First try at 9mm = Fail

[1KPerDay]

Are you shooting the gun with a magazine in place? Is your extractor functioning? Is your ejector in place? Are you loading the cartridges into the chamber manually and then closing the slide, or are you chambering them from a magazine? Something is definitely hinky.

 

[LiveLife]

I may have to revisit my HP-38 load. I was getting reliable function with 4.5gr under a RMR 124gr RN loaded to an OAL of 1.145"

My example used 115 gr, not 124 gr.

 

[LiveLife]

4 or the 5 failed to eject spent brass

Where do I start troubleshooting?

• Load 1: Hornady XTP JHP 124 ... #5 = 5.5 gr ... COAL 1.060 - Slide was found partially open, spent brass hung
• Load 2: RMR 124 JHP nuke ... #5 = 5.5 gr ... COAL = 1.040 - Spent brass found in chamber
• Load 3: RMR 124 JHP nuke ... #7 = 6.3 gr ... COAL = 1.050 - Spent brass in chamber
• Load 4: RMR 124 JHP nuke ... HS-6 = 6.3 gr ... COAL 1.050 - Brass ejected, action cycled normal
• Load 5: RMR 124 JHP nuke ... Power Pistol = 5.0 gr ... COAL 1.050 - Spent brass in chamber

I would reference published load data to start troubleshooting.

Found these from Hodgdon load data with COL closer to your COL - https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center

• 9mm 124 gr HDY XTP No. 5 COL 1.060" Start 4.8 gr (905 fps) - Max 5.7 gr (1,075 fps)
• 9mm 124 gr Speer GDHP No. 5 COL 1.105" Start 5.1 gr (924 fps) - Max 6.0 gr (1,067 fps)
• 9mm 124 gr RMR JHP No. 5 COL 1.120" Start 5.5 gr (989 fps) - Max 6.1 gr (1,076 fps)
• 9mm 124 gr HDY XTP No. 7 COL 1.060" Start 6.2 gr (997 fps) - Max 7.4 gr (1,144 fps)
• 9mm 124 gr HDY XTP HS-6 COL 1.060" Start 5.6 gr (1,050 fps) - Max 6.1 gr (1,136 fps)

But something looked odd so I referenced Speer load data - https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/9mm_Luger__124_rev1.pdf

• 9mm 124 gr Speer GDHP No. 5 COL 1.120" Start 5.7 gr (963 fps) - Max 6.4 gr (1069 fps)
• 9mm 124 gr Speer GDHP No. 7 COL 1.120" Start 8.1 gr ( 1077 fps) - Max 9.0 gr (1180 fps)
• 9mm 124 gr Speer GDHP HS-6 COL 1.120" Start 6.0 gr (951 fps) - Max 6.7 gr (1059 fps)
• 9mm 124 gr Speer GDHP Power Pistol COL 1.120" Start 5.6 gr (1033 fps) - Max 6.4 gr (1157 fps)

For your shorter COLs, even if we reduced the Speer start/max charges by .3-.5 gr, we get adjusted charges of:

• No. 5 *Adjusted* Start 5.4 gr/Max 5.9 gr
• No. 7 *Adjusted* Start 7.8 gr/Max 8.5 gr
• HS-6 *Adjusted* Start 5.7 gr/Max 6.2 gr
• Power Pistol *Adjusted* Start 5.3 gr/Max 5.9 gr

So for me, cross referencing Hodgdon and adjusted Speer load data, I would test the following on the next range trip then go from there based on results.

• No. 5 - Since 5.5 gr already tested, I would test 5.6, 5.7 gr and 5.8 gr
• No. 7 - Since 6.3 gr already tested, I would test 6.7, 7.0 gr and 7.3 gr
• HS-6 - Since 6.3 gr already tested, i would test 6.2, 6.1 gr and 6.0 gr
• Power Pistol - Since 5.0 gr already tested, I would test 5.3, 5.5 and 5.7 gr

 

[Howa 9700]

Gun is new, and was taken down, cleaned and lubed before firing. Was loaded as single rounds from magazine and fired with mag in place. Advice to cycle action a bunch of times will be heeded.

