Firearms research for a novel

Status
Not open for further replies.
I can offer nothing but discouragement for padding out a thriller with fancy new kit.

In today's economic conditions and tech development/procurement cycles, ten years is like the day after tomorrow. At the low end and the high end, 2021's infantry rifles and pistols, USAF's and RAF's planes will be 2011's gear ten years older.

In between, there might be some gee whiz stuff like the 25mm mentioned above and maybe they can even make the claimed soldierputer and improved communicators work.
 
I'd bet they'd still have the M4. But the SCAR is a good choice. I know our SF uses them. Our SF uses just about anything they want, any infantry battalion can use its funds to purchase specialty stuff, and individual soldiers can get CO permission to carry a different personal weapon into combat. My buddy, the head SDM instructor at the Stryker Brigade Advanced Infantry Skill Center, took his M14 (actually a M21?) to Iraq. I got out just before deployment orders, but I was taking a G17 and a Stoner 7.62 (which I never got because I got out...). We did recommend the Grendel as the SDM cartridge, but we got a new Brigade CO that cared more about pretty uniforms than weaponry.

For pistols, I don't see the US going outside of NATO framework save the specialty stuff. SF commonly use the .45 in 1911 pistols. Pretty plain looking pistols, but they have had a lot of work done on the inside. The Marines custom make their own 1911's, AR's, M14's, and bolt guns from scratch. The match weapons and sniper weapons anyway, and their version of SF get 'em. Standard issue is likely to be 9x19. The army just doesn't invest much interest in sidearms. They are almost like paperweights.

I'd say in ten years the biggest change would be that if we had new weaponry, that it would be dispersed like this. First it would go through development, then SF would get a say on it, then it would be issued to Ranger units, then the fast reaction units would get 'em, Stryker and Airborned units. Stryker units have lots of funding, they get some cool gear. After them, the rest of the infantry gets the new stuff. The non-combat units will likely get the M4's until enough contracts are filled to make a complete change. This is how it is going now. I've seen some pictures of soldiers in Afghanistan that have some weaponry with fused distance grenade launchers built into the rifle. I have no idea what it was, I've never seen it before. A Stryker unit had 'em.

The cartridge will be 5.56, but there is call for a different round. I recommended the 6.5Grendel, but I was looking at it from a sniper point of view. Others like the 6.8SPC.

Interestingly, we also fielded a test mule, the .50Beowulf. I recommended that one for checkpoints, for vehicle stops. Also for door breaching. My view was that it was easier to carry a couple of uppers rather than a Mossberg pistol grip which could only be used for breaching. Sufficient to knock out most light engines, our unit didn't go for it, opting instead to create new checkpoint doctrine using the Stryker's .50BMG, which worked very well. But the Coast Guard does use the Beowulf and the Barrett .50BMG to knock out boats from helicopters.

I'd say give your SF guys whatever you want. Be more conservative with regular units, and more so with the non-combat units. Some of those guys still have old M16A2 rifles by the way, and the Marines used them for half of the last decade as well.

Also know that each time a war happens here, we upgrade to an obnoxious degree. We have the debt problem because of this. The same thing that happened to the Soviet Union is happening to us right now. They overspent on war junk and it bankrupted them. We are doing it now, even though we don't need to. But the political system here is in bed with the military industrial complex, and short of walking in and shooting them both for infidelity, it isn't changing.

Oh yeah, speaking of ten years of development, which would be spurred more so by a Chinese invasion of Europe, you will see a LOT of robots on the field. We have ones now that carry gear, check for bombs, little backpack spy gliders, drones, and the Air Force plans on going full robotic in the near future. No more pilots. The drones will be able to do maneuvers that would kill a man. We also have an exoskeleton that turns infantrymen in to herculean killing machines capapble of lifting volkswagens single handedly. I can only imagine how that exoskeleton will be plated. Raytheon makes this, it won't be fielded soon, but if an invasion like you have planned for your book happens, you never know.

