull, and as it exited the car, it clearly approached one of our officers in a threatening manner. Our officer first tried to call the dog down, but after it kept approaching aggressively and started to circle him, the officer took the only action he could to protect himself and gain control of the situation.

I know the officer wishes that circumstances could have been different so he could have prevented shooting the dog. It is never gratifying to have to put an animal down, especially a family pet, and the officer assures me that he never displayed any satisfaction in doing so.

Before the Smoak family left Cookeville, I, along with our Vice-Mayor, met with them personally to convey our deepest sympathies for their loss and for their experience. No one wants to experience this kind of thing, and it's very unfortunate that it occurred. If we had the benefit of hindsight, I'm sure some - if not all of this - could have been avoided. I believe the Tennessee Highway Patrol feels the same way.

Our investigation is underway to determine what, if anything, could have been done differently. We will also continue to be in contact with this family. I know it's small consolation to the Smoaks, but we want to learn from this situation and try to make sure it never happens again.

Chief Robert E. Terry

 

[Zak Smith]

KP96DAO's story scares me because the right to self-defense always exists.

-z

 

[WilderBill]

Should that ever happen to me I expect the offecer in question could expect his house to catch on fire some night...just as soon as I could get the doors nailed shut!

 

[TheeBadOne]

Lets try to reign in the emotions and give a logical look to this incident.

1st-I feel for the family, been a dog owner/lover all my life.

2nd-The Police got a call, they have to go, have to investigate. They don't have the luxury of saying, "Ah, could be nothing but BS".

3rd-"Why didn't the Police shut the doors". Felony stop. They are all pretty much conducted along this line (for S A F E T Y).

a) get as many squads as you can before you attempt (I say attempt because not only do you never know who is in the car, you never know if they are going to stop) to stop it.
b) stop the car with squads B E H I N D and to the S I D E (still behind the suspect car). This gives you defensive position in case you are fired on.
c) use the Public Address (PA) system (bullhorn) to have the suspects exit the vehicle 1 at a time and walk backward to you. (Look at the family statements, you'll see this is what happend). The key to this point is A L L the cops are quite a distance from the suspect car, nobody is a foot away from the suspect car door and "refusing" to just shut it. The suspect car is the last thing cleared, after all people are ordered out of it. Clearing the car is no piece of cake as not everyone does what the police ask. Sometimes a shooter is laying down on a seat or floor waiting for the cop to walk up present a nice headshot.

What I'm getting at is the suspect car is not approached until the people are all out and back by the squads. No cop is right at the car. I suspect the dog exited the car well before the car clearing began, and in fact before the last person was in custody. Did the family ask to close the doors? Maybe. Did the family say, "I'm asking you to close the doors because I have dogs"? Who knows. It's interesting that some posters have taken what the family said as gospil & that the cops omitted or lied. I think this was a tragic event. The citizen calling in thought he/she had reason and often times this type of calls catch a robber, a murder, a serial killer, or a child abductor. These calls are not to be taken lightly if you intend to live until retirement. We live in a mobile society, consider that. Everyone is in a car/truck/motorvehile. Right now as we speak some of the FBI's Top 10 most wanted are in a motor vehicle on a road somewhere in the US. Who knows what cop may come across them. Some people get miffed when stopped by cops for "routine" things like speed, stop sign, expired registration. You may think you know what you're being stopped, and you may even be right, but the cop never knows who's in the car. Perhaps the speeder he stopped was in a hurry because he just robbed a liquor store, or made a dope deal, or just killed his wife; and that is why they think they're being stopped, and they will kill this cop to get away. The FBI has compiled a list of Law Enforcement Officers killed every year for a long time now. Listed is what activities the officers were doing when they were killed, such as Arresting a subject, Serving a warrant, being ambushed by a killer, or doing a routine traffic stop. Wanna guess what's either #1 or #2 every single year since inception? Just wanted to give a little info out there. It'd be real nice if hindsite could be used in advance so they know who they are dealing with. Sadly it doesn't work that way.

 

[QKRTHNU]

"As a trooper went forward to cuff the suspects, Officer Hall and I flanked to the right to maintain cover on the suspects and the uncleared vehicle. I passed a trooper my handcuffs. He cuffed the last subject.

On a felony stop, who would condone the use of OC spray in hand as opposed to a 12 ga.?

He certainly could have hit the dog w/ OC instead of buckshot.

More importantly the family shouldn't have been cuffed in the first place and they could have restrained their own dogs.

