Just a thought… try shooting from a rest that supports the muzzle. I believe that would give you a truer picture of what your sights are set for.
First try at 9mm = Fail
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ballman6711
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My question as well.
I recently bought a 3" Kimber 1911, essentially the same as the one I already had, with a few small differences. First time to the range with the new one, and it shot low and left at 10 yards compared to my "old" one that was doing 10's and x's.
Next time out I took a rest, and lo and behold the new one was cutting the center out of the target at 10 yards. Tried again without the rest, and low and left. The "old" one was doing 10's and x's without a rest, and nearly all x's with a rest at 10 yards. Same day, same reloads, different guns.
If your not using a rest, you need to use one to verify if it's the gun or the shooter.
My second question concerns this statement:
How did the previous bullets do on target? If they were about the same POA/POI as these, then you can probably rule out the bullets. But I will say that sometimes my guns like one bullet with a given weight and don't like another bullet of the same type and weight. Something to think about before making adjustments to your gun.
chris
Previous bullets were Hornady 124 gr XTP. Otherwise same load. Target for those was a feed sack at 15 yards.......just wanted to see if rounds would fire. They did and all were low and left of aim point. Those were all fired offhand.
If centerfire hand guns are that finicky, I've got a lot to learn about shooting one. My Ruger Mark II never behaved like that.
If centerfire hand guns are that finicky, I've got a lot to learn about shooting one. My Ruger Mark II never behaved like that.
Before you start adjusting your sights, it would be a very good idea to shoot it off a rest to see where the gun is really hitting
I had the low & left issue when I started shooting a center fire handgun ( I think it was an XD9sc). I expressed my dismay to my former BIL at the time and he just laughed at me! Shoot off a proper rest that supports the muzzle and work on an immobile grip technique. I think you may find the gun shoots to the aiming point.
After you establish what’s actually going on, then work on unrested 2-handed grip until you get the same results. A critique by an experienced shooter/instructor can save you a lot of time and ammo! Correcting the low & left issue is not all that intuitive.
Good luck with it. Sigs are fine pistols.
GeoDudeFlorida
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Everyone is different but in my case it was too much meat on the trigger. I learned to shoot so young that I didn’t realize my hands growing was causing problems with my grip. Getting less finger on the helped but the way I figured it out was by shooting left handed equal to right handed. I was taught to use both hands but got out of the habit. Going back to ambi helped a lot.
Using a rest is a good idea. So is having someone with experience watch your technique. Also might help to try wearing a shooting glove with the trigger finger trimmed to the correct length.
ballman6711
Member
Both times low and left point to the shooter, not the gun or the handloads. I would start with your shooting technique. Try different holds, different stances, etc..., or maybe contact a professional instructor for some lessons.
All guns are different. My first Kimber 3" 1911 was identical to my BIL's and was only one number off on the serial number. Shooting them back to back with the same ammo, factory or handloads, showed that they both shot different and had different preferences for ammo.
Finicky to me would be a gun that shoots FMJ fine, but doesn't like HP ammo, or doesn't like certain brands of HP ammo. I actually know a guy that has a rather limited Winchester lever rifle, and he swears it won't load Winchester ammo from the tube, but it will shoot everything else he's ever tried. FWIW he doesn't reload, all factory ammo.
Take the suggestions above, and shoot it off a rest. You may be pleasantly surprised. And keep us all updated on what you find.
chris
Will definately try again using a rest to see if that makes a difference. There is also an indoor range near me where they can watch me shoot or take a few pops themselves to see what is going on.....gun or me. I called and they also have the tools to adjust the sights if it proves they are off. So can get to bottom of it one way or the other.
BTW, if what I saw was correct, rear sight does have a 6 inside a circle on the rear sight. Has an 8 on front. Found a chart on another forum that suggested that these guns are supposed to have 8 / 8 sights, which zero at 25 yards. An 8 front 6 rear would be 4 inches low at 25 yards, and that is below the center of front sight dot, not top of front sight as I was using.
BTW, if what I saw was correct, rear sight does have a 6 inside a circle on the rear sight. Has an 8 on front. Found a chart on another forum that suggested that these guns are supposed to have 8 / 8 sights, which zero at 25 yards. An 8 front 6 rear would be 4 inches low at 25 yards, and that is below the center of front sight dot, not top of front sight as I was using.
Sigs are typically set up with a combat sight picture. Keep the 3 dots aligned while putting the middle of the front dot squarely over the center (covering) of what you are aiming at.
n2omike
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My favorite pet 9mm load that works great in everything I own is:
147 grain RMR RN FMJ
3.8 grains of HP38/W231
1.14" OAL
It works great in pistols, and is still subsonic out of a 10.5" AR9.
