Giffords shooting / mass murder

[Grey_Mana]

In case you've been out having a life, and haven't seen the news
http://gawker.com/5728501/arizona-congresswoman-shot-outside-grocery-store

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/08/132764367/congresswoman-shot-in-arizona

The Ace of Spades newsite is speculating the shooter is the also guy who did the Maryland incendiary packages earlier this week (January 6th or so).

S&T notes: 20 or so rounds fired, 15 or so people shot, a Congresswoman's security detail was not as super as one might imagine but did stop the guy as soon as he paused to reload, police took 15 minutes and medical help 30 minutes to arrive. 30 minutes in response to a VIP being shot.

Please merge/delete thread if appropriate; I didn't see any other threads.

 

[Sam1911]

[STRIKE]We're holding threads on this subject for a bit until the doctors have done what they can and all details are released. There probably are some significant S&T discussions to be had, but let's wait just a bit and let the dust settle.[/STRIKE]

Ok. We've probably got as much information as there is to get about this now, so a very seriously and conscientiously considered conversation on the S&T aspects may be productive.

Remember the purpose of this sub-forum and please keep posts focused, realistic, and of the very highest quality.

Thanks,

 

[JDoe]

From what I've seen/heard with my comments in blue.

Shooter fires off 30+ rounds in about 10 seconds. When it happens it can happen fast, I'd guess many people didn't get over the "this can't be happening" stage of initial disbelief before the incident was over and the active shooter subdued.

While the shooter is attempting to reload a wounded woman grabs (never give up, keep fighting even if wounded) a loaded magazine out of the shooters hands. (This act didn't stop the active shooter but did slow him down (perhaps enough) for others to join in the defense. If she didn't attack the active shooter and he continued shooting would the two men noted below have been able to successfully subdue him?)

Shooter loads another 30+ round magazine and two men tackle (successful defense against an active shooter does not require a gun) and hold the shooter until police arrive 180 to 240 seconds later. (when seconds count...)

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

d, police took 15 minutes and medical help 30 minutes to arrive

source for these "nuggets"?

 

[JellyJar]

I can't help but wonder if there was anyone there, leo or civilian, who may have been armed? If so then did any of them try to shoot shoot back? If armed and did not try to shoot back then why didn't they at least try?

If no one else there was armed then why not? After this took place in Arizona one of the most gun friendly states in the Union?

 

[9mmepiphany]

source for these "nuggets"?

It's in the first link

 

[orvpark]

Likely the suspect was in "the crowd" security, police, and other armed people most likely could not take a shot without endangering others. A tackle was most likely the best response.

 

[walking arsenal]

A knife wouldn't be out of the question either.

The usefulness of a good blade is becoming more and more apparent in today's world.

I'm not ready to say a good knife is more useful than a gun but I am on the verge of putting them close to equal footing in arms length fighting which it seems this was.

Anyone know of a second shooter or armed citizen firing back? I keep hearing vague reports about it.

 

[gfpd707]

In case you've been out having a life, and haven't seen the news
http://gawker.com/5728501/arizona-congresswoman-shot-outside-grocery-store

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/08/132764367/congresswoman-shot-in-arizona

The Ace of Spades newsite is speculating the shooter is the also guy who did the Maryland incendiary packages earlier this week (January 6th or so).

S&T notes: 20 or so rounds fired, 15 or so people shot, a Congresswoman's security detail was not as super as one might imagine but did stop the guy as soon as he paused to reload, police took 15 minutes and medical help 30 minutes to arrive. 30 minutes in response to a VIP being shot. Preliminary reports are that the shooter was a lefty-type loser, not anybody who would particularly set off the spidey sense in advance.

Please merge/delete thread if appropriate; I didn't see any other threads.

As an EMT I can assure you it most likely didnt take minutes for medical help to arrive. They were most likely notified near the same time as the police. Medical personel will not enter a scene until it is cleared by law enforcement. I have been to scenes where we were blamed for not coming quickly enough although we were just down the street waiting for the all clear.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Anyone know of a second shooter or armed citizen firing back? I keep hearing vague reports about it.

A woman, wounded by his first mag, grabbed the second mag he was trying to load and interfered long enough for others to jump in and disarm him.

 

[bikerdoc]

Strategy- take cover, protect you and yours.

tactic- stay calm, take action if you are sure it is got a chance to suceed.

 

[Al Thompson]

This reinforces a lesson from long ago. Always watch the hands.

Good on that wounded lady for rallying the troops (by setting the example) and counterattacking. As Patton said, a good plan quickly and violently executed is better that a great plan executed later.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I can't help but wonder if there was anyone there, leo or civilian, who may have been armed? If so then did any of them try to shoot shoot back?....

But the first barrage was over in about 10 seconds. It's difficult to see how a defender in the a crowd could have positioned himself to take a shot without endangering bystanders in much less time (including reaction time), unless the defender just happened to be right next to the gunman.

A knife wouldn't be out of the question either....

But now we have a live suspect in custody. That will assist the investigation. Maybe learning what triggered this can help. Maybe there were accomplices.

...A tackle was most likely the best response.

