Good news in Brazil!
- Thread starter roscoe
- Start date
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Cosmoline
Member
I beg to differ. EVERYONE has a natural right to keep and bear arms. In Brazil the government has been taking this right away piece by piece for decades now. This was to be the coup de grace eliminating the last little bastion of legal firearm ownership among civilians.
Cosmoline
Member
horge said:It ain't in our Constitution either, honey.
But just you try to 'referendum' your way into disarming us here in my country.
Come on, now... I double-dog dare you.
---
Brasileiros armados, eu saudo-o todo!
Mabuhay!
Yee haw!
longeyes
member
Fletchette
Member
Hurrah for Brazil! 
A lot of the stories about this have mentioned the NRA. Were US RKBA groups involved in this or is that just spin? It would be really fantastic if NRA would put some of their war chest into seed money for a Brazilian RKBA lobby.
P.S. IANSA still hasn't updated their page, I think they're in shock
P.S. IANSA still hasn't updated their page, I think they're in shock
beerslurpy
member
ROFLCOPTER. This was another country?
beerslurpy
member
Silver Bullet said:
Step 1: Pass a law disarming your intended victims
Step 3: World domination and profit!
So lets see- 70 percent of Brazil would rather have a gun than trust the government. What will it matter if they pass such a law? You think the army is going to volunteer to get themselves shot at by their own countrymen over something they probably agree is stupid?
Brazil is actually turning out pretty nicely by all accounts.
TrybalRage
Member
They were talking about Brazil on the BBC this morning, they had some guy from some "firearms something or other" out of Geneva offering his take;
All he was saying was what a shame it was that the Brazilian people had done this, and when the reporter asked him if maybe people were safer if they armed themselves, he made some comment about "The Americans" thinking this when they were, in fact, "just putting themselves in danger of being injured with their own weapons."
Also such gems as "We need to find which guns are being used in crimes the most and then regulate those guns." and "People who carry weapons rarely use them in self defense, they are just more at risk of injury."
Scumbags.
All he was saying was what a shame it was that the Brazilian people had done this, and when the reporter asked him if maybe people were safer if they armed themselves, he made some comment about "The Americans" thinking this when they were, in fact, "just putting themselves in danger of being injured with their own weapons."
Also such gems as "We need to find which guns are being used in crimes the most and then regulate those guns." and "People who carry weapons rarely use them in self defense, they are just more at risk of injury."
Scumbags.
Creeping Incrementalism
Member
Next batter, the San Francisco referendum.
http://www.sanfranban.com/
http://www.sfgunban.com/
It's a total handgun prohibition (gun grab), and a ban on transfer of long guns.
Even the local police are against it because, I believe, it won't let officers keep personal sidearms for off-duty use/protection.
http://www.sanfranban.com/
http://www.sfgunban.com/
It's a total handgun prohibition (gun grab), and a ban on transfer of long guns.
Even the local police are against it because, I believe, it won't let officers keep personal sidearms for off-duty use/protection.
Silver Bullet
Member
Seems like a few months ago there was a thread here with some folks griping about the NRA publishing some of their materials (or maybe it was part of their web site) in a foreign language, probably Spanish.
Of course, Brazil speaks Portuguese, so they would still have to translate, but the potential for world-wide RKBA revolution resulting from the NRA's foresight would seem to be enormous.
I am glad it failed BUT
If it would have passed then the effects of the ban would have been usable in any future arguments about gun control. The crime rate would have risen proving very clearly that a ban has a bad effect on crime. Then if they would have overturned it 5 years down the road and crime went down then it would be even more proof.
If it would have passed then the effects of the ban would have been usable in any future arguments about gun control. The crime rate would have risen proving very clearly that a ban has a bad effect on crime. Then if they would have overturned it 5 years down the road and crime went down then it would be even more proof.
K-Romulus
Member
photo of a ban supporter in Brazil
http://www.wtop.com/index.php?nid=105&sid=599787
Gee, imagine that?
Maybe she can now focus her energy toward something that will actually help Brazilian society, like feeding the poor or something . . .
http://www.wtop.com/index.php?nid=105&sid=599787
Gee, imagine that?
Maybe she can now focus her energy toward something that will actually help Brazilian society, like feeding the poor or something . . .
Mulliga
Member
Nice. I met a Brazilian shooter a couple months ago who was talking about this; he should be pleased.
wingnutx
Member
gc70 said:
Same thing happened here in Maricopa County with a tax to fund the stadium. One outraged voter went to a council meeting and shot a councilwoman in the ass before he was restrained.
NickEllis
Member
Loci of violence in Brazil
I think I posed this in the wrong forum, over in general gun topics. Sorry, I am reposting here. Mods, feel free to redistribute.