We fielded the M16 fresh off the lines in Vietnam. Using the wrong powder, wrong twist for the bullets, wrong barrel materials, no foward assist, and no cleaning kits for such an intricate weapon system. This FUBAR still gives the M4 a bad rep today among the unknowing.

Good luck with your book!
 
Thanks for taking the time to write that interesting post, yes I do have combat exoskeletons planned, and yes they are very deadly but they are only used by the UK and later on. They are fully covered powered armour with lots of technology but there will probably be only 10 or so. I should think to help the 5.56 "issue" the M16A4 should be the main US service rifle along with a NATO standardised heavier round. That should make for plenty of firepower, the British weapon is a much updated and lightened L85 so not only is that compact, it packs a 20" barrel. On a side note, the current L85 is slightly smaller than a GI M4A1 yet it has a 20" barrel as opposed to a 14.5"er.

There will be not much difference between GI and SF weapons on the British side due to the smaller army and emphasis on infantry effectiveness. Much like the USMC, which I respect greatly, the average British soldier is a rifleman and is trained and equipped as such as opposed to being a carabineer.


I have decided against giving the Americans your beloved bloody .45's :) Not just due to logistics and cost but because when fighting modern troops the 9mm is the superior round in my opinion. Whilst the .45 packs one hell of a punch against Jihadists it it very weak against even soft armour.


When the US gets in on it the majority of the troops fighting will either be USMC, Airborne or Stryker Combat Units.


6.5 Grendel, .458 SOCOM or .50 Beowulf (Haven't Decided yet, help?) and 7.62x35 Blackout will all appear, hopefully lending some variety but as for GI only 5.56 or 7.62.


And as an afterthought... .50 Beowulf for Breaching? :)
 
"I can offer nothing but discouragement for padding out a thriller with fancy new kit.

In today's economic conditions and tech development/procurement cycles, ten years is like the day after tomorrow. At the low end and the high end, 2021's infantry rifles and pistols, USAF's and RAF's planes will be 2011's gear ten years older.

In between, there might be some gee whiz stuff like the 25mm mentioned above and maybe they can even make the claimed soldierputer and improved communicators work."


I shouldn't worry, my aim is to keep it grounded but a key part of the story line is the way a small group, partly special forces part, (I don't want to give it all away) unlikely soldiers, can defeat larger groups of admittedly conscript forces and end up having a large impact on the war. It is an alternate future however and one that has the West investing more in the military and having more money, as a result of a much better economic recovery, the recession is moved back to 2005 and is not as severe. Most service weapons are either one 'a' model on or are special forces weapons modified for service weapons. With the British side weapons are almost all H&K as it is now a British Government owned company, merged with a revived Enfield. And remember, the M4/16 platform, and to a lesser extent the SA80 have been around for some time. Programs are around for their replacement so it could well be that continuous improvement is cheaper and/or better. To explain the difference in fighter jets the British government in real life turned down the offer for F-22's but in my 'universe' they accepted the order for 150 or so. I accept your points and agree that it is indeed a problem with many current thrillers that indeed forgo ingenuity, plot and sometimes any resemblance to the realistic portrayal of war when focusing on technology.
 
To explain the difference in fighter jets the British government in real life turned down the offer for F-22's but in my 'universe' they accepted the order for 150 or so.

Huh. I did not know we ever offered the UK any F-22s. Too good for even our allies, I thought. I just read that we turned down an order from Taiwan for a number of the latest F-16 variant, offering instead an upgrade with new radar for their old planes .

Your point of historical divarication must be a while in the past to accomodate such a deal, even if the story is set +10.
 
Yep the UK is privileged enough to be the only country that may ever see blueprints, exact specs etc. of the F-22, B-2 etc. Cuts both ways I suppose, we allowed you to manufacture a weapon based on the Lee-Enfield, the worlds deadliest weapons platform!
 
