Friend got harassed by the police for OC

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Kcshooter said,
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And for those who keep saying things like the statement above, I have just as much right to carry concealed as you do openly, so why the hell is it such an affront to you?

How you choose to carry your weapon isn't an affront to anyone here. I congratulate you for choosing to carry short-range defensive weaponry. That is a rational and logical choice.

You do NOT have a right to concealed carry...you have permission from the state.

Begging permission from the state to do what I have a natural right to do IS and affront to me. As it should be to all free men.
~~~~~

P.R.,

Bingo again and that is EXACTLY my point again. Thank you.

Catherine
 
No offense here but I was raised saying, Yes sir/ma'am or No sir/ma'am or fill in the blanks. I was raised in a fairly strict household yet with very loving, kind, common sense, smart parents who would NOT put up with a 'Brat' or BACK TALK aka sassing to a parent, mentor, etc. ONE LOOK meant that you knocked it off - you were expected to act like well behaved children and teens INSIDE the house, outside the house, in school, in Church, in a restaurant, shopping, etc. We had CHORES too. Responsibilities. Manners. You were raised 'properly' yet you were NOT raised to be a door mat in politics or in other ISSUES. We were raised that NO question was off limits and we had open discussions about ALL subject manners... not this or that was NOT allowed because it might OFFEND someone. There is a big difference between being OPEN and polite versus this new age P.C. garbage. Gag!

I might not ALWAYS say it NOW in every social situation but to an older person including my late parents, mentors, teachers, etc. it was VERY normal and common to say such things because GOOD MANNERS and respect for people was expected in raising a young lady or gentleman.

Emily Post manners, white gloves, clean hankies, don't LITTER, treat the other person according to the "Golden Rule" out of the Bible and because it was the right/proper THING TO DO, treat all people with respect and don't PUT one person above another person because we are ALL equal.

Just because some people THINK that they are ABOVE THE LAW AND ACT LIKE IT IN ANY PROFESSION INCLUDING POLITICS - does not make them 'god like'. If a person in ANY profession treats ME with respect - they get treated with respect back from me. Sometimes when people are real JERKS or 'high/mighty' types... I try to treat them with even more good manners and/or talk to their 'boss' because that REALLY ticks them off. Grin. Now, if the man or woman, in any profession, has NO freaking clue about x, y or z and treats ME, the customer, the taxpayer, etc. like CRAPOLA - I might just need to kick off the jogging shoes, put on MY high heels and put them in their place. I don't mean being RUDE, not being a lady, a jerk or an idiot like they are... people that don't know their own job... you can be a lady or a gentleman and follow through. GET all names, facts, etc. written down.

Disclaimer: I have never had a parking ticket or a problem with a peace officer.

I don't like people who don't do their JOBS especially when I am paying TAX dollars to support their jobs, their bennies, their overtime, their vacation, their retirement, etc. I had some of those 'winners' in my former state from the lying, RINO, anti ccw Gov. to an idiot in the county's office who was HIRED to take an election ballot issue for my former township - all of the way to the FREAKING state supreme court. We won on the county level with the judges on this issue and it went to the state capitol - the black suited folks did NOT want it on the ballot. BIG money you know! That #%(@ is another LONG story and not allowed here. Too bad those idiots did not get fired but as I told HIM... money talks and bs walks - incompetent people sometimes end up to be in a HIGHER political office! Gag a maggot time. True story.

Catherine
 
Chris in VA: I applaud you for stepping in; unfortuately your friend gave in eventually but I hope he sees that a little knowledge and get-involved-attitude will help to educate others (no matter who they are); and maybe it will also strenghten his spine back up; it seems he got a little wilted at the end.:(

With all the current cops/prior cops/related-to-a-cop members that we have here, I'm always baffled by the amount of these post we get. How many cops on here correct members of their departments when they see/here of a co-worker goofing up something related to OC'ing? If you can't come out and say "Yeah I do" then you're just as guilty, plain and simple. In the 2 military services I've been in we use the term "corrected on sight."
