Followup to Chet Szymecki's arrest

[Kevin108]

I think joab's issue with proof will be resolved when the VCDL finally gets Norfolk to abide by the FOIA and provide the recorded radio traffic concerning this event.

 

[joab]

Very possibly Kevin
At that time I may adjust my opinion.
I doubt the same could be said about some others here if that free info does not go the way they want it to

But until then I will stand by my current opinion, that the officers transgressions do n0ot rise to the level of criminal activity and infamous cruelty that had been asserted here

I will do it without trying to use cutsy attempts at twisting the words and arguments of others or resorting to melodramatic hyperbole, because very simply, my argument stands on it's own without relying on something that I how might possibly be in some yet unseen document
That is the joy of basing your argument on known facts and not making baseless accusation
I can change my view as new info becomes available without having to back pedal, eat crow or lie to get out f it
Just like it says in my sig line

 

[Deanimator]

I think joab's issue with proof will be resolved when the VCDL finally gets Norfolk to abide by the FOIA and provide the recorded radio traffic concerning this event.

A failure to abide fully by a lawful request for information indicates a guilty conscience, if not an outright attempt to obstruct justice.

 

[Deanimator]

That is the joy of basing your argument on known facts and not making baseless accusation

Norfolk's failure to fully comply with a FOIA request is also a known fact.

I wonder why someone would violate the law that way?

Maybe something to hide...

 

[Deanimator]

Most if not all city police forces have a mandatory academy for recruits, they made a whole series of movies dealing with the subject
Is there a point in there?

Yes.

Why do you believe that those who have attended a police training academy have a LESSER duty to know and obey the law than someone who HASN'T?

Is preserving the [possibly criminal] aggressiveness of police in enforcing [what they choose to believe is] the law more important than protecting the rights and physical safety of citizens whom they may encounter while enforcing [what they claim is] the law?

 

[Deanimator]

know many cops and can tell you that there is no requirement that a cop have a criminology degree

Hmmm, you seem to be saying that your acquaintance [casual or otherwise] with "many cops" qualifies you to state the hiring and retention qualifications for EVERY police force in the United States.

In fact, the Chicago Police Department requires a college degree for current hires. In fact, you can see older police complaining about college educated police, whom they refer to as the "hair gel police", here: http://secondcitycop.blogspot.com

What sort of degree would you suppose someone wanting to be a police officer would pursue? Art History? Botany? Theoretical Physics?

I seem to come across a LOT of radio and TV commercials as well as email spams advertising college degrees for those seeking to work as police officers. What would you imagine would be the predominant degree type offered?

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

around here any degree isgood no degree required

 

[Citroen]

Thank you, Robert

Since I obviously misunderstood the purpose of this forum I attempted to take your advise. After two days of reading, however, I was no where near the end of your 1239 posts.

I concede, you really write well and, for the most part, present a refreshingly well reasoned argument for your point of view - often one with which I agree, not that it matters. I found some positively brilliant, but of course you already knew that!

Since I wanted to know the outcome of this potentially landmark case, and am not particularly interested in so many opinions or blogs, I chose a path that you did not suggest (which surprised me) and just joined VCDL. For a mere $30.00 I can get the steak without the bull.

Cheers,
JOhn
Charlotte, NC

 

[joab]

In fact, the Chicago Police Department requires a college degree for current hires. In fact, you can see older police complaining about college educated police, whom they refer to as the "hair gel police", here: http://secondcitycop.blogspot.com

Does Chicago set the hiring standards for Norfolk now?

What sort of degree would you suppose someone wanting to be a police officer would pursue? Art History? Botany? Theoretical Physics?

That wasn't the issue or question was it?
What sort of degree do you think Norfolk and most other PDs around the country require for it's recruits?
Here's a hint
You can get it in twelve years but you can quit early and get an equivlilancy degree

Hmmm, you seem to be saying that your acquaintance [casual or otherwise] with "many cops" qualifies you to state the hiring and retention qualifications for EVERY police force in the United States.

Nowhere habe I claimed to know the policies of every PD
I also have not tried to equate one PD, say Chicago, with another, say Norfolk.
Wanna guess how I know the educational requirements for Norfolk PD?
The same way I know that there is no criminology degree required as was erroneously stated.

Why do you believe that those who have attended a police training academy have a LESSER duty to know and obey the law than someone who HASN'T?

Maybe you can show me where that was part of the comment that I responded to
That my sweet way of asking you to actually read what you are commenting on

Norfolk's failure to fully comply with a FOIA request is also a known fact.

Is it?
So far I have only seen allegations of such

I wonder why someone would violate the law that way?

There are several legal reasons that a request can be refused
It's all in there website

 

[Deanimator]

There are several legal reasons that a request can be refused

Not unexpectedly, they have failed to elucidate any of them. But then if you were trying to obstruct justice, you probably wouldn't...

 

[joab]

How did they respond to your request?

 

[Deanimator]

How did they respond to your request?

They responded incompletely and suspiciously to Chet and the VCDL's request.

How'd they respond to yours?

 

[joab]

I'm not the one claiming that it is a "known fact" that they refused the request
Before something can be accepted as a "known fact" it must be supported with some type of evidence
How did they respond to your's again?

Can you provide link to their response to the VCDL?

 

[Elm Creek Smith]

Several years ago, the Tulsa Police Department began requiring new hire police officers to have a college degree. Now there is no requirement for that degree to be in criminal justice or some similar discipline, just a college degree. My next door neighbor is a Tulsa Police Officer, and his degree is in Education. (He was a teacher before he decided to become a police officer.)