New factories in both Eastern Europe and the North of England & Scotland lend the UK & Europe significantly more production power to compensate for the complete embargo, I.e siege on China.
 
UK Standard Issue Weapons List

Standard Issue Rifle: L85A3
Standard Issue Sidearm: HK9
Shotgun: M4 Super 90
PDW: MP7A2
SMG: MP5B
CAR: L22A3
LMG: HK416-IAR
DMR: HK417 Recon
Light GPMG: Mk43 Mod 1
GPMG: M240B
Sniper Rifle: L115A3
Anti-Material Rifle: AS50
Underslung GL: M320
Stand-Alone GL: M320
Smart Infantry GL: L28 CDTE
HMG: L806
Automatic GL: GMG
 
Don't forget grandpa's shotgun, the germans complained to the Hauge over the Allied use of shotguns in trench fighting in WWI

Imagine what a shotgun full of flechets would do, it will penetrate soft armor and they can be made out of nails, something for your IRA guys. The armored suits would be a sentry (as in not really mobile) unit, it would be fielded but have no endurance, so you keep the charged up for a quick reaction force, on short guard duties, or as breaching units to punch a hole for the infantry.

Robots, don't forget the damn robots. Something that could be sent in 'quietly' for your defenders from the US would be sentry guns, basically a powered tripod mounting whatever they have at hand (belt feds have more ammo, otherwise someone has to drive a robot to reload), a camera setup for identification and targeting and a laptop, you could even have them make some out of Scotland Yards famed CCTV system. Only problem is they wouldn't be very popular with the locals when they gun down grandma too. Maybe program the targeting to facial recognition of Asian features (but that'd be racist...)
 
Cuts both ways I suppose, we allowed you to manufacture a weapon based on the Lee-Enfield, the worlds deadliest weapons platform!

Which is that?
We built the Pattern 14 based on the (probably rightly) rejected Pattern 13 for GB when you could not make enough SMLEs for yourselves. Then we changed it to .30-06 as the Model 1917 when you caught up on SMLE production and didn't like the clunky old thing anyhow. But it is no way related to the Lee Enfield, being more nearly a Mauser.
Anyhow, the very first Lee bolt actions were manufactured in the USA by the Sharps Rifle Company, later Remington. Enfield took over the type while we danced with the exotic Norwegian.

Same deal later, Savage made No 4s but I don't know how many made it to Blighty, a lot were used here as training rifles because all the .30-06 Springfields and Garands were being used to shoot at foreigners.
 
Whyinheck would the Chinese want to take over the UK? Even the Brits don't seem to want it.

Jim
 
I think you'll find we do want it. The UK are instrumental in the total embargo placed by the West on China. This crippled Chinas' economy and turned some parts into a North Korea look alike. The Communist regime know their time at the helm is limited unless they have a) an entity other than the national politicians that can be held responsible for the state of the country, like Hitler with the Jews and b) a distraction from the poverty, crime and corruption of China, nothing is better than a Great Patriotic War! Given the location of China an invasion of any West leaning country is improbable, except Japan and AS/NZ. These only really tagged along and wouldn't really be too much of a PR Coup. So China obtain Murmansk to use it as a ground for the invasion of the UK.
 
"Sentry Guns" a la Call of Duty will be included but will most likely be remote controlled XM806's as opposed to Automated Miniguns.

For the Civil Resistance 12 Gauges will be used, with a great variety of loads, from the most modern flechette and slugs to broken glass and metal ball bearings.

The Powered Combat Armour will be revolutionary, a massive step forward, think F-22 vs Me262 or FW-190 or LSAT/G11 vs Winchester Repeater. But will be fielded in exceedingly low numbers. Batteries are exceedingly advanced and are not a problem unless left without charge or battery swap. They will be supported by an IFV or two with inboard generators and spare batteries.
The Powered Infantry Corps consists of 24 or so intial members proving exceedingly effective but used mostly for Special Operations.
 