As to seating depth and COAL for the RMR nukes, Western powder manual one of the few that includes the 124 gr RMR JHP in load data, with COAL for those at 1.120.......except that was apparently for the old style bullet which had a long nose. New style nuke that I have is very similar to Sierra 125 JHP......except that according to my calipers is actually 5 thousands shorter than the Sierra. Sierra has COAL for their 125 gr JHP at 1.030. Also, for first load attempts wanted to be cautious on seating too deep and risking pressure problems. But for the new style RMR 124 gr JHP nukes, need to come to some consensus on what COAL ought to be. For example, the Hornady 124 gr XTP JHP load data is everywhere and that is consistently listed as COAL of 1.060. Powder varies, but seating depth does not.

But until some of this gets sorted out, may be good to stick with published loads for known components (Like the Hornady or Sierra bullets) and load them exactly as published to see what happens.

 

[Pat Riot]

Probably not what you want to hear, but I never break a new semiauto gun in with hand loads, reloads or remanufactured ammunition.

This assures me that any issues with reloads will not typically be an issue with the gun.

My personal preference for break in is 250 or so rounds for a target, plinker, fun gun. For a self or home defense gun it’s 500 rounds. I prefer Glocks but I would do this with any semiauto.

 

[ballman6711]

Was loaded as single rounds from magazine and fired with mag in place

As others have said, your loads are probably a bit light. But your statement may indicate a weak magazine spring. I would load a few rounds in the mag and try to fire to see if they cycle and eject.

Using factory ammo is also a good suggestion. If it works with a few different types then it is most likely your reloads and not the gun or magazine.

chris

 

[LiveLife]

Why so short

1.05" does seem pretty short for the RMR 124gr Nuke

Not really due to nose profile. RMR MPR/Nuke is essentially truncated RN profile meant for more reliable feeding and also to be used for .357 Sig (Hence "multi-purpose") - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/rocky-mountain.919580/#post-12639925

 

[1KPerDay]

Ah. Brand new gun. Do you have another worn in pistol to try? I bet it’ll work. Also have a nice firm grip. Also read up on the plunk test for getting your OAL right for your gun.

 

[longdayjake]

What do the cases look like when they come out? Are they covered in carbon? A tell-tale sign of under-charged ammo is that it won't expand to fill the chamber all the way and you will get most if not all of the casing covered in black soot. The sierra HP is a different profile from the RMR so even though it may be a bit shorter, the ogive can start in a different place because of how we form the HP differently. The shortest I've seen someone HAVE to load the nuke is 1.05" in a CZ. (Guns without throats are stupid).

 

[BC17A]

OK, these were the loads..........all with CCI 500 primers.........so won't repeat that part. Didn't have the chrony setup, so no velocities to report. All cases new. Loaded about 10 rounds of each, so can keep going on all of them after shooting some factory. Loads with Acc #5 and #7 pretty easy on the hand. Like shooting a 22 auto .

Load 1: Slide was found partially open, spent brass hung

Starline case
Hornady XTP JHP - 124
Acc #5 = 5.5 grains
COAL 1.06

Load 2: Spent brass found in chamber

RMR Case
RMR 124 JHP nuke
Acc #5 = 5.5 grains
COAL = 1.040

Load 3: Spent brass in chamber

RMR Case
RMR 124 JHP nuke
Acc #7 = 6.3 grains
COAL = 1.050

Load 4: Brass ejected, action cycled normal

RMR Case
RMR 124 JHP nuke
HS-6 = 6.3 grains
COAL 1.050

Load 5: Spent brass in chamber

RMR Case
RMR 124 JHP nuke
Power Pistol = 5.0 grains
COAL 1.050

Loads 1&2- Up the load by .1gn -.2gn which would be about maximum charge.

Load 3- Way too low for AA#7. Take that one up to 6.8gn - 7gn to start.

Load 5- Again too low for PP. Bump up to 5.4gn - 5.6gn.

 

[JCSC]

I had this same issue with my first loads, which happened to be 9 and 380. I just started too low and was terrified I would blow my face off.

I ended up with a bunch of dirty ammo that wouldn’t cycle my guns.

thankfully I only loaded about 100 or so.

