Flashlight/Pistol Technique

[cbjessee@NH]

OK - so I tried all the ways one is taught and settled on one and a backup. But one thing bothers me - pistol mounted lights always get a bad rap as you have to cover the unseen to then illuminate it. Yet I don't remember any technique taught where you keep the pistol at safe ready in one hand while flashing around with the other to see and identify. All ways are how to shoot with a light, but I guess I never heard how to use a light and pistol in COndition Orange.

What's the strategy here? Holstered and hand on grip while flashing with the other hand?

BRET

 

[Charles S]

Bret,

The answer to the question you ask is the neck index method taught by sure fire and also by Jerry Miculek. I would not attempt to teach the method on a board, but it is very well described in a special issue of Guns & Ammo "SureFire Presents Combat Tactics.

I will provide a simple description the fashlight is indexed on jaw/neck juncture just bellow the ear, so that the light moves in conjuction with the user's head but does not block the peripheral vision. The light also can iluminate the gun sights in this manner. This is an excellent search technique with multiple advantages in a search senerio. This technique is excellent for a right handed person to make a left hand corner.

If you are really interested I highly recomend a night combat course. Bang Inc. taught by Mr. Miculek is the best I have attended.

If I can provide any addtional information I would be happy to.

Charles

 

[SKN]

The flashlight technique described by Charles S in conjunction with the handgun holstered or in a muzzle depressed, 1-hand, retention ready position will meet the goal you desire.

 

[BerettaNut92]

Funny you guys mention that magazine. I went to Barnes & Noble tonite but they only had one copy and it was thrashed.

So I went to another. No dice, didn't have it.

Went to another, no joy.

It's personal now, I really want that magazine. I normally don't like gun magazines, but that looked like it was packed with information.

 

[Beer for my Horses]

I will provide a simple description the fashlight is indexed on jaw/neck juncture just bellow the ear, so that the light moves in conjuction with the user's head

That is certainly one good option for some situations. However, in many scenarios you won't want to let the BG's be able to index on your head. Another technique I was taught for cornerning was going around low, crouched, with the body, gun at high ready, and leading with/and holding the light above the head with the left hand. If some BG shoots at the light he won't be shooting at your head.

 

[rage]

Check out.......The Harries method/modified Harries/reverse Harries. There are pics and an explanation here:

http://www.suarezinternational.com/harries.html

 

[rage]

let's see.....

I practice the same thing with a 4 battery MAGLITE.

 

[Beer for my Horses]

rage, fwiw, the pistol in the pic is half-tilted, almost gangster style; poor grip technique. The person in the pic also has his finger on the trigger--premature for what we're talking about in this thread (condition orange).

 

[rage]

Just check out the article...it is substantive. The Harries method is cutting edge. The person in the pic is Gabe Suarez, he's no gang banger. How to hold a flashlight and a pistol?

 

[Beer for my Horses]

The person in the pic is Gabe Suarez, he's no gang banger.

And in picture #2 he shows proper technique.

 

[Preacherman]

I second Charles S's recommendation of Bang! Inc.'s night shooting course - I did it a couple of years ago, and even after having done night shooting at Thunder Ranch, Chapman Academy and LFI, I still learned a lot of new ideas. One also has the fun of seeing Jerry use tracers from a revolver in rapid fire - looks like a machine-gun as the lines of light reach out downrange! They also demonstrate things like the difference between a long gun with a flash-hider, and the same gun without - very educational...

 

[Joe Talmadge]

And in picture #2 he shows proper technique.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't picture #1 Gabe's suggested modification of Harries? If so, pic #2 is arguably the textbook version of Harries, but modifications done for a good reason aren't necessarily improper, right?

Joe

 

[Smoke]

I use Pic#2 whatever you want to call it.

Powderhorn Ranch does an excellent night course in the Personal Protection seminar.

IF you don't take a course on night/low-light shooting, try it sometime on your own. It's an eye opening experience.

 

[Beer for my Horses]

but modifications done for a good reason aren't necessarily improper, right?

I won't argue that Gabe can't shoot great that way. But with most shooters, especially new shooters, tilting the pistol will introduce a circular type of recoil that is very difficult to control; just try it the next time you're at the range and you'll see what I mean. I respect Gabe and all his knowledge, but just because he demonstrates a certain technique doesn't make it proper or beneficial for MOST shooters.

 

[sonoranjack]

In terms of tilting the pistol. I tilt the pistol all most "gangster style" when shooting weak hand. The range instructor said to do that to align the sights w/ my dominint eye. In terms of the Harris technique w/ flashlight. I shoot to the left. Asked the range istructor about my problem. He said not all techniques work for all shooters. He suggested a weapon mounted light or a different technique. When I demonstrated w/ my hands w/o weapon, he said I was pushing my weapon hand to the left w/ my weak hand. I might modify the Harris by having my weak elbow at an angle instead of pointed to the ground.

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Beer, gotcha

I will note, though, that like sonoranjack, I personally tilt the pistol when shooting one-handed, though more like Suarez does than gangsta style. I was first taught to shoot this way by Mas Ayoob, and found that a slight tilt works better for me when shooting one-handed, I can ride the recoil better and snap the pistol back on target faster. I don't think I'm more accurate when holding the pistol vertical, though it's possible -- what I do know, though, is that at speed, a slight tilt is a big advantage for me, since I can snap the pistol back into position so much faster for the second shot. In the context of defensive shooting, it's accuracy at speed that's my priority.

