First AR for defense. Needing advice.

[Persuader12]

You were no doubt looking at the "SOCOM" version with the KAC railed forearm. The standard LE6920 can be found for $1097 in just about every Wal-Mart I walk into.

It's possible. They had it in the case behind the counter and I had to ask the salesperson after he finished with other customers what the make and model was of the rifle with the $1497 price tag. That's when he told me, "Colt LE6920". I didn't know there were different versions of it.

 

[YZ]

Persuader12
There are too many quality ARs to count. The Anderson (made by a small company in KY) gets a special metal treatment that reduces friction in the moving parts. It does not need any grease. Runs clean and so far totally reliable, dry as it is, gtg any moment.

Your caution about an evil looking black rifle is rational. How much it really matters, I have no court stats to be sure.

 

[WinThePennant]

I keep thinking about giving Anderson a shot because of their RF85 coating.

To the OP: For an HD AR, it's hard to beat the S&W M&P Sport. Great shooter at a great price. If not that, then go with a PSA. They use FN barrels, and they are great. They have an exceptional build kit for around $499 (sans the stripped lower).

 

[YZ]

Oh forgot. What is a tactical rifle you ask Girodin. It is a select fire or semiautomatic center fire rifle originally designed to kill humans. As opposed to a hunting rifle (kills innocent animals), or a target rifle (kills time and money). For more info refer to mayor Bloomberg or Ted Nugent, your choice.

 

[rodinal220]

Colt 6920.

 

[redstategunnut]

I'm going to answer the question posed in post #1.

Go to Wal-Mart or your LGS and buy the Colt 6920, currently in the $1050 range.

Buy ten magazines and a couple of cases of ammo.

Then invest in quality training.

/thread

 

[gotigers]

redstategunnut:

I'm going to answer the question posed in post #1.

Go to Wal-Mart or your LGS and buy the Colt 6920, currently in the $1050 range.

Buy ten magazines and a couple of cases of ammo.

Then invest in quality training.

that about sums it up.

 

[Persuader12]

I'm going to answer the question posed in post #1.

Go to Wal-Mart or your LGS and buy the Colt 6920, currently in the $1050 range.

Buy ten magazines and a couple of cases of ammo.

Then invest in quality training.

As I mentioned in post #51, I just went there and looked at that model and it is currently $1497 at my Walmart. I was hoping for something that didn't cost so much, but would still be reliable. I don't need anything fancy, so if I have to pay nearly $1500 to go the AR route, then I'll stick with my Mossberg Persuader (my username sake) which cost me $250, and my backup Remington 870 which cost me $300.

At the above mentioned prices, I'm starting to wonder why people get an AR when it's much more cost effective to just get something--ANYthing else. Yeah, I know they're the most popular rifle out there right now and that's why I've been looking at it so much and researching it. But I'm just not seeing the cost effectiveness no matter how I look at it.

 

[YZ]

Yep. You are plenty secure with your namesake. My hair is still smoking from being flamed by web experts for saying that.

 

[Al Thompson]

why people get an AR when it's much more cost effective to just get something else

Got to look at the rest of the equation.

Minimal training, it's something your 12 year old can shoot with ease or your wife. Light recoil allows for quick follow up shots and reloading is simple as well. Plethora of accessories allows you to precisely tailor the AR to your needs. Correct ammo selection minimizes over penetration while not having to give up effectiveness (RE: birdshot vrs. buckshot).

Good from 3 feet to 300 yards.

 

[Persuader12]

Yep. You are plenty secure with your namesake. My hair is still smoking from being flamed by web experts for saying that.

I know. Sometimes we have to go against the crowd. There was a time when the shotgun was the thing to have. The police had them in the cars and every home had one. Now it's the AR15. The police cars have them and now they're the most popular rifle with civilians (thanks Obama!). Not to mention the military. All this caused me to think I should have one too so as not to be outgunned by everyone else if this country reaches its inevitable end if things continue down the current road.

But for goodness sake! Looking into which AR brand/style to get for an amount of money I'm willing to spend has been so frustrating that I'm just ready to give up and stick with what I know and feel comfortable with.

 

[Al Thompson]

so as not to be outgunned

Folks with some training, a calm cool attitude and a .30-30 are way ahead of some fool even with an AR. Or to use an older phrase, it ain't the arrow, it's the Indian.

 

[ugaarguy]

Oh forgot. What is a tactical rifle you ask Girodin. It is a select fire or semiautomatic center fire rifle originally designed to kill humans. As opposed to a hunting rifle (kills innocent animals), or a target rifle (kills time and money). For more info refer to mayor Bloomberg or Ted Nugent, your choice.

I'm sorry but even the earliest firearms were themselves originally designed to kill other humans in battle.

The bolt action and lever action rifles we now consider classic hunting rifles were both originally designed as combat rifles. The lever action was designed to provide a firepower advantage to Union infantry in The War Between The States, or the American Civil War as some prefer to call it.

Almost all modern bolt action rifles trace their heritage to the Mauser rifles of 1896 and 1898. Those rifles armed both sides of combatants in both World Wars.