Exactly -- and it was made possible by the courage of a wounded woman who was able to impede the gunman's reload.

 

[Harley Quinn]

This all happened in a town, state where open carry is allowed... Along with a lot of CCW...

 

[bikerdoc]

This is a copy of my reponse in General

My public response in church today had nothing to do with guns and/or politics it was our societal lack to identify the mentally ill, the angry, and the hopeless.
Families ignore the warning signs, mental health agencies budgets have been cut to the bone.
If you know a strange actor and dont reach out react, or report, are you not an accomplice before the fact, or even worse less of a person?

All the past problems with mass shooters were acknowledged after the fact. Maybe it is time we act before the fact.

Just my .02

 

[JoeSlomo]

Some considerations...

1. Events of this nature make an immediate armed response largely dependent on proximity to the shooter. I envision a large scale football huddle that suddenly breaks when the shooting starts, and people running in all directions masking the shooter from any potential shot. IMO, closing the distance to the shooter on foot would be required to stop the madness, as I don't believe you could get a clear shot outside of extremely close range due to folks running amok.

2. The presence of embedded security would make an immediate armed response far more dangerous than most every other defensive encounter. While I don't believe this event had a dedicated armed security team, some political events do have them, be it local, state, or federal level. I would not want to be an armed "good guy" in the crowd at such an event, as the security detail would have no way of knowing my intent, and would more than likely treat me as a threat.

3. Fitness and mobility are survival multipliers. Being fit and mobile would enhance your ability to either close with and stop a shooter, or move to a position of safety. Regular exercise and fitness should also be considered as tools used for defending yourself and your family.

 

[Quaamik]

The situation probably cound't have been stopped any other way. Assuming the crowd was as tight as was reported, and that they were trapped (exit routes blocked by the position of a table, the gunman and a column) anyone who was armed and outisde of immediate contct with the gunman probably couldn't fire on him.

A knife wouldn't have probably been much better. Stabbing or slashing him wouldn't have stopped the reload faster than grabbing the magazine away. Once he was down, it would have been hard to justify slicing him up to the police afterwards. Before he needed to reload, it would have just made you the next victim (though you might have injured him enough to give someone else a chance as he shot you and delt with his wound)

 

[zxcvbob]

So if you find yourself behind a crazy person in a crowd with a gun, what's the quickest way to take the fight out of him if you get the chance? Break his neck? Knife in the kidneys? What if you have no training whatsoever, does this change anything?

We had a nutbar come into our church a few years ago, stood in the aisle and was shouting at the preacher about the The Passion of the Christ movie. I was in another part of the building and heard about it later. He didn't have a gun (that we know of) and it ended without violence, but if he had pulled a gun, there was an usher 20 feet behind him who didn't have a clue. OTOH, it would be pretty bad to kill the guy if he was unarmed and just shouting.

In the church where I am now, I could be that usher... I assume the usher should quietly close the distance so if he did pull a weapon you could be on top of him immediately...

[am I in the right thread or should I have started another one?]

 

[RobNDenver]

Gray,

Congressmen and Women generally don't have a security detail. They travel as private citizens, unless they have been threatened or are members of the house or senate leadership.

Loughner very likely knew that the Congresswoman would be meeting with constituents and doing her job, without a protective detail.

That is likely to change.

 

[Quaamik]

zxcvbob wrote:
So if you find yourself behind a crazy person in a crowd with a gun, what's the quickest way to take the fight out of him if you get the chance? Break his neck? Knife in the kidneys? What if you have no training whatsoever, does this change anything?

I'd say to grab him by the neck and shooting arm - provided he hasn't started shooting yet.

If he'se fired of even a single shot, you would probably be able to justify immediat lethal force (shot in the back, knife in the back), but until then lethal force is going to be iffy if you have the ability to grapple with him or leave.

Just think what a DA (especially and anti self defense DA) would do if you slipped a knife into his kidneys and killed him, or crippled him for life, and the gun turned out to be a fake..........

 

[Quaamik]

Loughner very likely knew that the Congresswoman would be meeting with constituents and doing her job, without a protective detail.

The news was/is reporting that Loughner had met with / confronted the Congresswoman before and had been invited to this event.

 

[JoeSlomo]

So if you find yourself behind a crazy person in a crowd with a gun, what's the quickest way to take the fight out of him if you get the chance?

Get him to the ground as fast and hard as possible. While you still have to deal with whatever he is holding, it is much easier for any willing soul/s to assist by simply sitting on / dog-piling the dude to immobilize him.

 

[zxcvbob]

Get him to the ground as fast and hard as possible. While you still have to deal with whatever he is holding, it is much easier for any willing soul/s to assist by simply sitting on / dog-piling the dude to immobilize him.

So kick (or stomp) the back of his knees while pulling him down forcefully by shoulders? That should take anybody down hard without really doing much damage. But he ends up face up instead of down, so is not necessarily out of the fight yet.

 

[9mmepiphany]

You're actually better with him face up...most folks have less strength to lift their arms than to push off the ground

 

[NMGonzo]

Mindset on the lady!

Fight fight fight!!!!!

And yes ... always watch the hands.