Although I haven't trained with him, Stanford's book also seems to advocate a slight tilt, for the same reasons as Ayoob. Suarez is advocating that modified Harries for a different reason, that textbook Harries is tiring, whereas the modified position is not.

Anyway, just some insight,

Joe

 

[Mute]

I did train with Andy Standford in one of his classes and he suggested trying a slight tilt on shooting one handed. For me at least, at a certain tilt, the muzzle flip did become more managable and gave me better follow up shots than holding my gun vertically.

Also regarding the photos of Gabe. Don't hold me to this, but IIRC, he advocated the tilt not as a replacement for a proper Harries technique but as another way to use this technique over a longer duration because the tilt releases some of the stress from the unnatural position of the Harries. It also makes for less fatigue when having to move around and still maintaining that position.

 

[Beer for my Horses]

In the context of defensive shooting, it's accuracy at speed that's my priority.

A very wise assessment. If any technique allows you to do this then by all means use it. Your quote above is the main reason I sold my .40 Glock and bought a couple 9mm's (26 and a 17).

I personally could not shoot accurately with the tilt displayed in Gabe's #1 pic. But if you're talking about a slighter tilt, I might try it and see. Tilted grips generally give me a circular recoil that I don't find attractive.

 

[Beer for my Horses]

In terms of tilting the pistol. I tilt the pistol all most "gangster style" when shooting weak hand. The range instructor said to do that to align the sights w/ my dominint eye.

When shooting with my weak hand I simply move the pistol slightly to the right to line up with my dominant eye.

 

[Fred]

Hey guys,

Give this a test drive and see if it works for you. If your a mod. weaver shooter I think you'll like it.

1. Make a fist with your support side hand The thumb is resting on top of the index finger. Rotate your hand so that the palm and finger nails are facing up.

2. Place the flash light (a small one works best, E2, 6P, 6Z, et al.) between the thumb and index finger. The thumb if facing the lens and the index finger is pointed back at you. You'll need to hold the flash light near the tail cap.

3. Rotate the hand holding the flash light clock wise until the support side thumb is at about the 11 o'clock position (right handers).

4. Place the support side hand so that the body of the flash light (the part your holding with the thumb and index finger) comes into contact with the bottom of the trigger guard. The middle, ring, and little finger of the support side hand over lap the fingers of the firing side hand as with a normal two hand grip. Fingers on fingers.

5. To activate the light pull it back until the tail cap comes into contact with the firing side middle finger.

 

[HS/LD]

Tilted grips generally give me a circular recoil that I don't find attractive.

What the hell is circular recoil?



Regards,
HS/LD

 

[Beer for my Horses]

What the hell is circular recoil?

Just like it sounds: instead of recoiling backward and the muzzle flipping up, the gun recoils in a circular pattern because the breech is tilted upward instead of to the side.

 

[Barney]

Why a Flashlight in a Gunfight???

About 30+ years ago in a cold, dark, underground drainage tunnel leading off the Border from Nogales, Mexico into Nogales, Arizona two PI's ( as Border Patrolmen were called by their Peers then) were dispatched to intercept some people who had set off the sensors in the Tunnel. They dropped one PI off at the south end and one farther North. The southern PI overtook the two smugglers. He had them spread eagled on the wall as he attempted to call his pardner on his walkie-talkie. Also in his hands were a flashlight and a Model 19 4" service revolver. One of the Mexicans kept trying to put his hand down near his waist. He finally succeeded, and came out with a fully loaded Browning Hi-Power. Just before the shooting started the PI ditched the light. Both men emptied their guns. Miraculously no one was hit. They knew it was a hi-power because the Mexican laid it on a shelf in the tunnel when he climbed out near the border.

About a year or so later on Highway 118 in West Texas, which runs from the Study Butte area north to Alpine and on to Kent, two of Alpine's finest PI's were on a traffic checkpoint south of Alpine looking for smugglers and wets. A tactic often used by smugglers then was to drive through the checkpoint at a high rate of speed, go about a half a mile or so and slam on the brakes. When the car stopped everyone would bail out and run. That is what happen this night. The PI'S caught one in the Bar ditch and one escaped. The Driver jumped the fence, and ran out into the pasture and hid in the Greasewood and brush. One of the PI's went out into the pasture looking for this...he thought WET. Instead he found an armed smuggler. The PI said I made a mistake having my flashlight in my gun hand. He found the smuggler, and told him to get up. As he did the smuggler pointed a Chiefs Special at the PI and fired. Just before the shooting started the PI ditched the flashlight. The PI fired 3 shots, his pardner on the highway fired six. The smuggler fired one more shot as he was running away. No one was hit.

About 75 miles North and 3 days later the Marfa Sector Station Senior pointed a Sawed OFF Shotgun at the Mexican smuggler sitting next to a stock tank on a ranch, and arrested him. He still had the gun. He was tried and convicted and sentenced to 10 years.

Both of these stories have one thing in common. Both officers ditched their flashlights when the shooting started.

 

[sonoranjack]

Barney

Another thing both stories have in common. No 1 got hit during the gunfight.

 

[HS/LD]

So the moral of that story must be:

If you wanna actually hit the target you are firing at... hang on to your damn flash light.


HS/LD