Having spent a great deal of time in Brazil, including my childhood, the violence there is an interesting factor that should be studied at a deeper level by our own sociologists. In a country of comparative land mass to the lower 48 states, the large criminal elements are located almost entirely within the large central three or four cities - Sao Paulo and its metropolis, Rio de Janeiro with its large gang and drug related culture, Belo Horizonte, and now in the far south with its access to Paraguay/Uraguay Porto Alegre. In these cities, the local governments have almost entirely regulated gun ownership and use; the criminal elements of course have full access to anything they want, including a full array of military weapons unavailable even to the police, anti-personel mines, and stinger misseles. In the large other portions of the country, guns are owned and used widely by the civilian population, and has no such trouble. For example, in the north, Roraima, where I lived, guns are considered every day tools, in a land of farmers which encounter daily dangers from pumas, crocodiles, and a wide varray of other issues.
However, the cities pose and entirely different set of problems, that of the human crime element, and the lack of available policing. Perhaps the best move that the NRA and anti-gun control elements did in Brazil was to question the ability of the state to protect the citizen. The people responded in a resounding NO!!! they are not; two anectodes from my own life in Brazil illustrate this strong distrust in a police force that is underpaid, strikes at will, often recieve their only pay - not from the state, which is often months behind pay schedul - but rather from the criminal elements which line their wallets. Interestingly, major populations centers like Rio trust the gangs more then the police to keep order within the Bairros. As for the two stories:
1) when I lived in Campinas, Sao Paulo, a very good friend of the family lived about 20 minutes away. We had been friends for years, both families, I had dated their daughter, was close friends with their son, our parents went to church together. The father is American (houston area), the mother is English, the children born in Brazil. Their cousins and family lived there with them as well, all americans. Four years ago, at the height of the kidnapping wave that swept Campinas in the late 90's-00's, their cousin, Sunny, was kidnapped and held for ransom by a gang element in the city, an offshoot of the "Red Hand" gang so prevelant in Rio. He had previously been held up that week, along with his sister and younger brother - now the Gang returned and kidnapped him. You have to understand, Sunny was one of those classic American types, rough and tumble, hard-ass, from the sticks of Texas. After three days, when an opportunity presented itself as the gang was relatively drunk on cachasa, he grabbed the leader, whose name was Juarez deMarco, stole his gun, and killed three gang members as he escaped. His return was of course with much fanfare, our church through a party, it was rather an amazing story. The next weekend, the police showed up at Sunny's parent's door, with a warrent to search the house. They removed all weapons from the house as "evidence", including the .45 springfield he had used to kill Juarez. The next morning, a truck-load of gang members swung by the house as Sunny and his father were playing soccer in the front yard. Sunny ran to the house, yelling for his mom to get the guns, only to realize they were gone, taken as "Evidence." Sunny was shot there, slowly, as retaliation for his escape and killing of Juarez. He died in his mother's arms. No police action was taken. Only after an independent investigator was hired by the family was evidence uncovered that the police department had been on the take the entire time, and had removed the guns in preparation of a retaliation attack. The funeral of Sunny was full of grief, but even more by anger. Since that time, five gang members of that group have been found shot and killed, left on the public square, with no indication of who or why they were shot.
2) July, 2003. My parents, along with my younger brother and sister, live in Porto Alegre, Brazil. In 2003, as my brother was riding down the street on the way to basketball practice, he was jumped by four people, well known criminal elements of the area. When they tried to steal his bike, he fought them; the broke a brick over his head, kicked him in the face multiple times, and ran off with the bike. When my father went to report the crime at the police station, he found that the police were on strike that month, and the sergent in charge told him there was "nothing he could do." No file would be reported, no action taken, even though these men were well known for their criminal activity. However, the seargent told my father the following: the name, address, and daily activity of this man, where he could be found at certain hours. He told him: "you find this man, you kill him, and you throw him into the river, and you will be doing us all a favor. We won't stop you, we won't come and find you. If you want something done, you must do it yourself."
I am not condoning this kind of action, although I think that it must be taken into account as an option in a society that offers no rule by law, but instead by the gun. My father, as a missionary, made the decision not to follow up on that plan. I am not sure what I would have done in a similar situation.