(Side note-DA's, Police Chief's, and Judges do come up for re-election--just something to think on.)
Now someone mentioned that a majority of cops are good, respectable, professional people; but this guy "might have had a bad day" (or something to that effect). Well, these professionals that I've met live up to that term, are respectable to the people around them, and it is returned back to them. The ones I've met that aren't, well that is also returned.

But I'm really curious as to how a judge doesn't think that the 2A applies to states, kind of baffling there.

Unlike the 1st Amendment, the 2nd has not YET been formally "incorporated" via the 14th. The 1st applies to the states but not the 2nd... YET.
Correct me if I'm wrong (I did go to public school after all), but doesn't 2 come before 14? It's seems that people are forgetting why the first 10 are called the "Bill of Rights." Our Constitution only had 10 Amendments for 4 years, then in 8 years only 2 were added. It took 61 years until the 13A added. The 2A doesn't need to be "incorporated" via anything.:scrutiny: I think to many people use this as a way out.:fire:
 
I don't think that the statistics are that HIGH where some bad guy took a gun away from an open carry man or woman. I remember reading about this 10 or so years ago though. However... I am NO expert on this and I can't quote figures verbatim. I used to WRITE about this in my 'former life' on many, many gun issues.

I think that many people in NON O.C. and NO or 'little' conceal carry states tend to think this way due to their gun laws or due to how they were raised/taught including what their fearless leaders aka politicos tell them.

It is a VERY common thing to think/say/write/question especially coming from anti O.C. Folks and even from some anti gunners. I am NOT saying that statement to anyone specific here but it is a very common 'question/statement'. This is NOT directed to the nice NY man on here, hello and I hope that you are well. I am just answering what some may have asked on here including him. He is PRO GUN - the nice New York man along with others on HERE.

JOHN LOTT and Gary Kleck mention this in their books along with many other famous authors and gun experts.

I do NOT have those figures but I think that it is VERY LOW - most people would not want to steal a gun that is already ON the person where he or she could STOP the criminal from his crime by shooting BACK. QUICK draw or fairly quick response time.

It is easier for me to open carry than to conceal carry. Easier for me to 'draw' and I happen to be a HUGE supporter of open carry for ALL people in this country and for people overseas/around the world. IT might just NIP it in the bud when it comes to perps wanting to hurt, rape, maim, kidnap, knife, shoot, gang up on some lady or man with one bad guy or a GANG of them and leave the VICTIM DEAD or left on the road to die - tossed off like trash on the side of the road by the bad people!

I think that it would STOP them in their tracks from the gitgo, they would think twice about doing the dirty deed with full intent, they might not want to take a chance with a man or a ticked off lady who is NOT willing to ROLL over and play dead when it comes to a criminal.

Catherine
 
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The military and 'most' job professions would not put up with continued abuses of x, y or z when it comes to what is right or wrong or legal or illegal because of many reasons. The non military ones don't want to get sued in this day and age.

The MILITARY would stop it almost immediately and nip it in the bud because you know what... well... I can't say it HERE. An old military saying of my late husband's. Grin.

In most job professions - you don't always have the cover ups or covering the other guy's @@@ because it WILL eventually come back and bite them in the @@@! Ouch!

It does happen in 'politics' though and in a FEW professions.

If the guy/peace officer made an honest mistake... correct him and have his superiors correct him. He or she should know the LAWS on open and/or conceal carry in his state. It is not an uncommon issue - guns!

