First AR for defense. Needing advice.

[Persuader12]

Never owned any rifle except my Ruger 10/22, and I've been all over the different boards and all around the internet reading different opinions about what is a good first AR. Most people say to get something that's quality, which I agree with as far as reliability, but not necessarily when it comes to extras.

What I'm looking for is a basic AR for home defense in case TSHTF. I wouldn't use it for HD now because it's not as "court friendly" as a shotgun. But if/when the country collapses along with all law and order and we're all on our own (am I pessimistic or what?) then it's the time when most people agree that an AR is the better thing to have on hand than a shotgun.

I've seen the DPMS brand at Walmart for the lowest prices, but have heard from many, but not all, that I should stay away from DPMS. I've also heard of police departments adopting them and regretting it. But do these opinions hold true even of the higher priced DPMS guns, or just the bargain ones? I don't know. DPMS and Olympic Arms are ones I've been told to avoid.

So how about it? I'm looking for something basic without bells and whistles, but still has what I need: sights, forward assist, 5.56 chambering. But while being basic, is still something that is reliable, won't have parts breakage, while not costing over $800.

 

[C-grunt]

Get a milspec rifle. Walmart sells Colts for just over 1k.

My department bought Bushmasters a few years ago when Colts were hard to find. They have been plagued with problems that normal people don't see because they don't run them as hard as we do. Many had tight chambers and were popping primers when shooting 5.56. They have since traded those Bushmasters to a distributer on a two for one deal on new Colts. Moral of the story, buy the correct equipment first.

The lower end companies cut corners to make the gun cheaper. Don't cut corners on a defensive weapon.

 

[Persuader12]

Ah yes! Bushmaster! That was the other company I was thinking of when I was trying to come up with my list of ones to avoid.

So you think that for a defensive AR, I shouldn't spend less than $1000?

 

[Averageman]

That 6920 is a good place to start.
You can spend a lot more and have a bit better rifle, but I think the 6920 is the way I would do it if I were to start over.
I have a Frankengun AR with a Spikes lower and a BCM upper that I am quiet happy with and a D.D. M4V7 I recently purchased that is also a nice gun but fills a different role than the carbine.
The 6920 with optics should fill your needs nicely.

 

[Al Thompson]

Smith and Wesson is good to go, according to one of the top AR trainers. It was not when they started, but S&W has improved. If you have someone handy who can do a quick QC, Palmetto State Armory uses superb parts, though QC can be a bit spotty.

 

[Outlaw Man]

My two ARs are a Bushmaster and a DPMS. That said, the upper and lower receivers are about all that's left of the factory parts.

Other than a few exceptions (and those are generally DIY builds), you're not going to find much difference across the board in the $800 range. I'd lean toward either saving up just a couple hundred more or buying something That minimizes the changes you need to make, if you're really looking for dead-nuts reliable.

 

[lpsharp88]

So you think that for a defensive AR, I shouldn't spend less than $1000?

I spent under $600 on my Smith and Wesson M&P 15 Sport and would without a doubt use it as a defensive weapon, it has been 100% reliable over nearly 2000 rounds thru it. It is pretty darn accurate as well.

 

[Sauer Grapes]

These are available for right at 700 bucks. All you need to add is a rear sight. Money well spent IMHO.

Palmetto State Armory M4 16" Rifle (5.56 NATO/223)

This Palmetto State Armory carbine comes with a 6 position stock, 16" Barrel, Carbine Length Handguard, and Fixed Front Sight (rear flip-up sight not included). The barrel is constructed of CMV 4150 steel and is chrome-lined and has a 1:7 RH twist. The 7075-T6 Aluminum M4 flat-top Mil-Spec upper is hard coat anodized black and equipped with extended feed ramps, engraved T-marks, standard M4 handguard with double heat shield, forged F-marked front sight post, and A2 flash hider. The 7075-T6 aluminum forged lower is also black hard coat anodized and features standard PSA fire control group w/ combat trigger, A2-style grip, and aluminum trigger guard. The Mil-spec carpenter 158 steel constructed bolt is chrome-lined and features parkerized finish.

