Firing Empty Cases - Experiences and Questions

[cuervo]

This is sort of a reloading question since it deals with components, so this seemed the best place for it. Mods feel free to move where better...

I had some ammo go bad on me, and I wanted to demolish my remaining stock of it. So, I pulled the bullets, dumped and burned the powder, and decided to shoot the empty cases so that I could recycle the brass. I did not want to press the primers out since they were sealed.

Below are some of the things I noticed, and I have questions regarding if I had a normal experience shooting a primed-only case or if it was just a by-product of the bad ammo.

1. Some of the cases did not want to extract after shooting. I had to tap the stock on the bench, or worst case, give a very light tap with a cleaning rod. Nothing really stuck, but stuck enough that my extractor couldn't pull them out.

2. Some of the primers backed out a little from the case. There may have been a slight correlation between a backed-out primer not extracting, but plenty of them extracted with no problem.

3. Doing this has proven to be very dirty. I've been through about 30 patches and decided to take a break before I continue working on getting the barrel clean. Are primers normally very dirty but the residue gets burned with the powder, or just these primers?

As a background, this was Yugo (supposedly via Venezuela) 88 .30-06. The last I shot it was maybe last year at a Garand match, and had no problems. I shot it a few weeks ago, and had a case split on me and crack my stock. I decided to destroy my remaining ammo rather than risk any more problems, and discovered quite a few cases that had turned blue-green once I pulled the bullet and dumped the powder. In the course of shooting the cases today, I could tell a few of the primers were weaker compared to most of the others.

So, as a warning, if you have any Yugo 88 .30-06 with red sealant on the bullet and primer pocket, take a close look at it before firing.

 

[troy fairweather]

When a normal round fires the primer will move back to the bolt face then the pressure will wear the primer back in. So when you shoot a primed case of even light load the primer does not go back in. How much sticking out depends on your headspace.

 

[Blue68f100]

When you fire a completed round the primer backs out and is re-seated due to pressure driving the case back. When you fire a primer only, the primer backs out so it will cause a problem. Better to deprime if you can.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

As far as cases sticking so you couldn't eject them, primers firing with no bullet present should have had nothing to do with that. Maybe corrosion on outside of case adding to dia.
Maybe the more modern cases don't exactly fit the chamber in your 88.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewehr_1888

Read this from Service history down to the end. There were 4 different variants of the ammo for these rifles from inception to demise.

What a quagmire!

 

[cuervo]

Tiger, just a quick clarification--the ammo is Yugo 88.

The rifle I used to fire the empty cases was a Savage 110. I have not had any of my hunting ammo have the primers back out, but I could look for it the next time I shoot it.

 

[fxvr5]

T

3. Doing this has proven to be very dirty. I've been through about 30 patches and decided to take a break before I continue working on getting the barrel clean. Are primers normally very dirty but the residue gets burned with the powder, or just these primers?

Firing primers alone can be filthy. Different brands probably produce different amounts of crud.

 

[Shooterbob]

No bullet not enough pressure to reseat primer

 

[murf]

i'll bet those are corrosive primers. i suggest you clean your barrel and action as soon as possible. corrosive primers will rust a barrel within 24 hours if not cleaned.

luck,

murf

 

[edwardware]

To agree and expand on what @troy fairweather and @Blue68f100 already said:

Primers always back out against the breech face on detonation; in most cases (typical headspace clearances) the primer will extend a couple thousandths. This gap is at the breech face instead of the shoulder because the firing pin pushed the cartridge forward.

As the pressure rises, the case either stretches or slides (typical of straightwall pistol) back over the primer, leaving it seated flush. If there's no or very low pressure, it doesn't.

Primers do this because they build pressure of detonation in the pocket that has to flow through the nozzle of the flash hole. With pistol primers you can reduce, but not completely eliminate, this by drilling the flash holes out so there's just enough rim left to seat tree anvil on. This is common in brass for low pressure/trick/gallery loads.

Interestingly there have been several locked-breech arms designs prior to reliable gas systems that were actuated by the primer pushing a small piston in the bolt face backwards to store the cycle energy. George Chinn covers several.

 

[cuervo]

Murf, supposedly the Yugo ammo was noncorrosive. I did set a record tonight on the number of patches used to clean one barrel, plus I had to bring in a pitch-hitter for my Hoppes #9.

Edward, Garands started out primer-actuated as well. Forgotten Weapons has a video of one of his test rifles.

One follow-up question, should it ever come up again, but how difficult/dangerous would it have been to press the live primers out? I've read that it can be done safely if done slowly and perhaps with a cloth wrapped around the press. These weren't crimped, but I assume the sealant would provide an extra layer of resistance to pressing them out.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

I had to do this with some 223 loads. When trying to deprime I found many of the primers refused to budge. So I stopped trying to deprime and started loading the primed cases for practice rounds. No problems and I was able to decap the fired primers. Primers have a far longer service life than the powder.

 

[WestKentucky]

Pressure helps to stabilize and normalize burn. Pressure is actually one of the more important things when it comes to state of matter, and the burning of fuel is the vehicle of change between energy states. Remember the 2 things noted about boiling, freezing, combustion and auto ignition points is that they are listed at STP which is standard temperature and pressure. Pressure is generally accepted to be 1 atmosphere, or whatever conversion you want to use. So powder or not, pressure is an important consideration on how efficient combustion is. Highly efficient combustion is very good because it is clean when all of the fuel converts to carbon and whatever it decomposes to in the chemical reaction of combustion. Inefficient combustion is when things have difficulty combusting due to contaminants (oil usually), natural degradation prior to ignition (old ammo), or a lack of pressure. You had a lot of stuff going on with those cases, but you really jacked with it’s ability to build pressure.