 

[MFInc]

That's better than the bullet not coming out!

 

[tightgroup tiger]

My first ones I loaded before I even owned a 9mm. I had them in my range bag at the range one day and someone was talking about how hard his 9mm was to shoot.
I gave him a bunch of them, they were just over minimum load. He came back later and wanted to buy as many of them as I would load for him. I wouldn't sell him any because of obvious reasons.
When I bought my first 9mm (SR-9) I tried some of these loads in it and they wouldn't cycle the gun. I had to shoot them all single shot style.

I agree with the guy who said these problems started with advent of the +P pistols.

 

[Howa 9700]

With respect to +P, going over my notes and load data, there is a lot of data that is either misleading or in conflict. Sierra and Western both include separate sections for +P loads. Others, and if memory serves, Lyman is one of them, that shows basically same powder charges as these two do for +P loads in regular load data.....but do not describe them as such (+P loads). Bu then you look at seating depth and they are not the same. For those stiff loads, COAL is as much as .030 to .040 longer, which may help de-fang those stout loads. Devil in the details. Am finding there are a lot of moving parts to account for loading for the 9mm.

And going over the Sig owner's manual, they don't mention use of +P ammo. They do address it in FAQ on website, and that basically says "use of +P ammo is sorta kinda OK now and then, but don't make a habit of using it".

But sounds like I'm not the only one who has run into this problem.......so there is hope.

 

[Howa 9700]

What do the cases look like when they come out? Are they covered in carbon? A tell-tale sign of under-charged ammo is that it won't expand to fill the chamber all the way and you will get most if not all of the casing covered in black soot. The sierra HP is a different profile from the RMR so even though it may be a bit shorter, the ogive can start in a different place because of how we form the HP differently. The shortest I've seen someone HAVE to load the nuke is 1.05" in a CZ. (Guns without throats are stupid).

Sorry, took me bit to get back to this. Cases were not black, but all look scratched / scuffed. Didn't look like they do before fired. Am wondering if chamber was left rough and might benefit from a lite bit of lapping to smooth things out?

 

[longdayjake]

Sorry, took me bit to get back to this. Cases were not black, but all look scratched / scuffed. Didn't look like they do before fired. Am wondering if chamber was left rough and might benefit from a lite bit of lapping to smooth things out?

So it may benefit from a polish. You may also be limp wristing. Could also be too stiff of a guiderod spring.

 

[ballman6711]

Cases were not black, but all look scratched / scuffed

Can you post a few pics of the fired reloads? Might help.

chris

 

[LiveLife]

"modern" 9mm pistols rated for +P loads with stiffer recoil springs

just over minimum load ... my first 9mm (SR-9) ... they wouldn't cycle the gun ... I agree with the guy who said these problems started with advent of the +P pistols

Agree. Often, start charges would not reliably cycle the slides of my Glocks with new recoil spring assemblies (RSA).

Some people do not realize recoil springs are "consumable" items and never replace their worn recoil springs; so even lighter charge loads down towards published start charge may cycle the slide of their pistols. So they may "perceive" their load is fine until shot in another pistol with newer/stiffer recoil spring that won't cycle the slide reliably.

I often carried replacement recoil springs for 1911/Glock to the range and when people complained about sharp muzzle flip and snappy recoil of Glock 22, amazingly muzzle flip and snappy recoil was much milder with new recoil springs.

new Sig p226

OP has a new pistol with stiffer recoil spring and powder charges need to be high enough to reliably cycle the slide and extract/eject spent cases. That threshold may be higher than pistols with worn/weaker recoil springs. And incremental powder work up is how we identify that powder charge.

 

[Howa 9700]

Hard to see until you blow them up........All are about the same. Some of the scratches are horizontal, which looks to me like machining marks left in the chamber. A quick lap would smooth those out.

 

[LiveLife]

Hard to see until you blow them up........All are about the same. Some of the scratches are horizontal, which looks to me like machining marks left in the chamber. A quick lap would smooth those out

Definitely "chamber rub" marks produced when brass case is expanded and pulled back during recoil/case extraction.

