Knowing and being able to do something different are two different things. What if someone is in a crowded, public place - a mall at Christmas, or a park during a festival - and they are attacked? There are likely to be people standing behind the attacker.
FMJ 9mm for CCW?
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Certaindeaf
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Since I'm a fisherman (tall tale teller) I remember shooting squirrel through eight feet of live pine with 30-06 ball. Bark a squirrel?. ha, shoot through the whole tree. Know thyself and perhaps thy arm.
mljdeckard
Member
If the shot isn't safe, you don't take the shot. RULE NUMBER FOUR ALWAYS APPLIES.
You can be prepared to do things like take a knee to change the angle of the shot, or change your position. What you can NEVER do is assume that ANY bullet in a defensive pistol load will stop in its intended target.
You can be prepared to do things like take a knee to change the angle of the shot, or change your position. What you can NEVER do is assume that ANY bullet in a defensive pistol load will stop in its intended target.
R.W.Dale
Member
And under the exact same situations how many how many bystanders would have been struck with jhp rounds?
You see you only have half the facts needed to make a logical point. Jhp bullets are not magic they fully penatrate the human body all the time be it a case of a non com hit a clothing clogged jhp or just a complete pass thru.
A jhp is no replacement for knowing your target and what's beyond it. Something we all know due to RECENT events the nypd has a flagrant disregard for.
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There are no guaranties of anything. All we can do in life is try to influence probabilities.
9mm FMJ is one of the more penetrative rounds available. There are choices in that caliber that reduce the likelihood not merely of the round coming out the back side of an intended target, but coming out with velocity sufficient to seriously wound or kill another person.
Do 9mm FMJ's pose a real risk of overpenetration? Yes. Are there other 9mm rounds that lower that risk? Yes. Is there any round that is guaranteed not to overpenetrate? No.
Right?
Certaindeaf
member
There's a thousand rounds that'll put the smack on a varmint more then ball/fmj. unless you're potting/culling elephant.
mljdeckard
Member
If a shot is not safe, it is not suddenly MADE safe just because you are using jhp. Do you think it's ok to shoot into a crowd as long as you're using jhp?
Nobody is saying "shoot into a crowd." But there are going to be times when there will be people - known or unknown (behind concealment, but not cover) - when a person must shoot or die.
Now, which of my 3 questions at the end of #57 do you take issue with?
Now, which of my 3 questions at the end of #57 do you take issue with?
mljdeckard
Member
Exactly what we asked. If jhp ammo still carries a risk of overpenetration, will you use it any differently than you would fmj?
Averageman
Member
If thats all you have, I wouldn't hesitate to use it.
There are instances I can think of such as;
I would imagine it might actually be a better solution if you are being car jacked or assaulted through the window of your car.
It, FMJ is not a perfect answer for every solution, but certainly it beats leaving the gun at home.
Keep trying to get some good JHP, but keep your pistol and an extra magazine with you whenever possible.
There are instances I can think of such as;
I would imagine it might actually be a better solution if you are being car jacked or assaulted through the window of your car.
It, FMJ is not a perfect answer for every solution, but certainly it beats leaving the gun at home.
Keep trying to get some good JHP, but keep your pistol and an extra magazine with you whenever possible.
R.W.Dale
Member
I suppose you're also the guy who plows through the line of children getting on the bus in your car rather than to hit the trash truck you didn't see stopped ahead of you?
No but I might not resort to my sidearm quite so readily. Please elaborate on the scenario where you absolutely positively have to shoot into a crowd.
We as gun owners fall into the intellectual rut of "if all your tools are hammers all your problems begin to look like nails" far far too easily.
Ya know running away or fighting hand to hand are always viable options
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The damage to innocent bystanders due to 'overpenetration' is insignificant due to damage of missing the intended target and hitting said innocent.
My concern would be more that i never have heard of 'red dot' ammo. Around here, Walmart seems to be getting in regular shipments of decent brand FMJ.
FYI: I prefer Federal HST 147gr in my Kahr CM9. More controllable recoil, good test results.
My concern would be more that i never have heard of 'red dot' ammo. Around here, Walmart seems to be getting in regular shipments of decent brand FMJ.
FYI: I prefer Federal HST 147gr in my Kahr CM9. More controllable recoil, good test results.
splattergun
Member
Whether FMJ is optimal or not is irrelevant if it's all you have. It is unquestionably superior to an empty magazine.
seeker_two
Member
I remember reading Mr. Ayoob's account of the FMJ pass-throughs. I also remember that there was some controversy as to whether the injuries were the result of the pass-throughs or from rounds that missed the intended target.
Did that controversy ever get resolved?
Did that controversy ever get resolved?
Certaindeaf
member
It is my impression that more than half of the respondents to this thread are fairly cavalier.. pretty much saying "no sweat, baby!". strange
cl4de6
Member
You're right. But the military also shoots at other things such as vehicles or equipment. Fighters may be wearing armor as well. Even if they are not, you still may have to punch through layers of equipment - bandoleers, clothing, a radio and all of the assorted crap that even the most spartan of insurgents need to carry.
allaroundhunter
Member
I don't see your point. I have already said that civilians should not base their carry ammunition solely by what the military uses because the military is bound by the Hague accords and they are in different situations....
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We seem to be talking past one another. If running away is a viable option, you aren't shooting anyway. By the time a civilian has pulled a gun, it's already shoot-or-die time, or should be.
In an urban environment, it will be the rare circumstance where a person can know with certainty that there is not someone on the other side of an assailant. Given that, and given that some instances can arise where deadly force with a firearm is nevertheless justified, it seems the excercise of due care to try - if legally and practically permissible - to select ammunition that will minimize the risk to bystanders.
BTW, rounds coming out the back side of a target don't necessarily come out on a straight line from the way they came in. Even if there's nobody directly behind the target, that doesn't mean that overpenetration can't pose a problem.
Realistically, the odds on all this are low. But they aren't zero. It's probably best to move the numbers towards zero to the extent reasonably possible.
I don't know. But he shows two separate categories, so it's not simply an assumption that any bystanders were shoot-through victims. IIRC, 9mm ball will get 20"+ of gellatin penetration.
I also seem to recall reading horrific historical accounts of some mass executions during WWII where victims were intentionally arranged in tandem so that a single handgun round would pass through 2 or 3 victims. I don't have a citation handy for that right now.
NATO 124-grain FMJ has over 27" of penetration in gel:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound Profiles/9mm US M882.jpg
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound Profiles/9mm US M882.jpg
R.W.Dale
Member
While I agree as a broader sense where we disagree is with the train of thought that there's a bad shot that shouldn't be taken with fmj but can with jhp. If the shot shouldn't be taken it shouldn't be taken. There's a plethora of reasons to carry hollow points. However relying on them as a hedge against disregard for rule number FOUR shouldn't be considered as one of them
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