Bitrclngr
Member
Powder was a round flake type. The odor coming off of it was so bad that I could smell the ammo from 8ft away before I pulled them apart. The powder was a dull gray and some was clumped together.
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Made me think about all my 30.06 military ammo.
Had some of the canisters for 20+ years maybe more.
I do have a routine every 6 months I roll the cans over on every side kind of hard &
shake them some, not violently just to make the powder at least move.
Then every year I empty every case & restack them sort of like rotating tires.
It may not help keep the ammo fresh but at least it is an effort to do so.
This habit is recommended for RETIRED MEMBERS only.
Had some of the canisters for 20+ years maybe more.
I do have a routine every 6 months I roll the cans over on every side kind of hard &
shake them some, not violently just to make the powder at least move.
Then every year I empty every case & restack them sort of like rotating tires.
It may not help keep the ammo fresh but at least it is an effort to do so.
This habit is recommended for RETIRED MEMBERS only.
Robbins290
Member
What is the "pull and smell" test? what would i smell for? I have never heard of that before?
That refers to pulling a bullet and sniffing the powder. If it has an acetone-like smell it's typically good. But if it has an acidic or "off" smell it is deteriorating. @Slamfire has provided this forum with tons of good data on the subject. The bottom line is that powder has a shelf life and CAN deteriorate, although the particular batch a person fires may not exhibit any issues.
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This is one of my favorite posts about a blowup due to old, WW2 ammunition. The sellers of old ammunition never warn about this,do they? But then, they don't have any liability. You have the liability. Ignorance and denial do not provide immunity from nature. And given enough tries, your luck will run out.
Garand Blowup with old US ammunition.
http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?p=1344088
There was a thread on another forum titeled “What’s in your ammo can” and many guys had old surpluss ammo so I told this story. Ty (arizonaguide) asked that I come put it here also so here it is boys, draw your own conclutions.
Back in the mid 80s my Dad and a bunch of us went shooting in Arizona. Dad had a couple thousand rounds of WWII surplus .30M1 (30-06) ammo that looked great on the outside cut his M1 in half in his hands. He was kneeling with elbow on knee when the first round of this ammo went BOOM! We were all pelted with sand and M1 shrapnel.
When the dust cleared Dad was rolling around on his back with buttstock in one hand, for stock in the other, barrel and receiver hanging by the sling around his arm trying to yell “mortar” thinking he was back on Okinawa in battle. The blast had removed his ear muffs, hat, glasses, and broke the headlight in my truck 15 feet away but Dad was only shook up and scratched a bit once he got his wits back. It sheared off the bolt lugs, blew open the receiver front ring, pushed all the guts out the bottom of the magazine, and turned the middle of the stock to splinters.
After a couple hours of picking up M1 shrapnel we headed to the loading bench and started pulling bullets. Some of the powder was fine, some was stuck together in clumps, and some had to be dug out with a stick. It didn’t smell and was not dusty like powder usuley is when it’s gone bad. Put it in a pie tin and light it and it seemed a tad fast but not so you would think it could do that, wasent like lighting a pistol powder even. He had 2000 rounds of this stuff and nun of us were in any mood to play with it much after what we watched so it all went onto a very entertaining desert bon fire. I got the M1 splinters when Dad died last year and will post pix here below for your parousal and entertainment.
Anyway, I no longer play with any ammo I am not 100% sure has always been stored properly . . . cheap shooting ain’t worth the risk to me anymore! I still buy surpluss if the price in right but I unload and reload it with powder I am sure of or just use the brass.
She was a good shooting servasable Winchester M1 before this.
Garand Blowup with old US ammunition.
http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?p=1344088
There was a thread on another forum titeled “What’s in your ammo can” and many guys had old surpluss ammo so I told this story. Ty (arizonaguide) asked that I come put it here also so here it is boys, draw your own conclutions.
Back in the mid 80s my Dad and a bunch of us went shooting in Arizona. Dad had a couple thousand rounds of WWII surplus .30M1 (30-06) ammo that looked great on the outside cut his M1 in half in his hands. He was kneeling with elbow on knee when the first round of this ammo went BOOM! We were all pelted with sand and M1 shrapnel.
When the dust cleared Dad was rolling around on his back with buttstock in one hand, for stock in the other, barrel and receiver hanging by the sling around his arm trying to yell “mortar” thinking he was back on Okinawa in battle. The blast had removed his ear muffs, hat, glasses, and broke the headlight in my truck 15 feet away but Dad was only shook up and scratched a bit once he got his wits back. It sheared off the bolt lugs, blew open the receiver front ring, pushed all the guts out the bottom of the magazine, and turned the middle of the stock to splinters.
After a couple hours of picking up M1 shrapnel we headed to the loading bench and started pulling bullets. Some of the powder was fine, some was stuck together in clumps, and some had to be dug out with a stick. It didn’t smell and was not dusty like powder usuley is when it’s gone bad. Put it in a pie tin and light it and it seemed a tad fast but not so you would think it could do that, wasent like lighting a pistol powder even. He had 2000 rounds of this stuff and nun of us were in any mood to play with it much after what we watched so it all went onto a very entertaining desert bon fire. I got the M1 splinters when Dad died last year and will post pix here below for your parousal and entertainment.