I get those marks with varying degrees in my 9mm barrels, some more than others. They all clean/polish up fine and resize normally, until they are shot again.

 

[Howa 9700]

Quick update:

Upped Load 3 to 7.2 grains Acc #7 and that did the trick. Cycled slide and ejected spent case as it should. I suspect upping others will yield similar results.

Also, gave chamber a light lapping and most of the scratches and case abrasion is gone.

Thanks guys..........back on track!!!

 

[LiveLife]

I would test the following on the next range trip then go from there based on results.

No. 7 - Since 6.3 gr already tested, I would test 6.7, 7.0 gr and 7.3 gr

Upped Load 3 to 7.2 grains Acc #7 and that did the trick. Cycled slide and ejected spent case as it should.

Nice - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/first-try-at-9mm-fail.920301/page-2#post-12655149

I suspect upping others will yield similar results.

Sounds like a plan.

Definitely "chamber rub" marks produced when brass case is expanded and pulled back during recoil/case extraction

gave chamber a light lapping and most of the scratches and case abrasion is gone ... back on track!!!

Good to hear.

 

[Howa 9700]

Nuther update:

Tried same load as above with 7.2 grains Acc #7, , except this time loaded with RMR 124 gr. JHP.........to COAL of 1.06. Once again, cycled and ejected cases.....so all good. Past that, here was the target at 20 feet. I'm no expert pistolero, but managed to put two rounds thru the same hole.



The problem now being where gun put them. Rounds had been hitting low and left before, but I thought that was my shooting. So this confirmed my shooting wasn't that bad, but apparently sights are off. This shows how much it was. So new problem I hadn't expected, is how to get move those impacts right and up. Sig documentation on this is abysmal, but apparently if you have the right tool, you can drift the rear sight to the right.......as needed to get impact centered vertically. Took a bit of looking, but this p226 was shipped with #8 front and #6 rear, which if I understand their numbering system, would lower the point of impact by some amount.

Sig doesn't mention it in owners manual, but in the FAQ on their website does say they use "combat sights" on this weapon. Supposed to center and cover target with front sight (as opposed to impact being on horizontal line even with top of sight). Virtually every weapon I have ever fired accounts for some degree of rise and fall of a bullet, creating an arc, with impact at some determined distance. I would think a pistol would be most usable at all practical distances if this horizontal impact was set to 25 yards. I doubt it would be high enough at any point from shooter to target to miss if it was set that way, and certainly more practical than 2 inches low at 20 feet like this one is doing.

So how do I get there?

 

[drband]

Nuther update:

Tried same load as above with 7.2 grains Acc #7, , except this time loaded with RMR 124 gr. JHP.........to COAL of 1.06. Once again, cycled and ejected cases.....so all good. Past that, here was the target at 20 feet. I'm no expert pistolero, but managed to put two rounds thru the same hole.

View attachment 1159557

The problem now being where gun put them. Rounds had been hitting low and left before, but I thought that was my shooting. So this confirmed my shooting wasn't that bad, but apparently sights are off. This shows how much it was. So new problem I hadn't expected, is how to get move those impacts right and up. Sig documentation on this is abysmal, but apparently if you have the right tool, you can drift the rear sight to the right.......as needed to get impact centered vertically. Took a bit of looking, but this p226 was shipped with #8 front and #6 rear, which if I understand their numbering system, would lower the point of impact by some amount.

Sig doesn't mention it in owners manual, but in the FAQ on their website does say they use "combat sights" on this weapon. Supposed to center and cover target with front sight (as opposed to impact being on horizontal line even with top of sight). Virtually every weapon I have ever fired accounts for some degree of rise and fall of a bullet, creating an arc, with impact at some determined distance. I would think a pistol would be most usable at all practical distances if this horizontal impact was set to 25 yards. I doubt it would be high enough at any point from shooter to target to miss if it was set that way, and certainly more practical than 2 inches low at 20 feet like this one is doing.

So how do I get there?

Are you shooting off a rest?

 

[Howa 9700]

I was standing with back of left hand being stabilized on a vertical post........follow thru was pretty good, and I was focused on where top edge of front sight was when gun fired. Felt take up of trigger and when it looked good, squeezed them off.