Tested against Berrys plated bullets, these shot 1" groups at 50 yards in the AR9, and Berrys was around 3".
147 grain RMR RN FMJ
3.8 grains of HP38/W231
1.14" OAL
It works great in pistols, and is still subsonic out of a 10.5" AR9.
Tested against Berrys plated bullets, these shot 1" groups at 50 yards in the AR9, and Berrys was around 3".
Indoor range was closed today, and generally don't like to shoot out back near neighbors, but curious enough to find out what is going on that I fired off 3 rounds anyway. This time off a soft rest supporting muzzle, front site covering dot and from 25 feet. Impact moved right a little bit, but remain low. BTW, this time using 115 grain Winchester factory range ammo. That dog's bark and bite a lot stiffer than my hand loads.
With an 8 front and 6 rear sight, this seems to be shooting downhill from aim point. The farther away I get, the lower it goes.
BTW, also found this Sig reference chart on the sights. An 8 front 6 low rear shoots low.
With an 8 front and 6 rear sight, this seems to be shooting downhill from aim point. The farther away I get, the lower it goes.
BTW, also found this Sig reference chart on the sights. An 8 front 6 low rear shoots low.
Nope.......will be later in the week when the indoor range opens. Will let those guys take it for a spin to see what they think.
These were only shot at 25 feet. I wouldn't think that is far enough away for any of that to matter. If if does, I have a lot to learn about shooting centerfire pistolas. Having said that, I could be convinced I am the cause of the left. Still think sights partly to blame for the low.
These were only shot at 25 feet. I wouldn't think that is far enough away for any of that to matter. If if does, I have a lot to learn about shooting centerfire pistolas. Having said that, I could be convinced I am the cause of the left. Still think sights partly to blame for the low.
JerkyFreak
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Shoot a group wirh the non-dominant hand. If it is still left I might be convinced the sights need adjusting.
Epilogue:
Have been viewing some Utube videos on trigger control for pistolas, and they have about convinced me the gun is not at fault. If bullets hitting low and left, most likely it's the shooter.
So to test some trigger control/pull ideas, went to a local outdoor range. Decided to shoot up all the previous test ammo that had failed before, and lo and behold, this time every one of them fired, cycled the action and ejected spent case. No hang ups at all.
Most rounds also fired over a chrony and off a rest.......and things were better. These from 15 yards........nearly 50 feet:
Still a bit low, but no longer all to the left.
And below a group from the new and improved load of 7.2 gr Acc #7, 124 gr RMR Nuke. Chrony had them at around 1080 fps, +/- 15 fps.
So I know the gun and sights are OK and would work if the shooter did his part. So with that as a load to use, can now start working on my shooting to get the offhand as good as off a fixed rest.
BTW, as an aside, a 4" circle was used on some other targets and large combat style front sight covered that circle at 50 feet. So expectations have to be tempered when what you have to work with is a crude instrument at best.
Have been viewing some Utube videos on trigger control for pistolas, and they have about convinced me the gun is not at fault. If bullets hitting low and left, most likely it's the shooter.
So to test some trigger control/pull ideas, went to a local outdoor range. Decided to shoot up all the previous test ammo that had failed before, and lo and behold, this time every one of them fired, cycled the action and ejected spent case. No hang ups at all.
Most rounds also fired over a chrony and off a rest.......and things were better. These from 15 yards........nearly 50 feet:
Still a bit low, but no longer all to the left.
And below a group from the new and improved load of 7.2 gr Acc #7, 124 gr RMR Nuke. Chrony had them at around 1080 fps, +/- 15 fps.
So I know the gun and sights are OK and would work if the shooter did his part. So with that as a load to use, can now start working on my shooting to get the offhand as good as off a fixed rest.
BTW, as an aside, a 4" circle was used on some other targets and large combat style front sight covered that circle at 50 feet. So expectations have to be tempered when what you have to work with is a crude instrument at best.
rfwobbly
Member
LiveLife gave you some great advice.
Here's how I might summarize it....
• You must run this like a science experiment to get trustworthy results. Otherwise you are simply wasting ammo and precious time. That means do everything in your power to completely eliminate all the variables. Use one bullet, one powder, one brand of brass, one OAL, and do ALL your shooting at a set distance (say 35 feet) from a fully supported position AND use a new target for each test group. And, because of the way the human eye works, that target MUST have a round black "bullseye".