 

[Blackhawk]

Well said, TheeBadOne.

The Smoak's two negligence contributions cannot be glossed over either: (1) leaving the wallet on the top of the car, and (2) not closing the car doors themselves knowing the dogs weren't restrained within the car.

Traveling with dogs requires that you always be aware of them and their tendency to get out if they can.

It's a sad and tragic situation, but stuff happens, and life doesn't come with "fair" guarantees....

 

[KornDogg]

I was pointed over to this site from another about this thread. I read through a little over half of it, so if I reitterate someone's point or miss something in the latter half of this, my apologies.

It seems like everyone here (or at least at the first part of the thread) want's to condemn the police. All at the same time while not one of us were there, and none of the officers involved knew the full story (like we do know) until after the fact... Monday Morning Quarterbacking at it's finest.

I think we all need to keep in mind that there were at a minimum, 3 agencies involved, with a total of 5 parties involved (the family and the "concerned citizen", along with the aforementioned 3 LE agencies). It is definitely not expected that all personel involved of those 3 agencies will know the full story (or at least the information known at that time).

I also believe that all parties do share a small bit of fault in this, and would be more willing to say that everyone just needs to call this a day, with apologies and sympathies expressed.

1) The dog. This seems to be the pivot point of this whole matter. If the dog were not shot, I believe that the family would be back home, enjoying themselves, with the majority of this experience put behind them. The officer that shot the dog was neutralizing a threat. He had no clue the dog was there to play with his flashlight. A barking a growling dog approaching me would have recieved the same treatment if I were in that situation. I commend the officer in making a clear, logical decision, and commend him in making a clean quick shot (from what I read it was a head shot, and would have inflicted the least amount of pain). Not all chemical irritant sprays work on canines, and also, reaching for OC while trying to handle a weapon meant for two hands can present a potentially dangerous situation for all involved, especially when the officer's primary job was to provide cover and safety for the other officers at that time.

2) The concerned citizen and the Davidson County Police. While the lady that witnessed the wallet and money fly from the vehicle may have assumed a bit much, you still have to commend her for at least noticing and calling it in. If it were not for people like this, many DUI/DWIs would go unnoticed and unpunished. People like these can either be a crutch or an excellent aid to law enforcement... sometimes both. While some say the county police shouldn't have done anything with the call, they should think about it and realize that if potential crimes are left uninvestigated, our sucessful crime rate would be sky-high. They did thier job with what tools they had to work with at the time. If they had not acted, and this was a legitimat carjacking/robbery, the possibility of the family's lives being taken would have been much worse than a dead dog.

3) The felony stop. Some asked why a felony stop was performed when no felony actually occured. Hindsight is 20/20, and if this procedure was not in place for suspected felonies as well as known felonies, then I'm sure we would have had many more officers across the country pushing up daisies. None of the officers on the scene knew that this was the famly that was allegedy robbed, and only knew that they were involved in this "robbery". A felony stop is performed only for the sake safety in all parties concerned. Someone said they would have gotten up, gone to the door and shut it, and would have sued for being shot in the back. Sorry Kevlarman, but you would have been a justified shoot as well... How would the LEOs know you were not going for a weapon? Pretty stupid... Darwin will take care of you in quick time if you act upon that kind of attitude.

4) The family. While the father shouldn't have left his wallet on the roof of the vehicle, we can be 99% certain that this wasn't intentional. However if he had not been absent minded about that, this would have never happened. They could have shut the doors on the vehicle (using thier body, not hands) while exiting the vehicle. They also could have restrained the dogs prior to even being pulled over (as they knew they could possibly be pulled over once the THP cruiser was following them).

5) Finally, the THP conducting the felony stop. The reason LEOs will not listen to you while clearing a vehicle is quite simple. It is a distraction to them. Thier primary job is to clear the vehicle, and restrain all passengers until facts can be straightened out, while providing for the safety of ALL parties (not just themselves) at the same time. Officers who are assigned to maintain control of those suspects that have already been put under restraint cannot risk the distraction of relaying a message up to those who are still trying to clear the vehicle. As far as they know, someone could have been armed in the back of the vehicle, and could shoot whichever officer is approaching to close the doors. Also to add, the officers might have left the door open to where the dogs could exit and calm down a bit. Approaching an excited/stressed animal who is in a confined space can be a dangerous situation, and also leave more of a chance for the animal to attack.