What you call a target rifle is nothing more than a bolt action rifle or semi automatic rifle with precision aperture sights or a telescopic sight. Mayor Bloomberg, the Brady Campaign, and other anti gun groups would call them sniper rifles.

You also seem to have a love affair with pump shotguns. Those are totally banned in Australia as "Riot Guns". An 18" bbl pump shotgun with buckshot or slugs is as equally well suited to harvesting large game as it is for defending against fellow men who desire to do you harm. The same shotgun with a change in ammo becomes a worthy dove gun. With another ammo change and a choke tube change it becomes a turkey gun.

The distinction of so called sporting firearms and so called non-sporting firearms is a fallacy. There is no difference.

Yep. You are plenty secure with your namesake. My hair is still smoking from being flamed by web experts for saying that.

NO!
No one has said a pump shotgun is a bad choice for HD. Several of us have given factual reasons that a 5.56 NATO or similar intermediate cartridge rifle or carbine is a better choice than a shotgun for HD.

No one has flamed either. We have simply countered your ignorant assertion that an AR-15 or similar rifle is not a good choice for home defense. We have presented you with empirical evidence to support our view, and you refuse to accept it. We are not "web experts" either. Most if not all of us are either combat veterans or civilian shooters who have taken time out of our personal lives to learn what the best defensive firearms are and train with them. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

 

[Fiv3r]

I've been nothing but pleased with my Stag. It's a barebones model that I haven't purchased a thing for short of a magazines whenever I find a good deal.

I'm not worried about how PC it is to shoot an intruder with one. I live in an area where common sense still abounds from time to time. The AR fits my needs both as a HD weapon and offers a good bit of peace of mind as a nice go-to should we ever find ourselves living in a time when having a high capacity defense rifle a VERY good idea.

 

[ugaarguy]

But for goodness sake! Looking into which AR brand/style to get for an amount of money I'm willing to spend has been so frustrating that I'm just ready to give up and stick with what I know and feel comfortable with.

Take a break from looking at AR-15s and revisit them in the future. You're far from being outgunned with the pump shotgun you're already well practiced in using.

 

[taliv]

yep. net is, every day people who aren't "shooters" but who have a gun defend themselves. there are millions of "defensive gun uses". if you are going to be in the group of people who buy a gun and maybe shoot it once just to see what it feels like, sure, buy a shotgun. it's cheap and effective. it's not optimal, but it will do the job.

if you want to spend thousands of rounds training to improve your odds, or if you just want to take up shooting as a hobby, the AR is a much better choice. it's far more versatile, ergonomic and easy on the shoulder. and as stated above, more effective with less liability of overpenetration

 

[Buzznrose]

That's only partially true. Stag's parent company, CMT, does supply bolt carrier groups / components and receivers to many companies. However, those parts range anywhere from 70% forgings, to 100% receivers that just need the guts inserted into them. How a company finish machines, finishes, assembles, and tests those parts is far more important than who they get them from.

Ohh, and those problematic early S&W M&P-15 rifles? Those were the ones built with 100% machined & anodized receivers from CMT. The lowers were so far out of spec that PMags couldn't be inserted into many of them, and even aluminum GI mags were tight. That's why S&W brought their rifle manufacturing completely in house. S&W went so far as buying T/C Arms for their barrel manufacturing capability. For the past several years all M&P rifles have been built with T/C manufactured barrels, many of which are Melonite treated 1/8 twist 5R rifled.

Did not know that. Thanks for the intel...I'll check it out.

I do know several folks who bought inexpensive Stags and they run fine, or I'd not have recommended them.

Personally, I run a Daniels Defense, but even on sale, they are $1500, so for the OPs budget, too high.

Another option since the OP has a 10-22 might be a Ruger Mini-14...

 

[Bobson]

Colt 6920.

Does Colt still offer the "base" 6920 without Magpul stuff? I know Magpul makes quality products, but I just don't like their pistol grip, stock, or handguard. I haven't been able to find to find a Colt 6920 without Magpul furniture on it in close to a year.

 

[BLB68]

Does Colt still offer the "base" 6920 without Magpul stuff? I know Magpul makes quality products, but I just don't like their pistol grip, stock, or handguard. I haven't been able to find to find a Colt 6920 without Magpul furniture on it in close to a year.

They still list the base model on their website, along with the two Magpul versions (black and brown) and the SOCOM model.

 

[hso]

YZ and anyone else wondering about how a shotgun actually performs in a home at HD range,

The pattern of 00 buckshot is about the size of your hand at the extreme residential room range (~30 ft.). At 30-60 ft. the pattern has opened up to 15-20 inches. Not too many rooms 60 ft. across, but you might have a hallway to deal with. With those spreads you actually have to aim a HD shotgun if you want to ensure you make effective hits. Followup with a 20 or 12 gauge shotgun is more challenging than a firearm like the AR simply due to the differences in recoil. Gotta aim both to be useful, but followups are more difficult with the shotgun than the AR and the ergonomics on a shotgun are slightly behind the AR.

