FN FiveseveN Warning *Picture Heavy*

[f3rr37]

Hey everyone,

I'll try and find time tonight to get pictures and measurements of my resized brass, primers, etc... if I get a chance I will, I'm busy tonight so I might not be able to.

f3rr37

 

[M1911]

The load data I used has been extensively tested by the owner of it, EliteAmmunition.[/quoted]Tested how? In an instrumented test barrel, measuring the maximum chamber pressure? Or did he just make up some loads, shoot them in his gun, it didn't blow up so he called it good?

Recipes in reloading manuals have been tested in instrumented barrels. Stick with them.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

The load data I used has been extensively tested by the owner of it, EliteAmmunition.

Not only tested by the the owner (and CEO), but also by one of the lowest level employees. EliteAmmunition isn't a big shop.

Given that FN doesn't reccomend 55 gr. ammo and the couple of reloading spec sheets I have looked at don't even include loads for it, and given that EliteAmmunition markets 55 gr. 5.7x28mm, I would have to say EliteAmmunition has a vested interest in a non-ammo resolution.

That isn't to say that the OP or FN don't have vested interests either, only that EliteAmmunition isn't an unbiased 3rd party.

 

[Curiousity]

wow...

 

[f3rr37]

I would like to point out this:
http://www.fnhusa.com/le/news/reviews.asp

Click the PDF (173k) June, 2008 5.7x28 ammo Guns&Ammo

Interesting to see that FN has published reloading data (albeit not their own) on their website for 68grain projectiles in the FiveseveN pistol using TrueBlue powder.

I haven't had a chance to take any more pictures yet, I will as soon as I get some free time.

 

[HM2PAC]

The starting load they have listed for a 50gr projectile is 4.5gr and max load is 5.4gr.

You were using a 55gr projectile and 5.0gr of TrueBlue.

What was your starting load?

 

[RecoilRob]

Reading the link you refer to, they used 'pistol length pressure barrel' for their testing. They did NOT fire these in a 5.7 pistol.

Peak pressure only tells a little bit of the story. The 'curve' is MOST important, especially when the machine involved is dependant on the timing like the 5.7 is.

Plus, they have no way to test the once or twice fired brass for stress induced weaknesses.

Looks to me that the 5.7 is best left to the Gov. agencies to feed factory fodder forever. (nice alliteration, eh?)

 

[HM2PAC]

Let me guess,.....

You increased the bullet weight & the load of powder.


RecoilRob,
That's what I was thinking. The article says they had test barrels made. Whether or not those barrels are mounted on a pistol is not mentioned. I doubt that the test barrels were actually mounted on the pistol.

 

[Blackbeard]

I think you've convinced me to pack a first-aid kit in my range bag from now on.

 

[mjrodney]

The confidence in factory ammunition I see expressed in this thread probably should not be totally absolute.

Factory ammo has certainly not always been perfect, as evidenced in the photo attached (rounds are from the same box of Remington .223).

FN's 5.7 ammo is made by Fiocchi, out of Italy, and as good as they are, they, like all the others, are not perfect.

If a handgun CAN fire out of battery, then it CAN do so with an errant factory round, as well.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

You are right that factory ammo isn't perfect all the time, but round for round, factor ammo is more reliable than reloads.

I did like your photography. By not lining up the rounds correctly, you accentuated the difference in seating depth to make it look like the top round was even longer than it actually was.

And sure, if a gun can fire out of battery, it can do so with an errant factory round just as easily as with a reload. The issue here is that given the problems folks have with reloads the problems of creating maverick loads, and the fact that the OP wants to lay the blame on the manufacturer for what may be his own mistake, folks are hesitatant to accept the premise that it much be a design flaw that caused the incident. This is further bolstered by the OP's claims of being upset that FN didn't treat him right after he called to complain that his gun blew up after he repeatedly violated the warranty. So it all seems a bit fishy.

 

[lvcat2004]

fishiest are those who are encouraging the OP to sue the manufacturer, AND the property owner of the range where he was at.

What kind of trial lawyer loving liberals do we have on this board??

What are you gonna tell me next?? spray some water on the floor of my local Target and slip and hurt myself??

Is it difficult these days for grown men (and women) to take responsibility for his/her own action?

 

[mjrodney]

Double Naught Spy, congratulations on your purchase of a pencil....but there was no attempt to line up the cartridges.

Overall length wasn't my point. It's seating depth of the bullet.

Kindly take a note of the cannelure visible in the one round, and consider that the cannelure in the second is buried inside the case.