Palmetto State Armory M4 Carbine Rifle Features:

CMV 4150 steel constructed & chrome-lined barrel features M4 profile & black matte phosphate finish
Dust cover
Brass deflector
Forward assist
Carbine-length gas port
1:7 RH twist
7075-T6 aluminum M4 flat-top Mil-Spec upper is hard coat anodized black & equipped w/extended feed ramps, engraved T-marks,
M4 handguard w/double heat shield
Forged F-marked front sight post
A2 flash hider
7075-T6 aluminum forged lower is black hardcoat anodized
PSA fire control group w/combat trigger A2-style grip & aluminum trigger guard
Mil-Spec carpenter 158 steel constructed bolt (Shot-peened, MPI, HPT) is chrome-lined & features parkerized finish
Gas key secured w/(8) fasteners & staked per Mil-Spec
Includes sling swivels & (1) 30-round D&H PSA magazine
Mfg item number is PSAM4-CLF, According to palmetto and the paperwork we received from our distributor all palmetto rifles that have the mfg item number ending in F means they have a FN made barrel, susposedly FNH is making the barrels and marking them with palmettos marking if they put a F at the end of the item number, but we have no proof other than our invoice from our distributor shows they have a FN made barrel, but the top of the barrels is marked Palmetto so who knows

 

[Dr.Rob]

If you can't afford a Colt, maybe shopping for a Smith and Wesson is the way to go. IF you get a lemon the company has a great track record of customer service.

 

[mac66]

I own or built 7 or 8 AR rifles. Some are just franken rifles made from parts kits, some are high end competition rifles. To be honest there really isn't much difference between them. You don't need a race car to drive to work and you don't need a tier one rifle for home defense. In fact my go to rifle is an old cobbled together beater from the 90s.

My recommendation is to get on Palmetto Arms mailing list. They have great deals on good stuff on a regular basis.

 

[jmr40]

If you can afford $1000 for a Colt then go for it. I haven't really kept up with AR prices since the panic ended but pre panic there were lots of $700-$800 rifles out there that would be just fine. You can make an argument the $700 guns are just as good, or better than the Colts costing much more. Even the $600 DPMS rifles will work just fine for most people.

Several have suggested S&W. No argument from me, but I have also had good luck with Stag, PSA, and Rock river in the $700 range. I paid $600 OTD for a DPMS that I had for a while. It was not up to the level of the others and I sold it after buying another better rifle. If I were going into an extended fire fight, or had to carry it in harsh battlefield conditions I'd want a high end AR.

But most AR users punch paper occasionally at the range. If they ever really use it for defensive purposes most would never have to empty even one mag. The $600-$800 guns will work for that. I've always felt that if the day ever came where I really, really needed a high end AR there would be plenty laying around to pick up. The one I have would last long enough to acquire a better one. If you are getting into serious competition shooting and going through 5000 rounds a year you do need a better gun. That is my philosophy anyway.

 

[dvdcrr]

Id get a 16" carbine with milspec m16 bcg, chrome lined, and proper m4 feedramps. Good quality mags. Go to the range and ensure function.

 

[C-grunt]

Ah yes! Bushmaster! That was the other company I was thinking of when I was trying to come up with my list of ones to avoid.

So you think that for a defensive AR, I shouldn't spend less than $1000?

It isnt about cost. Get a properly built rifle. They usually cost right around 1k. PSA makes a milspec rifle that sometimes be bad for less than 1k.

Colt is always a good choice for a hard use rifle that is to be used as a weapon.

 

[ugaarguy]

The most critical things to look for are properly cut chambers, HPT/MPI bolts, and properly staked carrier keys. Bushmaster, DPMS, and Olympic consistently have tight chambers, and they're inconsistent on carrier key staking. Rock River is usually good about cutting chambers properly, but they're also hit or miss on carrier key staking. RRA also puts a two stage match trigger in all their lowers. That trigger is fine for shooting matches, but their durability has been less than stellar on hard use defensive rifles. RRA also uses loctite on their receiver extension (AKA buffer tube) castle nuts, rather than doing the right thing and staking them.

You can get a good rifle on the cheap with a S&W M&P-15 Sport. Just beware that they used handguards without heat shields, so add another $20-$30 to the price to get a set of proper handguards. Other than that, the Sport is good to go out of the box.

The Colt 6920 is still one of the best no frills defensive AR-15s on the market, and the prices have dropped back to completely reasonable levels.

I still think the best AR-15 buy is the S&W M&P-15T with it's great features for at or just under $1k.

 

[labhound]

Bought my one and only AR back in December, a S&W M&P 15 Sport. Great gun and under $700.

 

[DNS]

Can't go wrong with a Colt or Smith and Wesson.

The S/Ws are great and my Sport has been 100% reliable. Its been fun to see how fast the S/W ARs are moving to the head of the pack.