The man or woman who has a problem with OPEN carry because an authority figure of any type or profession is ON their CASE, not only a police person, should have the TESTICULAR FORTITUDE to speak up for themselves without having anyone speak up UNLESS they ask for someone else to speak UP for them. IF you can't speak UP for yourself in an open carry issue or situation from the gitgo... well... as they say... grow a pair! You don't have to give a speech but you have the right to speak UP and correct the ILL INFORMED person NO matter who it is and where this happens.

Catherine
 
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No offense here but I was raised saying, Yes sir/ma'am or No sir/ma'am or fill in the blanks.

When I was young, all of the 7 children in our family were required to read Emily Post from cover to cover. I know manners. I was taught to say Sir or Ma'am to my elders.

I don't say it to my children. My youngest child is 32. So why would I say Sir to a 21 year old cop or even a 30 year old cop? He's not my elder; he's younger than my children. Most cops should, according to polite society rules, call me Sir.

Cop: Good afternoon, sir.
Me: Hello there, young man.
Cop: I clocked you doing 5 miles per hour over the speed limit. I'm going to have to issue you a summons. May I have your driver's license and proof of insurance, sir?
Me: Certainly. Here.
Cop: Please sign here, sir.
(I sign and return the ticket book)
Cop: Thank you, sir. Please try to keep it under the speed limit. Drive carefully and have a nice day.
Me: You be careful, too, young man. We appreciate all that you do.
(I roll up the window, turn on my turn signal, and carefully pull into traffic.)

That's how a traffic stop should go - leaving out the part where the officer, for his safety and mine, hands over his weapon until our interaction is over because that's a topic for a different thread.
 
Catherine,

I think you're a great asset to the discussions here. You're right on about the 2nd Amendment and about personal freedom and what it really means to be free. Even so, you are wrong here:

The military and 'most' job professions would not put up with continued abuses of x, y or z when it comes to what is right or wrong or legal or illegal because of many reasons. The non military ones don't want to get sued in this day and age.

The MILITARY would stop it almost immediately and nip it in the bud because you know what... well... I can't say it HERE. An old military saying of my late husband's. Grin.

In most job professions - you don't always have the cover ups or covering the other guy's @@@ because it WILL eventually come back and bite them in the @@@! Ouch!

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0804/S00413.htm

The Army and Marine Corps would, if stories like these are true, prefer to let rapists and murderers walk among them than to admit that life in the military is less than heaven on earth.
 
Not to address anyone specifically...
But you did quote me, so I'll respond.

If I interpreted that statement correctly; I read it as "I'll wait for someone else to make it happen, then I'll take advantage of their work".
No, you don't interpret that correctly. I stated several times that I have no interest in open carry for many reasons, not just because I don't want hassled. It is perfectly legal for me to do so now, yet I choose not to. If you're going to only quote a small part of the paragraph, at least take the time to read it yourself.

That kind attitude isn't much help for furthering gun rights, or any other rights for that matter.
Whether it is or isn't, I'm still not going to carry openly.

That wasn't my point at all. I don't think you are getting it. I won't be open carrying for many reasons. I don't think my choice to carry concealed as I have for a decade means I am not "doing my part" for gun rights.
I'm noticing more and more that people seem to be adopting the attitude that "someone else" will take care of "it" and don't want to get personally involved.
I am doing my part to protect myself and my family, and regardless of your opinion as to whether or not I'm doing enough for the cause, my family is what's most important to me.

Again, it is PERFECTLY LEGAL for me to do so right now and I choose not to.
 
If you aren't expecting to be hassled for OC then you need to rethink it.

So should you expect to be hassled if you wear a hat?

Should you expect to be hassled if you sport tatoos?

Should you expect to be hassled if you wear sandals rather than wing-tips?

Should you expect to be hassled if you are walking down the sidewalk instead of driving a car?

Should you expect to be hassled for inviting friends over for a barbecue?

Should you expect to be hassled for going to synagogue?

Should you expect to be hassled for drinking iced tea?