• Hornady XTP are some of the best bullets on the market. However they are extremely expensive and most people will not be able to maintain a high level of shooting using them. I highly suggest you use 124gr JHP or 124gr Match Winner from Rocky Mntn Reloading (RMR). THR members get a 5% discount from RMR and shipping is free. Get really serious about your shooting, consider purchasing 2000+ bullets of one type.
• Load 8-10 cartridges at each load range, beginning at the Starting Load and working up in 0.1 or 0.2gr increments.
• May I suggest you order several hundred TQ-2 targets from National Target Co. These are 5x8" targets, small enough to save in a recipe box. They have a black bull 2.3" and are perfect for this type work. In this way I'm able to directly compare test targets from 20 years ago to my latest bullet/powder purchase.
• And start a 9mm log book. You must write down your loads and your results, because there's no way you can remember this stuff.
► The Bottom Line: The ONLY test for a load is Best Accuracy.
Most handguns come from the factory setup for defensive loads, the springing may be way too strong for Target loads. Best accuracy almost never happens at full power. Therefore, you may experience feeding or ejection issues at the point of best accuracy. This simply means you'll need to buy lighter weight springs for target shooting. One supplier for these springs is Wolff Gun Springs.
Hope this helps.
.
Here's how I might summarize it....
• You must run this like a science experiment to get trustworthy results. Otherwise you are simply wasting ammo and precious time. That means do everything in your power to completely eliminate all the variables. Use one bullet, one powder, one brand of brass, one OAL, and do ALL your shooting at a set distance (say 35 feet) from a fully supported position AND use a new target for each test group. And, because of the way the human eye works, that target MUST have a round black "bullseye".
• Hornady XTP are some of the best bullets on the market. However they are extremely expensive and most people will not be able to maintain a high level of shooting using them. I highly suggest you use 124gr JHP or 124gr Match Winner from Rocky Mntn Reloading (RMR). THR members get a 5% discount from RMR and shipping is free. Get really serious about your shooting, consider purchasing 2000+ bullets of one type.
• Load 8-10 cartridges at each load range, beginning at the Starting Load and working up in 0.1 or 0.2gr increments.
• May I suggest you order several hundred TQ-2 targets from National Target Co. These are 5x8" targets, small enough to save in a recipe box. They have a black bull 2.3" and are perfect for this type work. In this way I'm able to directly compare test targets from 20 years ago to my latest bullet/powder purchase.
• And start a 9mm log book. You must write down your loads and your results, because there's no way you can remember this stuff.
► The Bottom Line: The ONLY test for a load is Best Accuracy.
Most handguns come from the factory setup for defensive loads, the springing may be way too strong for Target loads. Best accuracy almost never happens at full power. Therefore, you may experience feeding or ejection issues at the point of best accuracy. This simply means you'll need to buy lighter weight springs for target shooting. One supplier for these springs is Wolff Gun Springs.
Hope this helps.
.
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gifbohane
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Will that OAL of 1.14 work in a CZ?
n2omike
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Not sure. Works in my Canik and AR9. Don't have a CZ.
OK, speaking of "accurate", what is an objective accuracy standard for a 9mm pistol of the type I'm shooting?
With center fire rifles, it is group size in inches at 100 yards. 1 MOA is a standard benchmark reference point.
Is there somethings similar for pistols?
I see guys posting group sizes as measures of accuracy, then find out they were shot at 10 feet. Others wax on for hours about accuracy, but never define or express it in any objective way.
I see the target Wobbly posted above is about a 2 inch group at 30 feet. The last group I showed above was a bit over 2 inches at 50 feet. I could live with that if I could shoot it offhand. But I did that off a muzzle rest. So looks to me like the gun and ammo I have are OK to start with.......now it's up to me to catch up to their potential.
With center fire rifles, it is group size in inches at 100 yards. 1 MOA is a standard benchmark reference point.
Is there somethings similar for pistols?
I see guys posting group sizes as measures of accuracy, then find out they were shot at 10 feet. Others wax on for hours about accuracy, but never define or express it in any objective way.
I see the target Wobbly posted above is about a 2 inch group at 30 feet. The last group I showed above was a bit over 2 inches at 50 feet. I could live with that if I could shoot it offhand. But I did that off a muzzle rest. So looks to me like the gun and ammo I have are OK to start with.......now it's up to me to catch up to their potential.
Way back in the 70s, the standard for a "Fighting pistol" was 4" at 50 yards from a roll-over prone position...most tuned pistols will be able to put 5 shots into 2" at that distance. Roll-over prone will produce group very comparable to shooting off a rest.
I wouldn't carry a pistol for defensive purposes that wouldn't group 5 shots into 2" at 25 yards (75 feet)
JerkyFreak
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