Long overdue, I recently read Red Storm Rising and found it to be quite good. If you can pull off a work of similar scope and detail, you'll have a hit on your hands. I agree with the others that there is no need to pad it out with potential future weapons and I believe it will make the book more unbelievable when we're still using the M4 in 2021. Just get everything right with current weapons, tactics, and strategy, and it'll be great.
 
Thank you, Red Storm Rising is a great book. Initally however, and it is indeed designed to be a series it is China against the UK with an anxious world looking on. Current advances will be included but not taken to extremes. An intended effect is the contrast between guerilla fighting, conventional forces, knights of the air, special forces and eventually Powered & Armoured Full exoskeletons. It is not a book dominated by tech but a key part of the storyline and background is superior investment into mil-tech and better funding all round making an even bigger surprise when the apparently bankrupt People's Republic attack a wealthy and powerful UK and, initially win.
 
Ta-Da!


Standard Issue Rifle: M16A4
Standard Issue Sidearm: M9A1
Shotgun: M1014
PDW: FN P90 TR
SMG: MP5N
CAR: M4A2
LMG: M249 PIP
DMR: Mk14 Mod 0 EBR
Light GPMG: M240L
GPMG: M240B
Sniper Rifle: M2010
Anti-Material Rifle: M107A1
Underslung GL: M320
Stand-Alone GL: M320
Smart Infantry GL: M28 CDTE
HMG: M806
Automatic GL: Mk19
 
In today's economic conditions and tech development/procurement cycles, ten years is like the day after tomorrow. At the low end and the high end, 2021's infantry rifles and pistols, USAF's and RAF's planes will be 2011's gear ten years older.
I agree for the most-part, and judging from our friendly neighborhood author's last post (#43), he does too. If I'm not mistaken, all of those weapons are standard issue right now. Every one of em that I have personal experience with is a great weapon (IMHO) that will be hard to replace... only exception is the M9.
 
we allowed you to manufacture a weapon based on the Lee-Enfield
Actually laddie we rejected James Paris Lee's design which passed your trials in 1887. Remington was making the Remington-Lee contemporary to English adoption... So you should be thanking US Ordinance for rejecting the design and sending Lee your way...:neener:
Actually Remington began manufacture in 1881...
 
Last edited:
I'm pretty sure you rejected the Lee-Metford.
I made a mistake in thinking the M1917 Enfield Pattern was heavily based on the SMLE which, in fact, it was not.
One thing I'm confused about, which given your username is possibly an area of interest, is how Americans can possibly support the .45 ACP as a modern service cartridge. I understand that much of the hatred of 9x19 is due to the use of the M9, a second rate pistol, using standard pressure 124 grain. At least using a good pistol such as a SIG Sauer, Glock, HK etc. with +P/+P+ ammo the 9mm is very effective against some body armour whereas .45 ACP is not.
 
I read somewhere that .45 ACP is as American as the American flag itself. I'm tempted to agree.

I'm not knowledgeable enough to explain the benefits of .45 ACP, if indeed there are any benefits specific to the caliber, but from the first time I fired it, I loved it, and I still do. Can't explain why.
 
I'm not up on military armor, but level II armor stops most 9mm fired from pistols.

If armor piercing ability was really important, you'd think more people would use the 5.7 pistol.

It looks to me like trends are the other direction: .40SW and .45 to units who can get them.
 
I think that is falling into the trap of preparing for the last war. Whilst not wishing to disrespect those fighting/have fought/casualties in the current Middle Eastern conflicts we are not fighting desperately for survival against an invading force of similar strength. War with nations with widely issued body armour will be very serious indeed, quite possibly for our existence as we know it. We would be wise to prepare for armoured threats. Russian 9mm AP and European 9mm AP will penetrate Level 2 and give 3 a hard time if I recall correctly. 5.7 & 4.6 is very effective, but only really when used in fully automatic weapons. I think the tendency towards .40 & .45 is due to a misplaced lack of confidence in 9mm along with short sightedness re: our next serious enemy.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top