Here is the main point: in a place like Brazil, to remove all guns from the people, as happened to Sunny, would be to completely expose them to the will and ire of any criminal element, or any predator. This is no longer theory, but rather a current, simple fact of modern society. It is no wonder that the people of Brazil chose to vote down this referendum, knowing full well the general incompetency of the police, the viciousness of the criminal element, and their own need to fight for survival. I applaud the Brazilian people for taking the initiative to reject this measure. I hope that they will take MUCH further steps in developing a system in which all people - not simply the senators, the rich, the police, and the criminals - are entitled to carry firearms on a daily basis, an option which is not now available to the normal person who cannot pay thousands of dollars a year, renewing his license on a yearly basis. Perhaps, and I pray that it will be, this will be a catalyst for change in that society. As someone who loves Brazil, who would love to take my soon-to-be bride there, perhaps even to live there and teach part-time, I hate the fact that I do not have access to the protection that I would need if I were to take my loved-ones there. I have high hopes, and say a hearty "vai Brasil! Estou muito feliz por voces, e orando por todos voces tambem."
I think I posed this in the wrong forum, over in general gun topics. Sorry, I am reposting here. Mods, feel free to redistribute.
Having spent a great deal of time in Brazil, including my childhood, the violence there is an interesting factor that should be studied at a deeper level by our own sociologists. In a country of comparative land mass to the lower 48 states, the large criminal elements are located almost entirely within the large central three or four cities - Sao Paulo and its metropolis, Rio de Janeiro with its large gang and drug related culture, Belo Horizonte, and now in the far south with its access to Paraguay/Uraguay Porto Alegre. In these cities, the local governments have almost entirely regulated gun ownership and use; the criminal elements of course have full access to anything they want, including a full array of military weapons unavailable even to the police, anti-personel mines, and stinger misseles. In the large other portions of the country, guns are owned and used widely by the civilian population, and has no such trouble. For example, in the north, Roraima, where I lived, guns are considered every day tools, in a land of farmers which encounter daily dangers from pumas, crocodiles, and a wide varray of other issues.
However, the cities pose and entirely different set of problems, that of the human crime element, and the lack of available policing. Perhaps the best move that the NRA and anti-gun control elements did in Brazil was to question the ability of the state to protect the citizen. The people responded in a resounding NO!!! they are not; two anectodes from my own life in Brazil illustrate this strong distrust in a police force that is underpaid, strikes at will, often recieve their only pay - not from the state, which is often months behind pay schedul - but rather from the criminal elements which line their wallets. Interestingly, major populations centers like Rio trust the gangs more then the police to keep order within the Bairros. As for the two stories:
1) when I lived in Campinas, Sao Paulo, a very good friend of the family lived about 20 minutes away. We had been friends for years, both families, I had dated their daughter, was close friends with their son, our parents went to church together. The father is American (houston area), the mother is English, the children born in Brazil. Their cousins and family lived there with them as well, all americans. Four years ago, at the height of the kidnapping wave that swept Campinas in the late 90's-00's, their cousin, Sunny, was kidnapped and held for ransom by a gang element in the city, an offshoot of the "Red Hand" gang so prevelant in Rio. He had previously been held up that week, along with his sister and younger brother - now the Gang returned and kidnapped him. You have to understand, Sunny was one of those classic American types, rough and tumble, hard-ass, from the sticks of Texas. After three days, when an opportunity presented itself as the gang was relatively drunk on cachasa, he grabbed the leader, whose name was Juarez deMarco, stole his gun, and killed three gang members as he escaped. His return was of course with much fanfare, our church through a party, it was rather an amazing story. The next weekend, the police showed up at Sunny's parent's door, with a warrent to search the house. They removed all weapons from the house as "evidence", including the .45 springfield he had used to kill Juarez. The next morning, a truck-load of gang members swung by the house as Sunny and his father were playing soccer in the front yard. Sunny ran to the house, yelling for his mom to get the guns, only to realize they were gone, taken as "Evidence." Sunny was shot there, slowly, as retaliation for his escape and killing of Juarez. He died in his mother's arms. No police action was taken. Only after an independent investigator was hired by the family was evidence uncovered that the police department had been on the take the entire time, and had removed the guns in preparation of a retaliation attack. The funeral of Sunny was full of grief, but even more by anger. Since that time, five gang members of that group have been found shot and killed, left on the public square, with no indication of who or why they were shot.
2) July, 2003. My parents, along with my younger brother and sister, live in Porto Alegre, Brazil. In 2003, as my brother was riding down the street on the way to basketball practice, he was jumped by four people, well known criminal elements of the area. When they tried to steal his bike, he fought them; the broke a brick over his head, kicked him in the face multiple times, and ran off with the bike. When my father went to report the crime at the police station, he found that the police were on strike that month, and the sergent in charge told him there was "nothing he could do." No file would be reported, no action taken, even though these men were well known for their criminal activity. However, the seargent told my father the following: the name, address, and daily activity of this man, where he could be found at certain hours. He told him: "you find this man, you kill him, and you throw him into the river, and you will be doing us all a favor. We won't stop you, we won't come and find you. If you want something done, you must do it yourself."
