For all who use a laser

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You could be absolutely right brownie..

I just thought of something though.

Say the ONLY thing that the laser did was add confidence to a shooter in his ablity to defend himself - maybe he doesn't even need the laser, but doesn't realize it... and if that's the case, but it makes someone feel more confident, then isn't it for all intents and purposes, just as much of an aid?

Just a thought... I'll probably end up disagreeing with myself in 5 minutes, but maybe there's something to the whole laser thing that we haven't even thought about.
 
The logical conclusion of the posts above is that a beginner should NOT be allowed to use a laser (and these are probably the people who think it is an answer to all of their problems).

1. They will almost certainly adopt a "point and sweep" technique. This in itself is bad. More seriously, if they rely on the "crutch" of a laser they will never graduate to an all purpose technique. Then what happens when the battery fails or the laser gets knocked out of position in a struggle?

2. Then, as Brownie says, if you are good enough that a laser only verifies a good aim, why use it?

3. Even if the laser is only used for verification it takes a fraction of a second to process the sight information. By then you may be too late.

I have never tried this but I would love to go "one on one" with a paintball outfit in a totally darkened room. Competition with laser, me without. The old eyes arn't as good as they used to be but I reckon I would come out much cleaner.

Another factor, I wear bi-focals and I point shoot. The laser would be no good to me at all if I lost my glasses in a struggle. I probably would not be able to see the dot at twenty feet but I bet you I could hit body mass point shooting.
 
Say the ONLY thing that the laser did was add confidence to a shooter in his ablity to defend himself - maybe he doesn't even need the laser, but doesn't realize it... and if that's the case, but it makes someone feel more confident, then isn't it for all intents and purposes, just as much of an aid?

I believe your hypothesis is valid and has merit. If the shooter is more confident with the laser on the gun, perhaps they should have it there. Confidence can be very important in not hesitating when there is no time to do so in SD situation when your own peril hangs in the balance.

The potential problem with the "aid" of the laser making someone more confident is that they may become too reliant and easily slip into the "verification" of the laser on threat, thereby taking the extra time thats not, in reality a necessary, but which in their mind is.

It can be a training tool, one that most should be weened off as soon as possible if it is used so it does not become their crutch, with all it's inherent possibilities of distraction, verification and ignoring their own abilities in the process.

Brownie
 
I beg to disagree. Did your rifle instructor never train you to "call" your shots rather than using a spotting scope yourself. One of the things he was doing was to increase your confidence in yourself by proving to you that you were capable of judging your own performance without aids.

Try this experiment. Take a trainee who is pretty competent at fairly rapid fire. Get them to shoot a target, say 6 rounds in 3 seconds. Then put a loose shirt over the target. In many cases you will see the trainee was unconciously marking the hits on the target and making corrections. When the trainee cannot see the hits because of the shirt the groups will often open up. For combat a shooter needs the confidence to know where the shots are going, almost by instinct.

Any aid that tries to provide this confidence before the trigger is pulled can only mean a delay in shooting. For example, what will happen if the laser dot is 4 inches left of centre rather than dead on? Are you going to teach the shooter to fire on the basis that any hit is good as long as he fires first or are you going to expect him to make that 4 inch correction on a target that may be turning or moving?
 
Sorry, tried to be too general. I disagree with the whole idea of verifying aim before firing.

Other factors being equal, such as no bullet proof vests, no adrenalin high, no dope, it is likely that the first shooter to score a hit wins - or at the very least has a major advantage. Nothing must delay those first two shots getting away. Any action taken to verify aim must cause a delay. Worse still would be the additional delay that could be caused by trying to get a too perfect picture.
 
Hmmm...

Hard to know exactly where I stand on this... The way I train makes it harder by far. Now FWIW, I've taught myself to shoot, by and large... A few books here, a couple articles there, some tips from Mr. X blacking out 3" targets at the range @ 50 yards with a .22lr pistol along the way...

So over the years, I've developed a technique of point-shooting that's very accurate for me. The laser seemed to prove that. However, instant target acquisition is NEVER a bad thing.

brownie, I'm very interested in your perspective... You say you train people to point-shoot, or at least I'm assuming that's what 'threat focused skills' are. So if the laser, used in the way I described, DOES in fact keep the focus on the threat, rather than the sights... well... isn't that a good thing?