All of these activities are perfectly legal--exactly as is open carry in VA (and in TN, for that matter, with a carry permit). That being the case, you should no more expect to be hassled for OC than you should expect to be hassled for any of these or other perfectly legal activities. To expect to be hassled for them is to concede that Law Enforcement Officers are actually Personal Preference Officers. Should we concede that?
 
no you file a complaint as I have said before.............If you dont then nothing gets done, A complaint will certianly work faster than you going to jail calling a lawyer sueing the city and or the officer. Its tomorrow/next week v/s next year.

If you come out ahead on the trial you will likely get more responce in the department. A complaint will get a faster responce.

That's cute.

My last run-in with a state trooper, where I was cuffed and detained in a manager's office at WalMart for about 20 minutes and screamed at by both the state trooper and their loss prevention officer in front of other employees and a few customers, and flat out accused of being a career criminal by the state trooper, was followed up by a complaint to his CO.

http://www.songofthewinds.com/PSPResponse.jpg

The higher ups are in full agreement with this treatment here.
 
Dalepress,

Thanks for the compliment.

Regarding that story that you posted about the military, I do know that there are GOOD and BAD people in all professions including the military, police force, etc.

I know that they do and did have incidents and CRIMES in war time, in peace time and that includes various abuse stories, some rapes, some murders, etc.

I do think that in MOST cases they try to CLEAN up their own mess (Bad apples, if you will, that SPOIL the good ones in the basket.) and they TRY to not let those abuses of any kind and/or crimes done by a bad person or criminal get SWEPT under the rug.

I could be wrong because I am positive that I do NOT know every crime case in the military or in NON military situations = Civilian.

I see 'crimes' done by Congress and in the White House along with x, y or z (Which I could make an outline of here but it is Not Allowed.) that would make my straight short hair literally CURL and my B/P rise if I stated to write it all down. Those crimes are let go and vastly IGNORED... accepted as BUSINESS as USUAL. Ugh.

Thanks again. Take care and nice to meet you.

Catherine
 
All of these activities are perfectly legal--exactly as is open carry in VA (and in TN, for that matter, with a carry permit). That being the case, you should no more expect to be hassled for OC than you should expect to be hassled for any of these or other perfectly legal activities. To expect to be hassled for them is to concede that Law Enforcement Officers are actually Personal Preference Officers. Should we concede that?
I understand your point. In theory you are correct.

However, I live in the real world, and know what happens when you have a firearm exposed on your person in public without a uniform. Right or wrong, it's pretty much the reality of it.
 
A lot of that going around!

I applaud those willing to face such people for their rights! If we had open carry here, and it was not so harshly restricted id OC all the time!
 
?

whats to stop the bad guy from carrying also , Do we want to start walking around like an old western movie

I was stopped from entering a department store once because I had a fixed blade sheathed on my hip. The leo was very polite about it saying if I went in the store like that he was going to be called back about it , so I stashed it in my back pack. To me it was no harm no foul. My neighbor (a fellow gun person) had his .44 special stuck in his rubber boots . as he sat down to eat in a local restraunt Someone saw it and complained , the police came , confiscated his weapon and wrote him a summons .Cost him $250 to get his gun back
 
My last run-in with a state trooper, where I was cuffed and detained in a manager's office at WalMart for about 20 minutes and screamed at by both the state trooper and their loss prevention officer

May I ask how you ended up handcuffed in a Walmart? Did you try to steal something? Sometimes it is OK for cops to be a little strong...if you've actually done something wrong.

And, just as a counter point to your post, my complaint on a police officer a few years ago lead directly to his firing.
 
Response to the one poster...

Quote:
whats to stop the bad guy from carrying also , Do we want to start walking around like an old western movie

Snippet and quote from a post.