Overpenetration with buckshot vs. .223 is well illustrated by taking a look at the Box O' Truth website or you can do your own tests like friends and I did one day. We'd been having the pistol vs. shotgun vs. rifle debate and decided once and for all to "put up" so some of us would "shut up". We put together some simulated interior and exterior walls and shot everything from .22lr to .223 to 7.62 AK to .308 and 9mm to .40 and .45acp. We shot 20 and 12 gauge 00 buckshot at the walls (along with slugs). We were frankly shocked at how few "walls" the 55gr .223 penetrated compared to the pistols and both shotguns. One of the other guys and I had been vocally in the pro shotgun group and we got to be in the "shut up" group when we were all done on the question of penetration of standard building structures. We held out on the wounding potential, but no one was willing to perform any real tests on that right then right there.

So, real experiments conducted by well known others (BO'T) and even my humble group of shooting buddies can lay the penetration myths to rest.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I guess I've just seen enough cases where a prosecutor will use emotions to sway a jury into believing whatever he wants them to. I think it would be a prosecutor's dream to have someone defend their actions of killing someone while an evil looking AR, that looks just like the one used by people who have walked into schools and movie theaters and murdered people, sits on the table in front of the jury. I know it shouldn't matter, but image seems to mean everything to some people. Shoot someone with a revolver or single barrel shotgun, or something made for other purposes, such as a 28" barrel shotgun, or maybe a deer rifle, and the image is of someone who just used what they already had and defended themselves with it. OTOH, if you use something made for combat, and you can easily be painted as someone who was just looking for the opportunity to use that gun for it's intended purpose.

Again, show me the actual cases. I'm betting that when you actually read the cases and see WHAT these people were convicted of and WHY that it's not something like "homeowner had a big-bad-scary-looking-gun and therefore obviously killed the home intruder as an act of premeditated murder".

When you actually read these cases you will very likely find SERIOUS issues with the circumstances behind what happened and the letter of the law. THESE are the things to worry about. If the "defendent" was wrong in his judgment, reasoning, and actions with respect to using deadly force, then it doesn't matter WHAT weapon he used.


If one wishes to use an AR-15, or similar rifle, for home defense, then more power to him/her.

 

[C-grunt]

As I mentioned in post #51, I just went there and looked at that model and it is currently $1497 at my Walmart. I was hoping for something that didn't cost so much, but would still be reliable. I don't need anything fancy, so if I have to pay nearly $1500 to go the AR route, then I'll stick with my Mossberg Persuader (my username sake) which cost me $250, and my backup Remington 870 which cost me $300.

At the above mentioned prices, I'm starting to wonder why people get an AR when it's much more cost effective to just get something--ANYthing else. Yeah, I know they're the most popular rifle out there right now and that's why I've been looking at it so much and researching it. But I'm just not seeing the cost effectiveness no matter how I look at it.

Like was stated before the model you looked at was the SOCOM model. The local Walmart by my house had a 6920, the base model/non Magpul, for under 1100 bucks. I cant remember if it was 1049 or 1099 to be exact.

Are good ARs more expensive than a good pump gun? Yes. But you have a much more versatile weapon when it comes to defense.

AR pros over a shotgun:

less recoil
penetrates body armor
magazine capacity
follow up shots
range
accuracy
ergonomics
reloads faster

Shotguns pros over an AR:

cheaper
better double duty defense/hunting

SWAT teams all over America aren't using the AR for entry teams because "it cool". They use them because they are REALLY good at close quarters combat.

Police departments are dropping the shotgun in favor of the AR because officers have a much higher accuracy score with the light recoiling rifle than they do with the shotguns. Further more 1 .223 round is easier to account for in a shooting than 9-12 buckshot pellets flying down range. In furtherance of that a miss with the lightweight .223 has less penetration through structures than buckshot pellets and slugs.

 

[redstategunnut]

I would add to the "pros" for a shotgun superior terminal ballistics vs. mammals in CQB ranges compared to the 5.56 x 45, and when using slugs superior intermediate barrier penetration (think windshield).

 

[ugaarguy]

I would add to the "pros" for a shotgun superior terminal ballistics vs. mammals in CQB ranges compared to the 5.56 x 45, and when using slugs superior intermediate barrier penetration (think windshield).

I respectfully disagree. I've seen the results of a polymer tip / ballistic tip bullet .223 commercial hunting load out of an AR-15 carbine on a nearly 200 lb white tail buck. The gentleman who harvested the deer placed the shot just behind the shoulder, squarely in the rib cage. The buck walked a very short distance, and collapsed as it expired. There was a massive blood trail originating at the entry wound. The gentleman's father described the internal damage as "turned the heart and lungs into strawberry soup" from the ballistic tip bullet's violent fragmentation. There was no exit wound.

Switching to a bonded core copper jacketed soft point or a solid copper JHP bullet of 55 grains or heavier in .223 Rem or 5.56 NATO cartridges results in excellent penetration on automotive safety glass. ATK (parent company of Speer and Federal Cartridge Company) and other manufacturers have published these results across various media.

 

[YZ]

hso - A 45ACP HP out of a conventional handgun penetrated the same wall, at the same range, better than a .223Rem HP out of an AR15. Is that correct? At what distance exactly?

We held out on the wounding potential, but no one was willing to perform any real tests on that

I've seen what it does.