Believe me, I agree with 99.5% of what you're saying, and the other .5% I'm just not sure about... I also agree with the crutch factor, because IMO many people use them incorrectly. I've seen people at the range do TERRIBLE shooting with lasers.. It's almost like "How do you f*** up THAT BAD with a damned dot that tells you where the bullet is going!?"

But ever since I did my little store test, there's been this hint of curiosity... Could it possibly help while the adrenaline is dumping, the tunnel vision's kickin' in and you need to make that split-second decision? I'm not sure. Then there's the confidence factor.

I will say this... If you can't shoot the middle of a silhouette target at 21 feet, a laser isn't going to do you any good... go hit the range n00bs! :D

But for those of us who train, and train hard - those of us who spend money we don't have getting to the range (definitely talking about myself on that one...) and have invested the time and money to be proficient with a pistol in an SD application.. We're a different story, aren't we?

I'm not so sure it's such a handicap in the hands of a truly capable person. Then again, as stated before, I don't own a laser system. It's just hard for me to see how a laser could ruin a competent shooter, unless he lets it become a crutch... which is entirely possible.
 
So if the laser, used in the way I described, DOES in fact keep the focus on the threat, rather than the sights... well... isn't that a good thing?

Staying focused on the threat, at the expense of that which takes more time to verify, negates the threat focused advantage IMO, which is gained by not waiting to verify any type of sighting system, including the laser.

You can easily learn to keep bullets where you want them, without looking at the gun, without having to use the method discussed here [ the laser ]. In the classes, some have so much time invested in sights shooting they have difficulty not reverting their attention back to the sights, then we tape the sights off the gun so they can't use them, and force them to rely on and use the threat focused skills they are learning.

The mind is the limiting factor, no more or less to the skills imparted in our Integrated Threat Focused Training Systems courses without any crutches whatsoever, and only relying on their own proprioceptive skills developed quickly in a day or two under guidance of the instructor.

Confidence comes from doing, repeating their performance over and over till the mind understands they can forget the focus on the gun and make the hits, all by using their own abilities they always had but did not know how to use, for the most part.

Go here for reviews of students of the ITFTS [ threat focused ] courses. None need aiming devices to attain the skills, and in the end, have no need to verify their pointing skills with any device like the laser other than their own successes of rds on threat in the end.
http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=19

It's just hard for me to see how a laser could ruin a competent shooter, unless he lets it become a crutch... which is entirely possible.

That possibility is ever present with the laser, and is negated entirely with our own training methods in the classes.

shooter503;

Good thought process on your part IMO, and well stated.

Brownie
 
Everyone is free to spend their money anyway they want. You only need to look to the shooting sports to see how well they work. In USPSA you go to open with a laser. In IDPA you can't use then at all because they know that for 99% of the shooters to have a chance of winning they would need to have a laser. Sure there are a few "masters" out there that could out shoot "experts" with a laser. But the truth is a lot more "experts" with lasers would be beating the "masters" without. That some may not like them, fine. It doesn't change the success they've found with military and police units.

A laser is aimed fired unlike point shooting. A red dot on target doesn't need a perfect draw to be there. A red dot on target doesn't need a solid "index" to the target. The red dot doesn't stop being really useful past 21 feet. Does having a laser mean you don't need to learn how to shoot? No. Does it mean you can stop practicing? No.

I'm not to old to see iron sights, yet. I shoot IDPA, USPSA and IHMSA. My skills are solid, for now. A laser is on every pistol I keep for self defense. Lasers work and well. Anyone who tells you they don't has something to sell or is a fool.
 
I have family in AZ... next time I plan a trip out there to see them, I want to take your class brownie... well, as long as it don't cost thousands and thousands of dollars, that is... :D albeit, that'll probably be a while, but I don't expect that you'll be giving up teaching anytime soon.

As for the lasers, it seems I'm at the end of my argument in favor of them, but I dunno. I still can't make it a handicap in my mind - not in the hands of a skilled shooter. I wouldn't mind having one just for the 'cool-factor', but I probably wouldn't even think about turning on a laser if I heard a bump in the night. Oh wait... I got one!

Lasergrips = PERFECT for hostage situations! :D

I know I wouldn't attempt to point-shoot a head shot if someone got ahold of my girlfriend (used her as example 'cuz that's the only person I live with... considering how she shoots, I dont think it's likely she'd end up anyone's hostage)... In fact, I think the only way I would feel comfortable taking that shot would be with a laser.