I am not condoning this kind of action, although I think that it must be taken into account as an option in a society that offers no rule by law, but instead by the gun. My father, as a missionary, made the decision not to follow up on that plan. I am not sure what I would have done in a similar situation.
Here is the main point: in a place like Brazil, to remove all guns from the people, as happened to Sunny, would be to completely expose them to the will and ire of any criminal element, or any predator. This is no longer theory, but rather a current, simple fact of modern society. It is no wonder that the people of Brazil chose to vote down this referendum, knowing full well the general incompetency of the police, the viciousness of the criminal element, and their own need to fight for survival. I applaud the Brazilian people for taking the initiative to reject this measure. I hope that they will take MUCH further steps in developing a system in which all people - not simply the senators, the rich, the police, and the criminals - are entitled to carry firearms on a daily basis, an option which is not now available to the normal person who cannot pay thousands of dollars a year, renewing his license on a yearly basis. Perhaps, and I pray that it will be, this will be a catalyst for change in that society. As someone who loves Brazil, who would love to take my soon-to-be bride there, perhaps even to live there and teach part-time, I hate the fact that I do not have access to the protection that I would need if I were to take my loved-ones there. I have high hopes, and say a hearty "vai Brasil! Estou muito feliz por voces, e orando por todos voces tambem."
P. Plainsman
Member
You know what, that's a good idea.
Cheers to the Brazilians.
NickEllis
Member
Brazil gun laws
Though the gun laws of Brazil are expansive, complicated, and often convoluted, one can make reference to one particular document, which can be summarized as follows:
LAW Nº 9.437, 20TH FEBRUARY 1997.
established the National System of Arms Institute
Chapter 1: establishes the juristiction in the entire republic
Chapter 2: article two: mandates the registration of all firearms (which are not prohibited) in the national terretories, based on the evidence of need as justified by the Institute.
Chapter 3: of transportation - may be transported outside of the residence of the register when such person posesses 1) a temporally limited registration; 2) proof of need; and 3) legal proof of technical and psychological capacity to do so. 4) Such permission will only be given in special cases and exceptional cases. 5) such permission will be taxed in accordance with federal policy.
Chapter 4) of penalties and crimes: the possession, transportation, fabrication, sale, rent, reception, loaning, (ok, any other use, my words) without said (above) provisions will be punishable by 2 years jail time and fine, minimum.
the same for those who mimic a gun in the use of a crime, or to terrorize the public.
mandadets a mimimum age of 21 to possess a firearm.
total costs to obtain a legal portable arm provision: $1950
These are basic minimums, not counting the legalities of certain arms. No weapons may be bought with a "military round" (anything over .38 for a handgun, no shotguns over 20ga, etc.) A permit is required to purchase ammunition.
Fairly draconian? nawww..... I hope this starts things moving. Of course, all the criminals have the outlawed weapons and calibres...
addition:I have been in the states since 2000 for school and work, so these are outdated.
Though the gun laws of Brazil are expansive, complicated, and often convoluted, one can make reference to one particular document, which can be summarized as follows:
LAW Nº 9.437, 20TH FEBRUARY 1997.
established the National System of Arms Institute
Chapter 1: establishes the juristiction in the entire republic
Chapter 2: article two: mandates the registration of all firearms (which are not prohibited) in the national terretories, based on the evidence of need as justified by the Institute.
Chapter 3: of transportation - may be transported outside of the residence of the register when such person posesses 1) a temporally limited registration; 2) proof of need; and 3) legal proof of technical and psychological capacity to do so. 4) Such permission will only be given in special cases and exceptional cases. 5) such permission will be taxed in accordance with federal policy.
Chapter 4) of penalties and crimes: the possession, transportation, fabrication, sale, rent, reception, loaning, (ok, any other use, my words) without said (above) provisions will be punishable by 2 years jail time and fine, minimum.
the same for those who mimic a gun in the use of a crime, or to terrorize the public.
mandadets a mimimum age of 21 to possess a firearm.
total costs to obtain a legal portable arm provision: $1950
These are basic minimums, not counting the legalities of certain arms. No weapons may be bought with a "military round" (anything over .38 for a handgun, no shotguns over 20ga, etc.) A permit is required to purchase ammunition.
Fairly draconian? nawww..... I hope this starts things moving. Of course, all the criminals have the outlawed weapons and calibres...
addition:I have been in the states since 2000 for school and work, so these are outdated.
DRZinn
Member
Talvez tenha mesmo um pouco de esperança para o Brasil.
Mas com o Lula lá, eu duvido.
Mas com o Lula lá, eu duvido.
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