Anyway, I no longer play with any ammo I am not 100% sure has always been stored properly . . . cheap shooting ain’t worth the risk to me anymore! I still buy surpluss if the price in right but I unload and reload it with powder I am sure of or just use the brass.
She was a good shooting servasable Winchester M1 before this.
edwardware
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The Ammonia-ish smell is bad, ditto acrid or acidic.
None or an acetone or non-polar solvent smell is normal. Appearance may be a better guide if you aren't familiar with the smell; clumpy, green, brown, or reddish dust is bad, as is anywhere the powder is eating the brass from the inside.
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Oops good catch. I had acetone on the tip of my fingers and ammonia came out instead.
Amazing that your Dad escaped serious injury! And judging by what was left it had been a correct WRA rifle, to boot.
I'll probably still shoot the M2 ball I have left, or not, as I have had it stored in AC room for over 20 years, but if I do, I'm sure I'll jerk the first round
thinking of your excellent information, Slamfire. Thank you.Regards,
hps
I believe Slamfire was merely quoting another post from another forum. The fact remains that there is a high chance surplus ammo wasn't always stored in optimal conditions. On top of that, age itself can cause powders to break down resulting in the story above.Amazing that your Dad escaped serious injury! And judging by what was left it had been a correct WRA rifle, to boot.
I'll probably still shoot the M2 ball I have left, or not, as I have had it stored in AC room for over 20 years, but if I do, I'm sure I'll jerk the first round
Regards,
hps
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Bitrclngr
Member
Looks like a complete case head failure on that M1. I personally don't shoot the older surplus in semi auto rifles. I regularly shoot ammo from the 30s and some even older, but only in bolt action rifles with good gas venting capabilities. I have a couple hundred rounds of loose 1918 dated US Cartridge company 3006 that does still fire reliably out of a 1917 Enfield. The oldest ammo I've personally fired was made in 1887. This was black powder obviously which doesn't deteriorate over time like smokeless.
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The case head is the weakest part of the system. That brass case is only made out of.....(wait for it)....BRASS!. The ultimate strength of quarter hard cartridge brass is 44,000 psi.
Now while it is certain the case head blew, a detonation event, which this surely was, blew more than just the case head.
The shooting is largely ignorant of the evils of old gunpowder, in fact in the popular press, the shooting community has been told that gunpowder is essentially immortal and if it fails, it fails benignly. This is so far from the truth that what those marketeers put out should be called magical thinking. Old gunpowder is awful stuff and it gets worse with age.
When it gets to this condition it surely will blow your gun up
And when it gets to this condition, in bulk, it will burn your house up!
Bitrclngr
Member
I would be surprised if the above cartridges fired at all but apparently it sometimes can! I pulled apart several hundred rounds of 1913 7mm Mauser in similar condition and just for the hell of it try to set the primers off. They had been destroyed by the acid from the deteriorating powder. Corrosion on the inside of the case and abnormal burnrate of the powder could/would catastrophic case failure.(like that M1) I've seen pictures of semi auto rifles that failed from just a split head. Blown up Hakim's and FN 49s. A good reason why one should closely examine old ammo while shooting.
It boggles my mind that someone would even attempt to fire a cartridge like those in slamfires post. I've personally never seen bulk powder as bad as that pictured above. Nor do I want to!
There are so many different factor regarding the longevity of smokeless power. I've seen 7.65 Mauser dated 1893 with powder that showed no signs of deterioration( I did not fire it but did light some) and ww2 3006 that was like the cartridges above. Storage and how well the powder was manufactured are the two big ones. I'll repeat it again be carful with old ammo and do your research.
Another thing to watch for on old ammo is split brass, usually at the neck. The bullets can sometimes be loose. One could chamber a round and inadvertently push the bullet down inside the case compressing the powder. You will have a bad day if this happens!
It boggles my mind that someone would even attempt to fire a cartridge like those in slamfires post. I've personally never seen bulk powder as bad as that pictured above. Nor do I want to!
There are so many different factor regarding the longevity of smokeless power. I've seen 7.65 Mauser dated 1893 with powder that showed no signs of deterioration( I did not fire it but did light some) and ww2 3006 that was like the cartridges above. Storage and how well the powder was manufactured are the two big ones. I'll repeat it again be carful with old ammo and do your research.
Another thing to watch for on old ammo is split brass, usually at the neck. The bullets can sometimes be loose. One could chamber a round and inadvertently push the bullet down inside the case compressing the powder. You will have a bad day if this happens!
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Bitrclngr
Member
Here are some pictures of the 7mm ammo. The bullets cleaned up better than I thought they would. Shoot decently as well.
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D.B. Cooper
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For those of you looking for accouterments for your Garand, check out www.atthefront.com (At The Front, or ATF). They make authentic-looking, top quality reproduction WWII militaria for living history enthusiasts (reenactors). I have their leather 1907 sling on my Garand, as well as a couple of their rigger's pouches (ammo carriers), and I'm about to buy some stuff for my cmp 1911. I also wear some of their uniform parts (wool) in the winter. (It's the cheapest way to buy wool clothing.) A lot of their stuff is USA made in their shop in Kentucky. And no, I don't have any affiliation with them other than as a customer.
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