Found on Glock Talk Forum:Slide Slam on 1911

[Zach S]

It happens, occasionally. It happened a few times when I had the extended slide stop on my Kimber Polymer (I shoot high thumb - my fault, not the part's), mag springs and plastic followers get worn, ect. But IMO its needless abuse and I dont do it intentionally. If you do it to yours, thats fine. Let me know that you do so if you're trying to sell it to me though. Dont worry, there seems to be enough slide slammers here that will buy it since I wont.

Oh, IIRC WC says its a no-no.

 

[1911Tuner]

Impact: A Study

A cut and paste that I posted on another forum:
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'Twas asked:

The resistance caused by chambering a round creates some deceleration, is it enough to matter, in terms of whether the damage threshold is crossed?
________________________

Yes...and the amount is substantial. Read on.

Some years back, I had an old pistol that was ready for a rebuild, so I decided to conduct an experiment with it.

I began by using cold rolled stock to make a substitute for the slidestop pin, and fire the gun in 50-round test lots to determine how much impact was absorbed during a live-feed return to battery vs an empty slam.
Two pins were made for each test.

50 rounds revealed no deforming of the soft steel...but the pins were peened badly by dropping the slide on empty in as little as 12 cycles.
By 20 cycles, the pin was all but useless.

Going further, I drilled out the center on the pins in increments of .0156 inch...1/64th...and retesting. These holes were drilled undersized and reamed to exact dimension. By the time I had drilled a full 3/16ths
hole in each of the pins, the empty slam was destroying them in 2 or 3 cycles. The same pins continued to function during live-fire for up to 200 rounds..with minimal deformation. Understand that removing 3/16ths inch from the center of a .200 diameter pin would leave about .025 inch of wall thickness...a shell about 6 times the thickness of a sheet of 20-bond paper.

Assuming that your trigger group/fire control group hasn't been dinked with...the damage incurred is most severe at the lower lug feet. The slidestop crosspin is fairly well over-engineered and well-supported.
The lower lug feet aren't designed to absorb the repeated impact stress of a 16-ounce slide propelled by a 16-pound coil spring.

There's also the matter of the slidestop pin holes in the frame. Ever seen a pistol with the holes elongated toward the front? I have...and in guns that weren't all that old. Guess what causes that. Yep...Impact.

Take two hammers and slap the faces together with the same force
about 30 or 40 times and you will soon start to see the results of steel to steel impact...and the barrel lug is much softer than the hammer heads.

 

[Bill Z]

What is the benefit of slamming the slide home at a plate match? What is their reason for this? There has to be a reason that slamming it home is better than riding it down, but for the life of me I cannot figure that one out. I can see why the trigger needs to be pulled and the hammer allowed to fall freely to insure there is no round chambered, but slamming the slide is stupid and I cannot imagine a group of grown men tolerating this. Me-thinks you missed something. If not, I've got to come out and see this 'plate match' when I visit my sister in Auburn.

BTW, I could give a tinkers damn what anyone does with their pistol as long as it's not pointed in an unsafe direction, go ahead and slam the slides, your car doors, house doors, etc..., just send me the pistols for repair, I want to retire early.

 

[1911Tuner]

What's the Point?

Bill Z asked:

What is the benefit of slamming the slide home at a plate match? What is their reason for this?
_____________________

Just guessin'...It looks SO cool and macho! Makes the shooters appear to be
rough'n' ready to the uninformed spectators.

Still just guessin'...'Cause the promoters of the match really don't understand... Either they don' t know...Don't show...or flat just don't give a fat rat's backside what's goin' on in the gun.
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Bill said:

Go ahead and slam the slides, your car doors, house doors, etc..., just send me the pistols for repair, I want to retire early.
______________________

Yeah baby! That's whut'm talkin' bout! You'll enjoy retirement...I do!