 

[Buzznrose]

Colt if you can afford it, S&W, PSA or Stag if you can't afford the Colt. Stag actually makes many parts for most of the other AR companies, including Colt

 

[WTBguns10kOK]

I'm going to buck the trend here and suggest you "get a Smith and Wesson".

 

[USAF_Vet]

I went the inexpensive route. ATI Omni poly lower with a DPMS upper. Including mags, which I bought cheap from a buddy who has a military surplus store, I'm in the rifle at about $500.

Is it in the same ball park as the Colt I was issued in Iraq? Not by a long shot. But for an occasional range plinker that can pull duty on home defense, I'm happy with the price I paid.

I can't see myself dropping $1k plus on a rifle that will spend most of its time locked up. I'm a casual shooter, I'm not sending 10,000 rounds down range a month, or even a year. My $500 franken rifle suits my needs and uses perfectly.

Buy what suits your needs as well.as your budget.

 

[ugaarguy]

Stag actually makes many parts for most of the other AR companies, including Colt

That's only partially true. Stag's parent company, CMT, does supply bolt carrier groups / components and receivers to many companies. However, those parts range anywhere from 70% forgings, to 100% receivers that just need the guts inserted into them. How a company finish machines, finishes, assembles, and tests those parts is far more important than who they get them from.

Ohh, and those problematic early S&W M&P-15 rifles? Those were the ones built with 100% machined & anodized receivers from CMT. The lowers were so far out of spec that PMags couldn't be inserted into many of them, and even aluminum GI mags were tight. That's why S&W brought their rifle manufacturing completely in house. S&W went so far as buying T/C Arms for their barrel manufacturing capability. For the past several years all M&P rifles have been built with T/C manufactured barrels, many of which are Melonite treated 1/8 twist 5R rifled.

 

[Girodin]

For a gun I would stake my life on I would go with a known, well proven manufacture that truly meets or exceeds mil spec.

In the price range you are talking about I would get a colt or a BCM and not look back. I'd tend to lean towards BCM in as much as they offer configuration I prefer. However, either one would be a good buy.


With PSA you have to read really closely what they are saying things are. Just an example, they will often say their receiver extensions (AKA buffer tubes) are mil spec diameter. That's not the same as mil spec. They are just saying what size they are. They are often 6061-T6 aluminum with anodized finish and not 7075-T6 aluminum with milspec manganese phosphate finish. Now that might not matter for many end users. However, it is not "just the same" or a mil spec gun and is part of what accounts for price differences.

In my personal experience I have seen 3 PSA BCGs, one staked properly and two that really were not.

 

[gotigers]

another vote for get a good name; Colt, Bushmaster, Windham weaponry (old Bushmaster), PSA, S&W and Stag. all of those companies make M4geries and will be more than adequate. Others like DPMS, Delton, doublestar, etc, will be ok, just make sure it is 5.56 and as much milspec as you can afford.

 

[redneck2]

I've also considered getting a straight forward AR. I've got three... a SOCOM, a custom wildcat, and an original Bushmaster (but it's a varminter). Where does Stag fall in the range of quality?? Equivalent to the S&W and Colt, better, worse??

I ask, because I've seen them locally for $700+/-. Guys at the LGS are gun users, not just salesmen. They are high on the Stag.

thx

 

[ugaarguy]

Where does Stag fall in the range of quality?? Equivalent to the S&W and Colt, better, worse??

With the "Plus Package" they're theoretically equivalent to a Colt of like configuration. In practice Stag has had some bad periods, but they seem to have gotten things fixed. Just look the rifle over carefully to make sure the carrier key staking is done properly, and make sure the castle nut on the receiver extension (buffer tube) is staked into place. The plus package adds $100 to the price of the rifle, but I think it's a good idea.

From Stag's website:

Q: What benefits does the plus package offer?
A: The plus package upgrades the standard buffer to a heavy buffer, the barrel to 1/7 twist, 4150 steel and the semi auto bolt carrier to an M16 bolt carrier. The bolt and barrel are HP/MP tested and an extra magazine is included.

As far as S&W goes they deviate from Mil Spec with their barrels that are 1/8 twist, 5R rifled, and have Melonite treatment rather than hard chrome lining. It's a change that doesn't affect reliability though. S&W also has great assembly after bringing everything in house following the problems they experienced on their earliest rifles that were built with many outsourced parts.

 

[Fishbed77]

If you can't afford a Colt, maybe shopping for a Smith and Wesson is the way to go

The thing is, most S&W ARs I see for sale (with the exception of the Sport) cost as much or more than Colt 6920s. Makes is pretty tough to consider anything other than a Wal-Mart Colt.