~~~~~


I think that it would be a good idea if we started to walk around like in the 'old west'! We would not 'force' anyone to do this but if someone wanted to exercise their God Given and/or natural rights in self defense issues... there YOU GO!

The bad guys might be OUTNUMBERED by the good guys and GALS.

There would be an EQUAL playing field in those former NO open carry or NO conceal carry states where the VICTIM would have a chance and NOT have to WAIT for a 911 response - in my former state, county and township the response time was 45 MINUTES @ night. Been there - done that!

People and politicos including EVIL ones... would know that WE the PEOPLE would not put up with any BS or TYRANNY or fill in the blank from a foreign and/or DOMESTIC ENEMY.

That would just be a beginning answer for me.

Catherine
 
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glockdriver

My neighbor (a fellow gun person) had his .44 special stuck in his rubber boots . as he sat down to eat in a local restraunt Someone saw it and complained , the police came , confiscated his weapon and wrote him a summons .Cost him $250 to get his gun back

A little more information please. Was your friend carrying legally? Does your state allow open carry?

What was your friend charged with?

If something is legal you shouldn't refrain just because a cop asks you to. If you were legally carrying your knife you should have told the cop so and cited the relevant statute. If he continues to harass you you go into the "Am I free to go?" loop

Officer, are you detaining me ( if yes see response A) or am I free to go ( if yes see response B)

A) I do not wish to make any statement or answer any questions W/ out my attorney present.

B) Thank you for your time officer. Have a nice day.
(Spoken over your shoulder as you leave the area)
 
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glockdriver

..so your solution is for us to not carry so the BGs wont carry!?!?! :scrutiny:

They already carry, so why should we have to ask, pay and prove, to excercise a right?
 
glockdriver said,
whats to stop the bad guy from carrying also , Do we want to start walking around like an old western movie

YOU have a right! You can choose to exercise that right or not to.

The bad guys, those criminally minded, don't care what the laws are. They will carry a gun when ever they choose to, no matter how illegal!

As Catherine said, there are far more good guys out there than bad guys. Wouldn't be better if all the good guys were at least as well armed as the bad guys?

I say again. Gun control laws are meant to control YOU, not the criminals. It isn't about crime, its about control.
 
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May I ask how you ended up handcuffed in a Walmart? Did you try to steal something? Sometimes it is OK for cops to be a little strong...if you've actually done something wrong.

And, just as a counter point to your post, my complaint on a police officer a few years ago lead directly to his firing.

I was standing there comparing two things, both hands full, he rushed me, I set them down just in time for him to grab me and cuff me.

The only thing I did wrong was not follow up on my complaint after I got the response letter.
 
Funny I just saw this thread today.

Whenever I go to Denny's in Richmond, I always CC. Considering that I always go to Denny's at midnight or whenever everything healthy is closed.

It seems the Denny's anywhere within 15 miles of downtown is full of the sketchiest people at night.

Winchester is considered N.VA and I wasn't surprised this happened there.
 
I don't think it's generally worth it to escalate the situation at the point of contact solely to make an academic point, potentially get arrested for whatever BS, and potentially get the patrolman into legal hot water. What the rest of the rank and file will hear in the locker room is that their buddy is getting screwed by some overzealous OC troublemakers, and the antagonism will increase wrong though it may be.

I would hope that in general, a constructive approach with the brass would yield better overall results than confrontation with a patrolman. The local gun/OC club or the NRA has a legally competent person chat with the chief after a few holes of golf, and lo, the department may issue a policy clarification for the rank and file and everyone is happy.

I realize that things are different with specific bad apples and with bad department culture in traditionally anti-RKBA jurisdictions, but on the whole across the country, I think law enforcement is overwhelmingly on our side. The lists of DAs and police officer associations endorsing pro-2A Heller amicus briefs are quite substantial, even including a whole bunch from the socialist sheep-hole that is Kalifornistan.

I applaud the intent behind using and protecting our rights, but I also think that pragmatism is helpful in dealing with a generally positive force in our society that's sometimes uninformed and/or cranky from dealing with sh*tbags all day long. I think as more ground is taken after Heller, as more statistics pile up, and more cases occur of CCW folk happening upon officers in trouble and helping out, sentiment and policy will keep shifting in our favor. And of course CCW/OC activism should help considerably.

Oh, and it should help tremendously to keep the "half honky, all donkey" out of office. The guy makes Ted Kennedy look like Pat Buchanan, serious bad news.
 
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