 

[Double Naught Spy]

When it comes to Colt, I am dubious about a lot of things that are posted that supposedly come from Colt. Just why wasn't the supposed intelligent person at Colt actually named? Either the information is phony, or because there is no way to verify the actual call and Colt isn't coming forward and putting such statements in print, it can't be considered to be definitive statements from Colt.

 

[OF]

Well, Tuner's above experiment petty much puts the answer to this one. Unless someone has another experiment handled with that kind of detail that refutes his findings, I'd say this is over.

Well done, Tuner, and thanks for taking the time to do that experiment.

- Gabe

PS: And nobody is saying that you're going to destroy your pistol by slamming the slide home a couple times. The point is that repeated abuse of that kind will likely be damaging and is not recommended. So lets drop the silly 'well if your pistol is that delicate maybe you shouldn't be wearing it' straw-man.

 

[Baba Louie]

My Dad was a machinist and a gunsmith, hence he knew metal and firearms. I was NEVER allowed to release the slide unimpeded. Peening. I cringe whenever I see or hear someone do it.
Colt is in the business of doing what? Selling their wares?
Gunsmiths are in the business of doing what? Fixing said wares?

 

[45auto]

I believe in the Colt manual it does detail dropping the slide on an empty chamber after disassembly and assembly. It's a safety check for the hammer following.

Of course, along with many other "legal" and cautious "stuff".

I mention this not to say it's okay, simply that Colt did have it writing, at least in my manual. Someone else here MUST have a Colt manual hanging around...all dusty and such.

 

[Guns_and_Labs]

But it DOES sound cool, kind of like a blacksmith hammerforging a blade in one blow...which I guess is the point of those that advise against doing it.

And isn't Colt the company whose solution to frames cracking on Delta Elites is to cut out the part of the frame that cracks?

 

[Rimmer]

Senior Member

Tiz' perfectly O.K. to drop the slide on an empty chamber and let it slam home. So go right ahead and do it .....

The Old Fuff however is smart enough to know that when parts slam they can batter. Not that they will, but that they can.

Old Fuff got it right, I guess if you only shoot your firearm occasionally ... no big deal.
However, if you’re at the range 3 or 4 times a week you'd be "dropping the slide, empty" multiple times. Probably not the best idea.

(I actually crinkled a barrel lug a few years ago. Custom shop said it was caused by fatigue)

Hey! It's your firearm, you paid for it, do whatever you want. Just don't complain when your CCW fails you in that rare time of need.


Edit: As an after thought..... If I'm not mistaken, Colt and their employees are interested in selling guns.

 

[Brian D.]

Jammer Six:

Were the rules of your Falling Plate Match originally brought down from Mt. Rainier on stone tablets or something? At all the various types of Action Shooting I've participated in for 20+ years (as a competitor, RO, match director, whathaveya), we've always allowed folks so inclined to let their slide go forward gently when unloading and showing clear. The important aspect was for the range officer to ascertain that the firearm was indeed empty before allowing the reholstering process to go any further. You don't need to slam the slide shut as part of the equation.
Old Fuff, I fully understand the mechanics of holding the trigger back while letting the slide go forward. However, most ROs and match directors with a background in Action Shooting (where speed and movement are often necessitated) as opposed to "static" games such as Bullseye, will have a reaction somewhere between the vapors and a conniption fit when observing this practice. And after some reflection, I agree with the notion of this being a rather BAD habit for Action Shooters to engage in.

 

[Jammer Six]

Were the rules of your Falling Plate Match originally brought down from Mt. Ranier on stone tablets or something?

Nope.

I used to let the slide drop because the range officer wanted me to.

Now I let it drop because I want to.

If you want to bow to your weapon, or create habits for the service of your gun, be my guest.

My weapons serve me, and when they fail to serve me because of the service I've demanded of them, I repair them or replace them, and start the cycle over.

Dave Sample has this one right, and I want to be just like him.

 

[buzz_knox]

If you want to bow to your weapon, or create habits for the service of your gun, be my guest.