I know I'm reaching, but I gotta win at least one exchange here! :p
 
A laser is aimed fired unlike point shooting

Point shooting is aimed fire as well. You are just using an alternative sighting method.

The red dot doesn't stop being really useful past 21 feet.

Past 21 feet, we are getting out of the realm of the majority of SD shooting.

It doesn't change the success they've found with military and police units.

That success is in offensive use, not defensive use as found within a SD response. Two different sets of necessary skills.

edited to add:
You only need to look to the shooting sports to see how well they work. In USPSA you go to open with a laser.

I think you are confusing laser with red dots in the open classes. I've never heard of anyone using a laser in those competitions. If thats the case [ you are confused between the two ], it may explain your statement that pointshooting is not aiming as well. :D

Brownie
 
Lasergrips = PERFECT for hostage situations!

I don't know about perfect, but certainly they have a place in most offensive shooting situations like your example. In fact police use them in that capacity on ocassion.

I didn't suggest they were not beneficial in other areas of shooting situations.

When you are going to be out here in the free state of Az., give me a shout, we'll hook up.

Brownie
 
When you are going to be out here in the free state of Az., give me a shout, we'll hook up.
Click to expand...

Sure thing!

CTC Lasergrips... Well, now I have an excuse to buy a set... for offensive shooting - which, I have to admit, I like the sound of. :evil: I've wanted a pair for a while, but to be honest I only want them because I think they're cool... They look really good on Sigs too.

Hey... I know I'm shallow, but at least I admit it. :D

I've never really been a fan of them for most defensive situations I could think of. As mentioned before, I agree with the crutch theory. OTOH, I never gave ANY thought to one in an offensive capacity. Given my budget at the moment, it'll be a minute before I can get a set. But I think I might just have to put a set on one of these Sigs.. you know, just incase there's ever a need for some offensive shootin' around here. :p
 
3gun

"The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool". -
Shakespeare "As You Like It". ( Quote Act V, Scene I).

Since when did competition have anything to do with reality? Everytime anyone suggests a realistic training competition somebody else turns up and ruins it with multi-thousand dollar trick guns and restrictive rules.

Two examples of reality. Recently I was at a police range where an officer turned up with a pistol with laser. The officer proceeded to remove the laser to shoot at the targets. Go figure. Secondly, talking to the SWAT leader he told me they do not use lasers at night with multiple officers. Too much confusion with who owns which dot.

"Everyone is free to spend their money anyway they want." Sure, good luck to them. To the good guys "Have fun". Otherwise, the more baddies who buy laser rigs because of watching TV crime shows the safer I will feel.

To make a point on SheldonJ's original quote there is one factor to consider. A laser, mounted on a rail BELOW the barrel will adjust diffrently to iron sights mounted ABOVE the barrel. With the iron sights the bullet will cross the sight line twice. With a laser it will only cross the sight line once. This could cause confusion if you are looking a standard iron sight trajectory tables.
 
So point shooting is an OK alternative sighting method but a laser is a crutch? If you're getting hits on target why is one OK but not the other.

Past 21' SD shootings don't happen often so it's OK that the usefulness of your "sights" drop off rapidly with distance?

Offensive or defensive shooting different skills? Both need speed and hits to be effective. Truth is in most cases the rules for engagement for LEO's and soldiers can be more restrictive than lethal force use for citizens. How many states make you wait to be fired on or get the OK from HQ before you can defend yourself? The edge for them becomes even more important.

Why don't you see lasers in USPSA? Because red dots are faster than lasers, but try carrying one concealed. Why doesn't IDPA allow lasers? Because regardless how much your pistol cost most would need a laser to be competitive.

Again competition is about getting good hits as fast as possible. Lasers are fast. It's hard if not impossible to make any training realistic. How many people would put up with being sucker punched from behind so you had blurry vision from blood in your eyes when it came time to shoot?

So many here bash lasers saying all you need to do is practice or take their training but write off the idea of practice or training with the laser. Why? What are they selling? Lasers aren't an end all but to pass them off as a toy is a huge mistake.

I've shot low light, no light, weak hand only, no glasses, strong eye covered, etc. At no point was having a laser a handicap. At no time did the laser become less effective.
 
These internet connected computers are a gimmick.

All you really need to learn is how to make proper marks on paper like your parents and grandparents did with dependable pencils, fountain pens, and typewriters.