 

[Harley Quinn]

You reloaded and if it was your load in the pistol at the time you are right, no one is going to give you a new one. Why it is important to remember to read the warranty (that comes with the pistol) Many mistakes are made when shooting.

If you are not aware and doing some double tap (very fast shooting) you can have some problems. Most ranges ask that you keep it to a slow rapid if you are going to shoot like that. If in competition it is a different ball game for sure.

Being a lefty you are probably very lucky for that reason alone. A right handed shooter could have been injured worse, hard to tell. Thanks for all the pictures.

I am surprised I am so late to the thread. Many have given a lot of good information and you seem to be on top of it.

Those that are "Phishing" are not real sharp, want you to throw your money away. You have survived, you should be happy.

When you load bottle necks in a pistol there are numerous things to consider, not like a bolt action rifle for sure.

Take care.

 

[icebones]

shocking FN allows the 5-7 to be market with an inherent flaw like that.

count your lucky stars buddy, you could have came out with a lot more damage than that. hope you were wearing saftey glasses.

hope everything heals up fine.

 

[KyJim]

Those who pooh pooh the idea of holding the manufacturer liable should have second thoughts. One of my favorite gun liability cases (favorite because of the language quoted below) involves a case of a modified rifle and handloads. The jury found for the plaintiff and the manufacturer appealed (Olin Mathieson a/k/a Winchester). Here is how the dissent described the facts:

In March, 1955, plaintiff bought a nationally advertised, name-brand Winchester Model 70, .220 rifle. He removed the standard barrel, replacing it with an abortive one of different size and caliber, made by an unknown local gunsmith, whose genius or capability is not reflected in the record. With this hybrid substitute for the standard equipment, plaintiff was fortunate, nonetheless, to survive the firing of 150 to 200 rounds. Early in 1956, plaintiff's genius for disaffection from using the gun under normal, standard conditions, led him to seek and have another unknown Reno gunsmith resize the barrel to accommodate a longer cartridge, and to place a new stock on what, a year before, had been a standard, nationally advertized firing piece. At this juncture only the middle of the original rifle remained factorywise. It is not quite clear why this portion of the firearm had not been replaced by the gunnery idiosyncracies of the plaintiff.

Plaintiff not only was a tinkerer, but a ‘handloader,’ obviously harboring an indisposition to use standard ammunition, and entertaining a bent for manufacturing his own unorthodox slugs. Such ammunition, undesigned for the gun he bought, and unknown in the market overt for use in the now newly calibrated, converted, blunderbuss, nonetheless was employed by plaintiff. After using these home-made, overstuffed, undesigned, unrecommended cartridges filled with faster-burning, more explosive and more highly pressured slugs than ever had been used before, his luck ran out after firing but two rounds. On the third, the middle of his rifle blew up, removing part of his finger which, I suggest, the defendant involuntarily purchased through the agency of what I consider to have been a wholly unreasonable jury.

I'm not suggesting the manufacturer is liable in this case, only that you simply can't dismiss this as a possibility even with the warranty being voided for using handloads.

As a side bar to the above case, one of the plaintiff's expert was Joseph Casull who was described:

Mr. Casull's qualifications are these: He is the owner and operator of a garage in connection with which he has operated a sporting goods store for a number of years. He stated that he has constructed and worked with guns for 10 years; has experimented with the tempering of guns by heat treatments; has conducted numerous tests on firearms in studying to become proficient in their making; and is presently experimenting with and making cylinders for high-powered revolvers.

Wondering if this was a relative to Dick Casull? One expert on the side of the defense was simply listed as "Mr. Speer" with no other information.

The case is Webb v. Olin Mathieson Chemical Corp., 9 Utah 2d 275, 342 P.2d 1094 (Utah 1959).

 

[hags]

shocking FN allows the 5-7 to be market with an inherent flaw like that.

count your lucky stars buddy, you could have came out with a lot more damage than that. hope you were wearing saftey glasses.

hope everything heals up fine.

icebones, what inherent flaw is that?

If you don't follow the manufacturer's directions on use, ie, no reloads then you're libel.

At one of the local ranges I shoot at frequently we had a dumbass blow up his handgun, I believe it was an H&K, with lead bullet reloads. Now, there are signs posted that state "NO RELOADS ALLOWED".
Just like in grade school there are people who can't or won't follow the rules and ruin for the majority. Worse yet are the people who think that the rules don't apply to them, that somehow they're special and know better.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Double Naught Spy, congratulations on your purchase of a pencil....but there was no attempt to line up the cartridges.