Do you subordinate yourself to the weapon by cleaning it or do you demand that it function even after thousands of rounds worth of gunk?

If your weapon fails due to your negligence, do you blame it or yourself?

 

[rbernie]

If you want to bow to your weapon, or create habits for the service of your gun, be my guest. My weapons serve me, and when they fail to serve me because of the service I've demanded of them, I repair them or replace them, and start the cycle over.

This is certainly one approach to the problem. I hope that your pistols never break when you really need 'em.

I presume that you buy a new/rebuilt car engine every 15,000 miles, since you probably don't change the oil in it. After all, can't be seen as serving the car instead of the car serving you - right?

 

[Bill Z]

I used to let the slide drop because the range officer wanted me to.

Now I let it drop because I want to.

If you want to bow to your weapon, or create habits for the service of your gun, be my guest.

That sounds almost zen like, ..................if it weren't such a rediculous statement.

Do you drive over curbs in your automoblie regularly. Do you not avoid potholes in the road with your automobile? It's a matter of respecting and taking care of your equipment, not bowing down to it. Hell, it's a hunk of iron not an entity that has to be mastered.

Does your theroy also transend to maintaining your firearm? It sounds an aweful lot like those peple that brag about going 1 or 2k without cleaning. Can the pistol do it? Sure. Is it a smart thing to do? Absoloutly not. I've never know a professional to carry a firearm in harms way that would even consider carrying a dirty, abused, or poorly maintained firearm.

Now, lets get to brass tacks on this. If everything is just right in the pistol I'm sure it can take a fair amount of abuse with no ill affects, hell, they are a machine that endure repeated explosions and violent mechanical actions. Now, you just have to have faith that the minimum wage assembler is able to keep all of the critical dimensions within spec's measured in thousanths.

I'm gonna make one of those plate matches next year, I gotta hear the talk around the tables there, just gotta.




Hmmmm, how'd I get on the opposite side of Dave and on John's side on this one? Oh, independant thought, I'm not thinking or doing something just bacause someone wanted me too or go all zen about it.

 

[Brian D.]

rbernie, a more appropriate car analogy might be starting it up on -10 degree days, pulling out into traffic, and revving it up to 5,000 rpm or so within the first 10 seconds afterward, just because the manufacturers of today say that it shouldn't hurt anything to drive it without a warm up period.

 

[1911Tuner]

Serving or Service

Amazing thought process.

The 1911 is designed to feed ammunition...Period. If ammunition isn't present during the cycle, the gun isn't operating as designed. Whenever you force any machine to operate outside of its design parameters, you are
overstressing some part of that machine. You're forcing it to do something that it was never intended to do. Try planting your foot on the loud pedal of your grocery-getter in second gear and holding it there for a hundred miles. Betcha don't get there. Wanna bet?

Any machine that is used requires service. Cleaning and maintenence...
lubrication and inspection, etc. It's just good practice, assuming that you actually expect it to work...but it's not serving the machine. It's simply common sense and common knowledge that if a machine is neglected, it will probably let you down. Are you serving your teeth because you have them cleaned twice a year? Do you open bottles with your teeth just because you can?

Abuse is another way to increase the odds that the machine will fail. A
rancher's horse serves him...but he doesn't beat the horse...at least not if he expects the horse to refrain from killing him without warning. My dogs serve me...but I don't abuse the dogs. Refraining from abuse isn't serving. It's common sense. I don't abuse my weapons. Not because I believe that they're delicate...but because I simply don't abuse machinery. It's expensive,
and I don't relish the idea of replacing expensive equipment prematurely and unnecessarily.

Allowing the slide to slam to battery is abuse...the same as flicking a revolver cylinder open and closed. What amazes me is the people who cringe when they see that, yet will never give a second thought to letting that heavy slide go on a 1911...and believe in their hearts that it's not going to
do ANY harm. One need only look at those relatively small lug feet and understand that they are the ONLY thing that stops the slide when they hit the slidestop pin. The pin is over-engineered, and it's cheap to replace.
Barrels are a little more involved and a lot more expensive.