This is a sad situation for all parties involved, but unfortunately was justified. I feel for the dog, as he was the true victim in all this, only wanting to play. However, dogs have no fear of firearms, and cannot communicate as easily or clearly as we are capable.

My condolences go out to the family, and my sympathy goes out to the officers, who were only trying to safely do thier job.

 

[Cal4D4]

Gotta disagree very strongly with TheeBadOne's comments. It went very wrong under the direction of the LEOs. Honest people responding under threat of being shot don't add extra moves like closing car doors. Forgetting a wallet on your car is hardly contributory negligence to this scene. Basic feeling is no honest citizen should ever be subjected to such a clusterflap, with or without the dog blasting. Like a "no knock with fatality" at the wrong address, it challenges our ability to allow peaceful interaction with law enforcement. Further ranting should wait until after the investigation is complete, but this exceeds acceptable LEO conduct by an extreme margin.

 

[jmbg29]

(1) leaving the wallet on the top of the car, and (2) not closing the car doors themselves knowing the dogs weren't restrained within the car.

So now it is a crime to leave one's wallet on the roof. I once had a girlfriend that that left her purse on the roof of her car (more than once). Guess that makes her eligible for the F.B.I. Ten Most Wanted List.

Sounds like it is a good thing they didn't close the car doors themselves, compared to "wallet leaving", "door closing" must certainly be a hanging offense. Wouldn't want Mr. Triggerhappy to hear the scary noise of a door closing.

Chief Robert E. Terry

He has to just be kidding, right?:banghead:

 

[KornDogg]

I don't think anyone said it was a crime to leave your wallet on your roof, however it would not have happen if this man wasn't being absent minded. Keep in mind he wasn't pulled over because of the wallet itself, but reasonable suspicion (from the infomation given at that moment) he was involved in a felony grade crime.

 

[jmbg29]

Keep in mind he wasn't pulled over because of the wallet itself, but reasonable suspicion (from the infomation given at that moment) he was involved in a felony grade crime.

I sort of asked this in my first post, but in this one I'll be more direct.

What sort of mental illness/brain injury must a person suffer from, for that person(s) to believe that a theft has been committed when a wallet is seen complete with its valuable contents, in the road?

I've only been here on the planet Earth for 40 years or so, but in that time I have lost or returned/attempted to return/kept objects left on the roof or in the truck bed and yes, even objects left on bumpers or under hoods like wrenches, hammers, wallets, motel keys, gascaps, the extendable pole that the Linemen use to turn off electrical transformers, toolbags, gloves, etc., etc., etc...

Never, upon seeing any of these objects go flying, did I break into hysterics and call the cops to say that "Somebody just carjacked some folks, and he is throwing their money and stuff out the window."

I guess I just can't get my head to work in that extremely warped fashion.

BTW For anyone wishing to return things like wallets, and their contents, that little card thingy with the person's picture on it, also has their address on it. Put down the "John Walsh" cellphone ma'am, and slowly back away. :banghead: :banghead:

 

[KornDogg]

What sort of mental illness/brain injury must a person suffer from, for that person(s) to believe that a theft has been committed when a wallet is seen complete with its valuable contents, in the road?

Exactly my thoughts... this lady blew it out of proportion, and as far as we know she may have reported seeing a "struggle" inside the vehicle as this was all happening. Some people "see" things and let thier imagination run wild.

And to go along with that... if she's the one making false reports, why crucify the LEOs for acting upon it properly?

 

[Preacherman]

What I'm still battling to understand is this. OK, the unknown "good citizen" sees a wallet fall off the car, with money and other things blowing in the breeze, and calls 911 to report a suspected theft/robbery/whatever. So far, there is nothing on which to base any suspicion of a felony - just the comments of one citizen (who might be telling the truth, or might be a nutcase phoning in everyone for everything!). AFAIK, no business or private person reported to the police that they had been robbed. In the absence of a first-party complainant, rather than a third-party "suspicion of" report, how DARE the police make any sort of felony stop at all? Isn't this a classic contravention of the Fourth Amendment? It's totally unreasonable!

Now, if gas station X, or fast food establishment Y, or citizen Z, had actually reported being robbed, and the car had been seen in that vicinity at the time of the robbery, then I agree that the circumstances would change - there IS probable cause to suspect that car's involvement in the crime, especially with a report of money blowing around in the breeze behind it! Under the circumstances, if I were the person in the car, and got felony-stopped, I'd be forced to admit that there were grounds to suspect me on the basis of the citizen report, and I wouldn't even complain about being handcuffed until the facts could get sorted out. But to do all this without any reports of an actual felony being committed, on the word of a single observer whose bona fides (AFAIK) were not even checked, seems catastrophically stupid on the part of the agencies concerned. If they did it to me, even without a dog's death, I'd be laying Federal civil rights charges against them and bringing civil suit.