As for hard bolt lift or sticking, I absolutely see that. Think about the primer pocket for a second. Big hole drilled deep and filled with an explosive component with a much smaller hole drilled into the powder chamber portion of the case. Whether weak, normal, or hot as degradation may do, you still are building some pressure inside of that tiny cavity. The brass primer cup is thin and soft by design to allow it to function, so it absolutely will slip, twist, and contort under pressure in whatever way it can. Others have covered the fact that the firing case will ram rearward under recoil to reseat the primer, but it’s actually a bit more than that because the primer cup actually flows where the pin strike is often back into the firing pin channel and that also is rammed smooth and flat at the same time that the case is driven back onto the primer. So material flowed into your bolt face and/or into your firing pin channel will make for hard bolt lift as you are bending or overcoming friction of that interfering area as you try to turn the bolt. This may actually try to chamber the cartridge a bit deeper when the primer fires pushing the case forward, so any crud up near your case-mouth would cause issues... and firing primed cases is going to deposit crud right there pretty quickly and substantially.

I know that a lot of the things said as explanation can come across as people like me trying to sound smart, that’s not intended so please don’t take it that way. I have learned this the hard way a few times and being of scientific mind I tried very hard to understand exactly what I was seeing, and it’s the education of experience. You are lucky that you learned on a bolt action rifle that can fairly easily eject even one of the worst cases. I learned my lesson the first time on a revolver that got loaded with 6 primed cases to scare some kids at a Halloween party. Then I learned it again with a NEF break action 223. Both of those required brute force to open the action, and although neither cases damage, I could have easily damaged the guns beating on them with the no-bounce hammer trying to get them open.

 

[tcoz]

One follow-up question, should it ever come up again, but how difficult/dangerous would it have been to press the live primers out? I've read that it can be done safely if done slowly and perhaps with a cloth wrapped around the press. These weren't crimped, but I assume the sealant would provide an extra layer of resistance to pressing them out.

I’ve removed many live primers over the years but you should go very slowly and with a light touch. If you come up against one that seems not to come out with the normal amount if force, set it aside and shoot it later.

 

[Random 8]

I would discontinue this experiment as your brass is likely trashed. You experienced a damaging split case during live fire, and have noted numerous cases showing severe interior decay. Popping or decapping the primers to salvage the brass is IMHO a fool's errand, you are likely to get the same failures with new powder. Pull down, drop in a bucket of water for a few days, then off to the recycle box would be my procedure. Known quality '06 brass of LC or HXP stamps is relatively common and inexpensive.

I have fired primer only loads for dog training with an old shotgun. They do leave excessive residue. I agree, that the burning of powder does take much of this residue out the barrel with the other combustion materials. I found automotive starting fluid to work well for cleaning the residue out. Also a good, inexpensive solvent for all things carbon (use outdoors only).

 

[tightgroup tiger]

http://ammo.freetzi.com/yugoslav.htm

If this is the ammo, it is apparently non corrosive if it is boxer primed.

 

[edwardware]

One follow-up question, should it ever come up again, but how difficult/dangerous would it have been to press the live primers out?

Primers are a brilliant bit of engineering. They need a very energetic strike to detonate, and are very safe if treated with less energy than that. I suggest eyes and ears, but they can be pressed out with almost perfect reliability.

As an experiment, I suggest suiting up and abusing a primer as might occur in reloading (seating hard, seating sideways, seating a large in a small pocket, etc); I've never been able to set one off short of hitting it with a hammer. They are remarkably reliable.

Also, if you type an @ before a username, it'll create a tag to that user. . . @cuervo

 

[murf]

very safe if treated with less energy than that.

unless you put them in a glass jar.

couldn't help myself,

murf

 

[luzyfuerza]

I would discontinue this experiment as your brass is likely trashed.

I absolutely agree. If you see interior corrosion, your brass is trash.

@Slamfire has provided many detailed discussions why this is the case. Here's an example:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/bad-powder-at-such-young-age.840053/#post-10898914

 

[Highland Lofts]

I have knocked out a lot of live primers with no issues, i have also taken ammo apart, tossed the powder. Put new powder and used the same bullet.

I use to buy reloads to plink with until I got a double charged 357.
After that I don't trust any bodies reloads.
I recently picked up 200 rounds of 222 Remington and a set of 222 Remington dies from a giy on a local gun forum.wo inherited his father inlaws guns and reloading stuff and these bullets were part of the deal.
The old guy was 87 when he reloaded these cartridges.
The guy I got these from was shooting up the 45acp ammo and got a double charge.
He took the rest of the 45acp apart and found several double charges.
So I will take these apart and reload with new powder.
I bought some guns off a guy and got four ammo cans full of 223 ammo, again these need to be reloaded after they are taken apart.
I bought a Remington 700 in 338RUM, it came with 250 rounds of reloaded ammo, i don't trust it one bit. My son is taking the rifle so I will be knocking them apart and give him the conponets to reload on his own.

I had some reloaded 223 ammo that when shot would blow the primers out of the cases and made opening the bolt really hard.


If ever in doubt knock them apart and start over.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

unless you put them in a glass jar.

RC Model would be proud.

 

[alfsauve]

And you definitely don't want to fire empty brass in a revolver. The cylinder will bind on you. Learned the hard way, of course.

 

[mdi]

From what I can remember (and my memory is waning as I approach 80) primers contain more than just a combustible compound. IIRC some were (are?) produced with an added element to "fire" into the powder for better ignition, and ground glass was one used, thus a lot of debris in the barrel when the primers are fired without a powder charge...