But...I suggest that the skeptical amongst us to let it happen about 200 times on a brand-spankin new gun...and then have the lower lug magnafluxed at the front where it joins the barrel. When you see all those tiny lines that look like spider webs, radiating from the junction into the lug, know that you are looking at stress fractures that haven't broken through to the surface yet. They will though...Cracks travel, and they'll only stop when they run out of material to travel in...when they break out into thin air.

Go try it...Sleep well knowing that the next round could be the last one.

Cheers!

Tuner<----outta here.

 

[baker]

Not that I really care, but this is just too funny, JammerSix!

It's your "Beloved Milspec." (quoted from other posts) SLAM SLAM SLAM SLAM...

I'd hate to see how you treat it after the honeymoon is over!



BTW, Dan Wesson says not to slam the empty slide of their 1911's, in the manual. I bet if I called them they'd say the same thing

 

[Jammer Six]

But...I suggest that the skeptical amongst us to let it happen about 200 times on a brand-spankin new gun...and then have the lower lug magnafluxed at the front where it joins the barrel. When you see all those tiny lines that look like spider webs, radiating from the junction into the lug, know that you are looking at stress fractures that haven't broken through to the surface yet. They will though...Cracks travel, and they'll only stop when they run out of material to travel in...when they break out into thin air.

I'll do it, Old Man.

I'll have the lower lug 'fluxed as soon as I find a place that won't freak out when they realize what I have in my hand.

There's two problems with this logic that everyone here is ignoring- I don't know why.

The first is that reading one side of a ledger is a fool's errand.

If the ledger says that you're spending $150,043 a month for electricity, you could be in trouble. Or not. There's no way to tell from only that side of the ledger- you need to know what balances it, and you need to know if you got what you paid for, if you needed it, and if you made money from it.

The other problem is that you need to have a baseline to compare it to.

'Fluxing my barrel could show cracks, and that could be bad.

Or not. It's only one side of the ledger, and without a baseline to compare it to, it's only a fool's picture.

You also have to flux a barrel that has an equal (or at least close) number of rounds through it, that has never had the slide dropped empty.

Neither picture is significant by themselves. What would be significant would be the difference between them.

Old Man, if you've based your opinion on a 'flux of a barrel, without a baseline to compare it, you've been chasing an illusion. You have to 'flux a barrel that has seen the same amount of action as your victim, and then base your opinion on the difference.

Going back to the other side of the ledger analogy, what you're saying is the same thing as saying that the Marines took 3,301 casualties on Tarawa, including 904 enlisted and 57 officers KIA or who died later of their wounds, 29 missing and presumed dead, and 2,200 enlisted and 111 officers wounded.

(Stockman, James R. The Battle for Tarawa. Washington, DC: Historical Section, HQ, USMC, 1947.)

A terrible toll. We never should have done it.

Oh, wait, there's another side of the ledger, isn't there?

What did we get, for that terrible price?

We got Tarawa. It was worth it. No question about it.

The ledger balance changes, depending on circumstances. One side, your 'flux side, can stay the same, but the other side can and does change.

The same casualty count as Tarawa would result in political disaster if it happened in a training exercise off San Diego.

You have to have a baseline, and you have to read both sides of the ledger, and then you can decide if it's worth it. Without either one of those things, what you have is an opinion that's worth, well, about the same as a post on a gunboard.

Back up what you say, 'Tuner. Post the 'fluxes you've had taken of barrels that have never had the slide dropped empty.

Then I'll run right out and have a 'flux done on my plate gun, my beloved milspec, and I'll post the results right next to yours, and I'll stand down if I'm wrong.

Imitation being the sincerest form of flattery,

Cheers!

 

[1911Tuner]

Takin' Sides

Bill said:

Hmmmm, how'd I get on the opposite side of Dave and on John's side on this one?
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Zollo...I fear that we are attempting to plow a furrow in the sea, old chap.
People who have their minds made up rarely have any further learning experiences until it's too late.