ECS

 

[joab]

Norfolk's requirement is a GED

Anybody here know the Norfolk High Cheerleader song

 

[ArfinGreebly]

I'm Kinda Confused Here

Norfolk's PD education requirement is a GED?

They otherwise have no specific instruction in what laws they are to enforce?

So . . .

Exactly what laws are they supposed to enforce?

I mean, given that they don't actually know any laws -- or can at least allege they don't -- so, what . . . they just invent stuff to enforce?

I dunno.

I think a police force claiming not to have specific knowledge of a law they vigorously violate . . . probably a good thing I'm not mayor down there.

Now, if I had a law practice down that neck of the woods, and if my business was criminal defense, I'd be all over this in the local media.

"Yessir, I'm watchin' this case real close. I do believe these here poh-leese have hit on the best defense ever. If you can't prove someone actually KNEW the law, then they didn't really break it. Yup, this is gonna be the centerpiece of every case I try from now on."​

Plausible deniability.

One of my all-time favorites.

 

[gunsmith]

watch out Deananimator!

What sort of degree would you suppose someone wanting to be a police officer would pursue? Art History?

You may be arrested for impressionism of a Police Officer!

For a mere $30.00 I can get the steak without the bull.

Citroen throws down the Gauntlet, touché!

 

[Robert Hairless]

Citroen, I'm glad that I was able to entertain and enlighten you but I hope that your interrupted reading of my many educational contributions to this forum is more on the order of a comma or semicolon than a full stop. It is a body of work that more than one person has praised, although since my wife has been rather busy today there has been only one person giving it the praise it deserves.

I'm even happier that you took the obvious step of joining the VCDL so you can get updates frequently and become part of the solution to an ongoing problem instead of merely an observer or, worse, a denier. There are such, always and perhaps inevitably, and that is good because without them there would be no need for forums like this or for organizations such as the VCDL. It is unfortunate that you have been cowed by what you think is the bull, but it is good of you to contribute your understanding to this thread. Continue: social intercourse is one thing that separates man from the animals. Accessories are the other.

My work continues to give me great satisfaction. Autographs cost extra.

 

[gunsmith]

the challenge is taken, Robert scores a devastating blow!

It is unfortunate that you have been cowed by what you think is the bull

I mean, given that they don't actually know any laws -- or can at least allege they don't -- so, what . . . they just invent stuff to enforce?

I think Chet was arrested because some one was offended by open carry, I'm really offended by Barry Manilow & if he is ever in Norfolk I'm calling 911 STAT!

 

[Robert Hairless]

Arfin Greebly:

Of course no one here wishes to be unfair to Norfolk's finest. In that spirit we should recognize the following disqualification for recruits to Norfolk's police department:

3. Frequent use of marijuana, e.g., ten times within two years prior to the application date.

So it's okay for Norfolk police officers to have used marijuana as long as it was less than ten times within the two years prior to their application. There seems to be no restriction on their use of marijuana while they are Norfolk police officers, though, which you will agree is a most enlightened policy. A drug dealer who treats a Norfolk police officer unfairly risks the majesty of the law in that fair city. This is good. There also is the opportunity for a police officer to defend herself by saying "Hey, man, I was stoned when I done did it, or maybe I just got some bad weed."

 

[Leatherneck]

Frequent use of marijuana, e.g., ten times within two years prior to the application date.

Is that a fact, Robert? If so, I'm stunned. Speechless, really.

TC

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

its getting to be standard practice in other places too. not enough applicants

 

[joab]

Norfolk's PD education requirement is a GED?

They otherwise have no specific instruction in what laws they are to enforce?

I not sure if that is one of THRs patented twist attempts or a failure to follow the discussion

Somehow the only thing between a criminology degree and a GED is making things up as they go along?

I think a police force claiming not to have specific knowledge of a law they vigorously violate . . . probably a good thing I'm not mayor down there.

Perhaps you could point out any reference of the police force not knowing any better
We are talking about individuals officers who obviously acted in good faith by calling on their legal authority to clarify, presumably after their filed supervisor was unable to.
As such they do not deserve the ruination and federal jail time being called for
I always forget to reiterate my position frequently for those that join late and/or don't take the time to actually follow the conversation

Now also think about the mayor statement a little

Who do you think helped to push the ordinance through?
Obviously if one of us were mayor then this never would have happened would it be condescending if I put a duh in there

 

[Deanimator]

We are talking about individuals officers who obviously acted in good faith by calling on their legal authority to clarify, presumably after their filed supervisor was unable to.

Many people wouldn't consider torturing someone with handcuffs, "good faith".

And again, I choose to believe the word of the person (Chet) who DIDN'T break the law, as opposed to the those (the Norfolk Police officers) who did break the law.

Sueing the city accomplishes little. They knew the law was in itself unlawful to begin with. I'd gladly look any city official who claims otherwise in the eye and call him a liar to his face. If need be, they'll just raise taxes to pay any judgements. Then they'll just pass another null and void law, or continue to enforce this one. Ruin the police who engage in criminal acts by enforcing it, however and you won't find anyone else willing to do so. Apparently, the police union in Cleveland is much more proactive about looking after the welfare of the rank and file. Mayor Frank Jackson has threatened to unlawfully continue enforcing Cleveland's preempted "assault weapon" ban. As it turned out it was a totally impotent threat because the Cleveland FOP has instructed its members NOT to legally expose themselves by wilfully violating state law. Too bad for those Norfolk cops that their union wasn't looking out for THEM...

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Deanimator,
So you're saying that these officers are legally culpable and able to be sued in Civil proceedings for this matter?