Overall length wasn't my point. It's seating depth of the bullet.

Kindly take a note of the cannelure visible in the one round, and consider that the cannelure in the second is buried inside the case.

I understand completely. However, you never said your "point" in the post. You just showed the photograph with no explanation other than to say factory ammo isn't always perfect.

Of course you were not showing overall length in the images. You didn't show the whole cartridges so you could not have been showing overall length, could you?

What you did show was a side by side comparison of two cartridges, one of which showed a bullet not seated a fully as another and in the case of the bullet not seated fully, you also had it misaligned such that it made the bullet look that much worse.

If you just wanted to point out that the cannelure was exposed and hence indicating the bullet wasn't seated properly, I am not sure why you didn't say so in the first place.

 

[LongRangeInternational]

Hit up the B Vitamins for nerve healing.

 

[wally]

Reloads or not, if random samples of the FiveseveN will fire 1/4" out of battery as shown in this YouTube video, I'd not want to be on FNs defense team ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T_XQFzCyR8

Sure reloads could cause the gun to be out of battery, but a safe design will not fire in such condition. (Go back earlier in the thread, I tested my EAA Witness match with primed empty brass and it will not fire if the slide and barrel are not locked up)

If his example was somehow broken to cause it, to me suggests a recall to address the failure would be wise in the long term.

If the normal design allows this, I'd run not walk away from the FiveseveN! In the field any manner of FOD can prevent a gun from going into battery independent of the ammo in use. Firing in such condition is dangerous and practically by definition poor design -- IMHO far more dangerous than firing when dropped on the muzzle (from a height consistent with normal use), which we can pretty much agree shouldn't happen either with a well designed gun.

No FiveseveN for me after reading this thread!

--wally.

 

[lvcat2004]

Wally,

while I agree with your feeling toward not wanting to be around FN 5-7's, have you EVER heard of a 5-7 Kaboom except for here, EVER on the internet, and how many THOUSANDS of 5-7's are out there?

How many Glock KB's have you heard of and are you running away from them???

Statistically speaking, (although I don't know that accurate 5-7 KB stats), running away from a 5-7 operated by mature adults using proper factory loads is similar to not going outside on a cloudy day for fear of being struck by lightnings......I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[mbott]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T_XQFzCyR8

I know I haven't fully made up my mind if this video fairly represents the actions taking place during the firing of the Five-seveN. I tend to think that it doesn't, and therefore it just clouds the real issue.

The video had the slide being manually pulled out of battery with the trigger already reset. That's not what is happening during the "normal" firing sequence.

Even being a reloader, I would find it easier to believe that there was an issue with the reloaded round instead of any type of design flaw.

--
Mike

 

[HM2PAC]

I have become more and more skeptical of this posting as time goes on. Originally I had the belief that it was an out of battery firing. Now I'm having my doubts.

I realize that the destroyed gun is locked back Out Of Battery (OOB).

The gun has not been inspected by a professional.
There are videos and demonstrations of 5-7's firing OOB, but they DO NOT kB.

The other thing that strikes me as odd is the reloading procedures:

1. Brass not trimmed to spec.
2. No load data.
3. No crimp on ammo to be used in an auto-loader.
4. Off the cuff load that is heavier in projectile and powder charge than anything published.

These reloading procedures are a request for a catastrophic failure.

I have asked for pics of the primers and the reloads 2 weeks ago.

 

[hags]

This could be a "one in a million" failure, or a "bad batch" of manufactured pieces causing the failure, or a design flaw that will reoccur repeatedly... or "bad mojo" at this point... no one knows until the pistol is examined and some experts figure out how it happened (first) and then "why" it happened. Everything else falls in place from there.

wristtwister, sure it could be all of that which you describe, however, it's a moot point, reloads were used and they're not supposed to be used as per the manufacturer's instructions.
the use of reloads voids the warranty and I'm sure since that is a written disclaimer it protects FN in the event of someone injuring themselves from use of said reloads.

Plain and simple. No mean no, as in no reloads. This means you.
I'm sure the quality of customer sevice is lacking because you chose not to follow the manufacturer's recommendation. If I tell you not to use reloads and you do, and you blow your gun up then I'm sorry but it's not my issue.

 

[BSlacker]

This doesn't have to be an out of battery firing. From reading the patent and looking at my 5.7. I think that the firearm will "express" a overpressure event by blowing off the case head.
Careful reloading using professionally tested data will produce safe sane results. The OP here was out on a limb with his load. Stay off the limb you won't fall and hurt yourself.