After all, power may fail... and then where's your cyber-crutch?

Put away the keyboard and stock up on carrier pigeons!


:p
 
It's clear that this is disintegrating into a 1911/45 versus Glock/9mm thread so I'm out of here.

One final thought. If your main armament goes down do you have a laser on your Raven?
 
So point shooting is an OK alternative sighting method but a laser is a crutch?

Pointshooting uses YOUR own ability, something that you can rely on at all times, something you don't have to put a battery in, something you don't have to add to every gun you are going to carry.

I'd say between the two, the laser is the crutch, yes.

Past 21' SD shootings don't happen often so it's OK that the usefulness of your "sights" drop off rapidly with distance?

I'll take using the sights anytome I can, but I won't die trying to get to them when they are not necessary in SD situations.

Offensive or defensive shooting different skills? Both need speed and hits to be effective

Yes, they are, and if you don't understand the difference between them, what can I say? I have both professional offensive [ swat, swat team leader and counter sniper certs ] as well as professional defensive [ Quick Kill, FAS ww2 skills, and Quick Fire training ] skills. I know when to use the different skills sets in both disciplines, for something like the last 13 years offensively and 25 years defensively.

Just as one example of the difference: In offensive skills, the guns are out and up into a ready position, the particpant has no need to draw a weapon, he's proactive.

In defensive skills, the gun is not out, has to be drawn, aimed, and fired [ all time consuming events that require speed of presentation and shots fired as the paricipant is reactive.

Big difference, don't you think?

Why don't you see lasers in USPSA? Because red dots are faster than lasers

Thats not the reason why, it's because most shooters can shoot faster than they can find a red dot superimposed on a threat. If you have information that supports your hypothesis, lets here it.

Why doesn't IDPA allow lasers? Because regardless how much your pistol cost most would need a laser to be competitive.

Really? I don't think so.

So many here bash lasers saying all you need to do is practice or take their training but write off the idea of practice or training with the laser.

I haven't written off using a laser for training, I did however explain the pitfalls of training with one that someone could fall victim to. Big difference.

I've shot low light, no light, weak hand only, no glasses, strong eye covered, etc. At no point was having a laser a handicap.

You would have to have ALL the other skills to be able to make that statement with any authority. If you have professional training in offensive and defensive skills, have been trained in a known threat focused methodology, have proven to be able to use your sights with precision accuracy [ I have in the Marine Corps ], lets hear about your certifications and your experiences.

I've also shot low light, no light, weak hand only, no glasses, glasses, both eyes closed, etc. At no point were any of those skills a handicap due to NOT having a laser either.

Your point sir?

shooter503;

It's to be expected.

Brownie
 
Easy now guys! This is getting a little combative :confused:

The laser is just an alternative tool for quick acquisition. I put mine on a 629 for home defense, with a dim light scenario in mind. It is sighted to 20 feet ( the distance from my bedroom to the front door). My follow up shots at the range where quick AND accurate.

No, a laser is not a substitute for fast draw, "point and shoot." It does just what I said it does. Its a handy tool for low light acquisition. If I have to draw on one of our local, and "still at large", murderers on the hiking trails, I won't have time to use the laser.
 
The laser is just an alternative tool for quick acquisition

Quicker for some and slower for others with different skills and training/time on guns. But you are right, a tool, not a skill.

I put mine on a 629 for home defense, with a dim light scenario in mind

44 mag for home defense?:eek: I think the laser might be beneficial in that role at times, and other times be a two edged sword announcing your arrival/movement to investigate. If you catch an intruder with one on your gun, you may have the opportunity to use it as an intimidator as well, again a two edged sword and totally dependant on the circumstances of when and how you catch the perp in the home.

I'll rely on my surfire, the harries as well as other techniques with the light and rely on the gun to be the intimidator when necessary.

If they don't think I'll shoot them because they don't see a laser on their chest and think I might miss, thats going to be a fatal mistake on their part when they challenge and test that opinion.:D

As the laser can not be used to ID the threat, there is enough ambient light to do that initially or you are still going to need light of some kind as well as the laser. One tool, not two, keeps it so much more simplisitic and less to think about IMO.

Brownie
 
I Would Base My Zero for the Laser on the Caliber and Intended Use

Hi Sheldon,

I would vary the zero of my laser sight depending on the gun and the intended use of the laser.