 

[2nd Amendment]

I can only hope this PD is still struggling for financingt 20 years from now due to the expense of paying off the judgement against them.

 

[TallPine]

More than 20 years ago, I got pulled over by CO HP on I-25 one night. I was kind of PO'd because I was doing the speed limit. Officer says "you're going to lose all your worldly possesions"

"Huh?" ... turns out my pickup camper door was swinging in the wind.

"Uh, thanks officer" ... get out the baling wire ... "have a nice evening" to all.


Fast forward to today, same circumstances. What would happen? "Um, guy must have kidnapped some girl and tied her up in the camper, but she got loose and escaped ..." call in backup, etc, etc, etc ...

:banghead:

Whatever happened to sanity and common sense?

 

[riverdog]

the unknown "good citizen" sees a wallet fall off the car, with money and other things blowing in the breeze, and calls 911 to report a suspected theft/robbery/whatever. So far, there is nothing on which to base any suspicion of a felony -

Preacherman got it right. There was no felony until the officer taking the report ramped it up to a felony. The citizen can't make a felony out of a wallet.

Some asked why a felony stop was performed when no felony actually occured. Hindsight is 20/20, and if this procedure was not in place for suspected felonies as well as known felonies, then I'm sure we would have had many more officers across the country pushing up daisies.

20/20 hindsight is what LE should be attempting to avoid. Rather than ramping a wallet up to a felony forcing the THP to make a felony stop, they could have considered that the source of the info was a citizen who didn't see anything.

I'm not going to blast the officers on scene, they were following procedures for a felony stop, but the folks who ramped this up to a felony and didn't determine what really no **** happened should be looking for a new job. The lady who called 911 didn't see anything. You don't have officers on scene conduct a felony stop just to investigate to determine IF a felony occurred -- or do you? Is that the procedure these days? Use felony stops as a routine investigative tool. PPP

EDIT: My guess is that the IA investigation will focus on the 911 call, what exactly was said, and subsequent dispatch communications. Just a WAG.

 

[Blackhawk]

jmbg29,

So now it is a crime to leave one's wallet on the roof.

Don't be obtuse. Nobody said that.

It was a negligent action that precipitated the events.

The second negligent actions that led to escalation of the SNAFU was failing to close the car door(s) upon exiting the car knowing the dogs were within and unrestrained.

 

[riverdog]

It was a negligent action that precipitated the events.

The second negligent actions that led to escalation of the SNAFU was failing to close the car door(s) upon exiting the car knowing the dogs were within and unrestrained.

Yeah, blame the victims. Seems to me that the negligent action was ramping this up to a felony stop when NO FELONY HAD BEEN COMMITTED Taking some untrained 3rd party observers story and turning that into a felony investigative stop is IMO criminal. Yeah, I'm biased, been there.

 

[F4GIB]

Blackhawk said:
"The second negligent actions that led to escalation of the SNAFU was failing to close the car door(s) upon exiting the car knowing the dogs were within and unrestrained."

OK, policeman - how do you suggest the driver do this with a half dozen armed men yelling at him to put his hands up, move slowly, and do exactly as we say ???

If he shuts the door with his hands, they'll shoot him.
If he shuts the door with his feet, they'll shoot him.
If he shuts the door with a nudge from his butt, they'll shoot him.
After all you have all assured us that the doors need to stay open on a "felony stop" and movement by the suspect is a "threat" to the officers.

If he ask permission to shut the door, they'll yell at him shut up, we are in charge, do as we say, etc. If he persists he risks getting an 870 stock in the mouth. At the least someone will smack his mouth into the concrete to teach him to respect the police.

The police want to be IN CHARGE, so the police are RESPONSIBLE for everything that they set in motion. You can't have it both ways!

 

[Cal4D4]

The clearest act of negligence was taking a vacation. They left the safety and comfort of their hobbit hole. With smirking apologies to Tamara and all who live in that part of the world, they shoulda come to Californy, its the place they oughta be. So pack up what's left of the dogs and kids and move to Beverly.... Hills that is. If you're a movie star (Zsa Zsa Gabor)you can even b*tch slap a cop and not get blown away!

I'm just so glad it isn't Kali this time.