"There are three kinds of people. Them that learn by doin' and them that learn by readin'. Then there's them that's gotta go whizz on the electric fence for themselves." --Will Rogers--

Cheeeeeeeeeeers!

 

[macman37]

It may not hurt anything...

and it may hurt stuff.

But you won't see me dropping the slide/bolt full-force on the empty chamber on any of my toys.

 

[Old Fuff]

Brian D.

>>Old Fuff, I fully understand the mechanics of holding the trigger back while letting the slide go forward. However, most ROs and match directors with a background in Action Shooting (where speed and movement are often necessitated) as opposed to "static" games such as Bullseye, will have a reaction somewhere between the vapors and a conniption fit when observing this practice. And after some reflection, I agree with the notion of this being a rather BAD habit for Action Shooters to engage in. <<

Let's play that again: What I said was:

>> Therefore I suggest that if it is allowed, and after you have removed the magazine and checked to be sure the chamber is empty<<

I was well aware that what I suggested might not be allowed, and so qualified my suggestion, which was:

>> -- hold the trigger back while you release the slide. This will prevent the hammer from following down - or at least it should. If it doesn't you have a potentially serious problem. When the slide has returned to battery release the trigger. <<

Notice that this procedure wouldn't be followed until:

>> -- after you have removed the magazine and checked to be sure the chamber is empty. <<

And I offered the following option if my first suggestion wouldn't be acceptable:

>> As an alternative, hold the hammer with the tip of your thumb while you drop the slide. <<

For the following reason:

>> This will at least protect your sear and hammer from damage. <<

Plate shooters are generally not known for favoring heavy trigger pulls and deep hammer hooks/sear engagement. If a competitor's pistol had been visually examined and the magazine was removed and the chamber empty (and of course the muzzle pointed in a safe direction downrange) there would seem to be little hazzard from following either of the two suggestions I made.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Take two hammers and slap the faces together with the same force about 30 or 40 times and you will soon start to see the results of steel to steel impact...and the barrel lug is much softer than the hammer heads.

I have no idea where 1911Tuner gets his hammer steel hardness information as compared with barrel lugs. Hammers come in all sorts of quality and hardness.

 

[freedomlover]

I don't doubt the truthfulness of Mr. Colt Representative's information regarding slide-slamming.

However, the sound alone is enough to keep me from doing it. I can't help but wince when I hear a slide-slam. It just SOUNDS like abuse, so I won't do it. But this being a free country and all, you go right ahead if ya got a hankerin' that way...

 

[Tamara]

Ankeny,

Slam it, throw it on the floor, drive over it, it's just a trashy Colt. I'll take it easy on my custom 1911's and ease the slide down.

You know, I've discussed this with several professional pistolsmiths (who do this for a living) over the years, and the answers have been nearly uniformly the opposite of that. In my best approximation of the most recent answer to the question:

"That old saw? Well, you may not want to do it on some recent low-end 'cast & MIM' gun, and you probably don't want to do it on some old ex-military Remington-Rand bullseye gun that's had all its unknown-quality internals whittled to within inches of their lives, but I'll tell you this: If you are in danger of bursting into tears over the thought of your custom racegun having its slide dropped on an empty chamber, then you don't want me to build that gun for you. See, before you take delivery, it will have had its slide dropped by me several hundred times, having been taken completely apart at frequent intervals to inspect for wear and peening, because it's my job to deliver you a superior pistol made of quality components that fit right. It's my job to ensure that trigger pull and sear engagement and barrel lockup are as unchanged as possible from round one to round one hundred to round one thousand and beyond. This is what you pay the big money for, and that is why I use quality components of known composition and hardness when building the gun."

I'm sorry that I have no Andy Taylor-esque aphorisms to embellish that with, but there you go.

FWIW, I don't, but simply because it's not necessary for my daily operation of my pistols.