For example, if I mounted it to a handgun chambered for an extremely flat shooting cartridge like the .357 Magnum where the laser's zero would be fairly consistent over a longer range I would be more inclined to zero the laser for a slightly longer range (e.g., 25 yards) as living in Texas a longer shot is not an unrealistic possibility with out flat terrain.

If on the other hand the handgun was chambered for a low velocity caliber like say a pocket pistol in .380 ACP or .32 ACP I would be more inclined to use a much closer zero like the 7 yards mentioned earlier.

When I got my first laser sight last year I put it on my S&W .41 Magnum and took it to an indoor range where I could experiment with an almost unlimited number of marked ranges to see what a 7-yard group looked like with a 25-yard zero for the laser sight. I simply made a note of how high the bullet impacted at close range while I still retained the option of using the laser sight at longer ranges.

To me, the laser is a niche item. I usually keep it turned off, but for situations where I could not take a proper firing stance, cannot view the sights clearly, or want the intimidation value of the laser it is a nice option to have.
 
Point shooting, laser sighting and iron sighting are all viable methods of self defense shooting....with lasers being the superior sight system from awkward/concealed/unconventional positions, indoors, low light and darkness.

Unlike point shooting, laser sights are extremely accurate...pinpoint accurate even out to great handgun distance. And they are, indeed, an intimidation factor.
Lasers are a 21st century blessing for those without their eyeglasses and those with weak or old eyes.

But the most valuable asset of the laser sight is the ability to 'threat focus' and simultaneously superimpose the POI (the dot) on the threat.
This 'works' when peripheral vision sighting unpreventably fails because of stress induced tunnel vision.
.
 
Lasers can not ID a threat, so relying on it in "darkness" is moot. It's pretty much been determined they have their place in some situations here and elsewhere.

Relying on the laser [ a tool ] exclusively over real skills training is not preferrable when they are unnecessarily slower. If one does not have real skills to be able to place the bore on the threat without one, that person could well benefit from them.

If one needs to find the POI with a laser to put a bore on threat, they are lacking skills that can be obtained through proper training and practice. Those people, like yourself, who admittedly have not practiced enough with a handgun in the last 20 years to be able to do this, will benefit in their use and will become ever more reliant on them.

Not all peripheral vision skills are lost under stress. If that were true, the defenders direct vision would only be able to see something as small as a laser dot which we know to be incorrect. With certain threat focused skills taught in the classes, the range of peripheral vision is within 2-4 inches of line of sight, well within the range of tunnel vision should it ocurr under stress.

To take it one step further, in the case of the laser, if you were threat focused and lost all of your peripheral vision, you'd take an interminable amount of time trying to find the laser dot with just direct vision, and I don't believe thats happening with your lasered shooting, you still see peripherally.

Statistics prove the fight is over in seconds, there'll likely not be any time to try to intimidate, or the perp to be intimidated when the gun is pulled in self defense and used. Now, threatening to use your laser guided handgun to intimidate is another matter altogether. Then again, the stats show that if a gun is presented for SD, the percentages are extremely high it will not have to be used anyway, thereby giving more substance to the gun itself being an intimidator on the streets, and the laser not really entering the equation to up those percentages much, if any at all.

Brownie
 
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I'll relate this for the members where poor eye sight and the laser is concerned.

One of our students was 88-89 yrs old and used a snub with a laser exclusively for a few years prior to. He has vision problems, can't pick up the sights at all but can see well enough with corrected vision at distance.

In a few hours of training, he was making two shots on threat before he could find the laser. He had been shown if you can see the threat, you can hit the threat without looking at the gun or sights, out to 30 feet.

He no longer relies on that laser of his. It slows him down in getting the bore on threat and pulling the tirgger when time is of the essence. His vision is poor, he needs a cane to sustain balance, and he can now pull his snub or sig239 and put rds on threat immediatley if he can see the threat.

Just one example of developing real physical skills that are always going to be there in lieu of reliance on some mechanical/electrical device which may or may not be there when you need it, and is slower than his own natural abilities with the proper training.

Weened off the tool, and now knows and can use his own abilities. Hand him a gun, any gun within reason, no laser? No problem. His skills go where he goes and were proven to be superior in speed on threat than the laser.

For those who might think, well, he didn't know how to use the laser correctly, or anything along those lines, I would profer this: In hours of threat focused skills training he was faster on threat, and not just marginally, than practicing with the laser for two years.

Brownie
 
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